The Jewish people in Egypt as slaves

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Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
 
Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
Well, for starters, why would you think that Rameses was the Pharaoh of the Exodus and that the Israelites built the pyramids? Is it because of Mr. DeMille?
 
Well, for starters, why would you think that Rameses was the Pharaoh of the Exodus and that the Israelites built the pyramids? Is it because of Mr. DeMille?
Haha try Exodus 1:11

NIV
So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.
KJV
Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.
So it was sometimes when a Rameses would have a city built for him, they were slaves, and oh look it is for Pharaoh
 
I doubt the Pharaoh was Ramses. If, like Josephus proposes, the Hyksos are truly linked to the Exodus, then the Pharaoh would have probably been Seqenenre Tao or Kamose?

If a second hypothesis, the circa 1450 date for Exodus, the Pharaoh would be either Thutmose III or Amenhotep II. But I may be wrong… 😃 Just my opinion.
 
Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
The pyramids are older than the Exodus. Much older.

The Bible does not mention them, however, it does mention the building of a city called Rameses, which became the starting point of the Exodus. Presumably, it was named for the ruler of the time, but we do not know.

Egyptians did not record negative events in their histories; and the plaguing of the Pharaoh, followed by the escape of thousands of slaves, would definitely have been one of those.

ICXC NIKA
 
So it was sometimes when a Rameses would have a city built for him, they were slaves, and oh look it is for Pharaoh
First of all, the term “store-cities” (‘ārê misəkənwōṯ) does not necessarily mean “massive storage facilities the size of a city.” The other occurrences of ‘ārê misəkənwōṯ in the Hebrew Bible are found in the context of Solomon’s building projects (1 Kings 9:19; 2 Chronicles 8:4-6) and those of Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 17:12). The thing is, tripartite, pillared halls have been found in Iron Age II contexts at sites such as Megiddo, Hazor and Beer-Sheba, the original function of which is unclear and hotly contested. While the traditional understanding is that they were “stables,” it now seems to be preferable to interpret them as storehouses. Assuming that these are the ‘ārê misəkənwōṯ of Kings and Chronicles, they actually occupy only a small area in a given city. With this reality in mind, it would be wrong to envision the ‘ārê misəkənwōṯ of Exodus as massive storage facilities the size of a city any more than one would consider Megiddo a city purely for storage. As in the Iron Age II Israelite cities, the Egyptian storage units were closely associated with administrative centers and temples. Take for example Ramesses II’s Ramesseum in western Thebes: the temple proper was made of stone, but it is surrounded by more than 160 vaulted storage chambers and various ancillary rooms (housing the temple staff and workshops that supported the temple economy), all made of mud brick. Surrounding the entire complex was a mud brick wall. In other words, the ‘ārê misəkənwōṯ the Israelites were building were perhaps not necessarily Pithom and Raamses proper, but storehouses within those cities.


‘Ahab’s Stables’ (aka ‘Solomon’s Stables’), Megiddo

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Stables/storehouses, Hazor

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Tripartite building, Beer-Sheba

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From right to left: plans of buildings at Hazor and Megiddo; reconstruction of a pillared building at Beer-sheba


The Ramesseum

As for the name “Raamses,” there is an idea that the name which appears in Exodus was just applied retroactively to the site that the Israelites were supposed to be holding construction jobs on.

P.S. The passage goes literally in Hebrew like this: “and they set upon him [Israel] nobles (of) task-works (so) as to afflict him in their burdens and he builds store-cities (for) Par’oh Pithom and Raamses.”
 
As for the name “Raamses,” there is an idea that the name which appears in Exodus was just applied retroactively to the site that the Israelites were supposed to be holding construction jobs on.

P.S. The passage goes literally in Hebrew like this: “and they set upon him [Israel] nobles (of) task-works (so) as to afflict him in their burdens and he builds store-cities (for) Par’oh Pithom and Raamses.”
How reliable is this “biblearchaeology” website? These people seem to advocate for the literal historicity of the bible, which may sound attractive at first, but some people go too off the board with this (like some christian fundamentalists do).
 
[snip]

Egyptians did not record negative events in their histories; and the plaguing of the Pharaoh, followed by the escape of thousands of slaves, would definitely have been one of those.

ICXC NIKA
As I understand it, it wasn’t just thousands of slaves. From wiki:

Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[19]

When a country loses @ 40% of its population it’s going to leave a mark whether their historians record the reasons for it or not. As far as I know, the Bible is the only evidence for such a significant demographic shift. Their unsympathetic neighbors didn’t record it – or take advantage of it; their other, mundane records, didn’t reflect it.

(Btw, ponder that last wiki sentence while recalling that the Israelites didn’t begin to cross the Red Sea until Pharaoh’s army was already within view and were yet still able, somehow, to get across before he arrived at the opposite shoreline.)
 
As I understand it, it wasn’t just thousands of slaves. From wiki:

Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[19]

When a country loses @ 40% of its population it’s going to leave a mark whether their historians record the reasons for it or not. As far as I know, the Bible is the only evidence for such a significant demographic shift. Their unsympathetic neighbors didn’t record it – or take advantage of it; their other, mundane records, didn’t reflect it.

(Btw, ponder that last wiki sentence while recalling that the Israelites didn’t begin to cross the Red Sea until Pharaoh’s army was already within view and were yet still able, somehow, to get across before he arrived at the opposite shoreline.)
There have been studies over the past twenty-five years trying to guess the population of Canaan and Israel at different periods. The general estimate is that during the Early Bronze Age (ca. 2600 BC), the maximum population was around 150,000, with the figure slightly lowering to around 140,000 for the Middle Bronze Age II (ca. 2000-1500 BC). In Iron Age II Israel, the population of the Northern and Southern kingdoms seem to have swelled to between 750,000 and 900,000, although another study gives a much lower figure of 460,000. One may question the accuracy of these studies, but even if the projected totals were doubled, which is an highly unlikely figure, several million Israelites (600,000 men plus women, children, older men, and the Levites) would simply have overwhelmed the inhabitants of Canaan in the Late Bronze Age. But we have no evidence for such a massive influx.

As for Egypt, the population count of Egypt under the first dynasties (ca. 3050-2686 BC) was possibly between one and two million inhabitants, rising slowly until the end of the Old Kingdom (ca. 2686-2181 BC) when a century of low Nile floods and the decay of the central power with its role of hoarding and redistributing grain surpluses caused famines which killed many of the very young and the old. There are no records of similarly long periods of what looks like population decline after the restoration of order which marked the beginning of the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2134 BC). Over the centuries there was a steady influx of foreigners, often driven by drought or overpopulation in their homelands, such as the Nubians, Asiatics (Canaanites?), the Hyksos, the Sea Peoples, or the Libyans. They can have added but relatively little to the population size: the numbers of these migrants and conquerors were not very large compared to the indigenous Egyptian population, and many of them were mostly absorbed over the centuries after having had separate identities for a few generations.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/egypt-population-growth.gif
OK: Old Kingdom
MK: Middle Kingdom
NK: New Kingdom
LP: Late Period
It has been estimated that at the beginning of the pharaonic period the population count was about one million, and that at time of the Roman conquest about 5 million people lived in Egypt, give or take a million or so.
The sizes of the dips during the Intermediate Periods are arbitrary.
It is true that thinking that a few million Israelites escaped from Egypt is an unrealistic and an impractical figure. For starters, the entire population of Egypt during say, the New Kingdom (ca. 1550-1069 BC) and especially the Ramesside period (1292-1069 BC) was probably approximately only two to three million. While the unnamed Pharaoh of Exodus 1 was indeed worried about the burgeoning Hebrew population, it is simply inconceivable that three to four million Hebrews (and other non-Egyptians from the “mixed-multitude” of Exodus 12:38) could have lived within the restricted area of the northeastern Delta. If there were 600,000 able-bodied Hebrew men, they could have simply just walked away from bondage at any time they chose!

There is also the problem of the Pharaoh dispatching only 600 chariots to round up the millions of escaping Israelites and others. While a figure of 600 chariots is not too unlikely (horse stables that could accomodate to up to 460 horses have been found at Pi-Ramesses; stables would have also been present in and around the capital and at other strategic sites, such as the frontier town of Tjaru), the point is that the Pharaoh could have dispatched more chariots than he did.

Based on a careful study of ranks, titles and organization of the Egyptian army during the New Kingdom, Alan Schulman estimated that the army during the height of the empire was 20,000 strong, and no larger than 25,000. Never would have been the entire army concentrated in a single location, even on a major military expedition, as there would have been troops stationed in garrisons at Canaan, the dozen or so forts that stretched across north Sinai, in the Wadi Tumilat Corridor, and in Nubia. Not to mention that the size of armies elsewhere in the Ancient Near East are minuscule when compared to 600,000. One of the largest battles in ancient history, the battle of Qarqar, was fought between Shalmaneser III’s 100,000-strong army (according to Assyrian sources, at least; modern estimates believe that the number was much smaller) against an alliance of twelve (or eleven) kings, whose military force is listed in the Kurkh monolith as being comprised of 3,940 chariots, 2,900 cavalry and camels, and around 53,000 infantry. Still a far cry from 600,000 fighting men.

In fact, the number is seemingly ignored by other passages, where the Israelites are shown as not being able to match or exceed the indigenous population of Canaan. Exodus 23:30, for instance, has Yhwh saying to Moses: “Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land.” The spies who reported to Moses in Numbers 13 (v. 27-28) apparently believed that Israel did not have the needed strength to take the land: “We came to the land to which you sent us. It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. However, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large.” One wonders why the Israelites with a supposed army of 600,000 would have been very pessimistic about their ability to conquer these cities. Jericho, which is said to be the first city attacked by the Israelites (Joshua 6), at its maximal size measured only 300 x 140 meters, approximately the size of seven football fields. Hazor, currently recognized as the largest city in ancient Canaan (cf. Joshua 11:10), occupied around 210 acres, with a population of 33,000-42,000 for the Middle Bronze Age (it became somewhat smaller by the Late Bronze Age). While Jericho is a small city by Levantine standards and while Hazor is formidable, cities like these should not have posed much of a problem for a 600,000-strong army. In fact, an army of that size could fight on many fronts at the same time, rather than fighting in a unified manner and attempting to take one city at a time.

Finally, we are told that in the battle against Ai (Joshua 7:2-5), Joshua is reported to have dispatched only three ’ălāfîm (traditionally “three thousand”) Israelites to take this site “for they [the Israelites] are so few” (v. 3). Thirty-six men were killed, and apparently this was regarded as a major defeat and a cause for national mourning (v. 6-9), when this loss is negligible out of 3,000 troops, let alone out of 600,000. So what’s going on here?
 
[snip]

So what’s going on here?
If you’re asking me (LOL), based upon my casual reading on the subject, it reflects an invented history designed to make Israel appear to be greater than it ever actually was.
 
There is an idea that the word used in these instances, ’elef, is being mistranslated.

From a linguistic standpoint, while the word ’elef could mean ‘thousand’, it also has the meaning of (military) ‘unit’, ‘clan’, ‘squad’, or ‘family’. It is used in the sense of ‘clan’ in Judges 6:15 (“Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan (’aləpî) is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house”), and modern translations such as the ESV I used above understand it as such. In the case of Exodus 12:1, however, the translation “six hundred clans” is not feasible since the word is applied to hagəḇārîm, traditionally “men” but also “warriors” (cf. 2 Samuel 23:8).

The translation “unit” for ’elef is another option. In 1 Samuel 17:18, Jesse directs David to present ten cheeses “to the commander of their thousand (ləśar-hā’ālef)” (cf. KJV, RSV, NRSV, JPS, ESV, NASB). Some recognize it to be a title: “commanding officer” (so in the JB, NEB, and NET) or “field officer” (NAB), while others understand it to refer to a unit (cf. NIV). Somewhat related to this is the proposal to repoint ’ālef to read ’alluf “tribal chief” or “fully armed man.” (In a few cases, such as in Deuteronomy 7:13; 28:4, 18, 51; Psalm 8:7; Isaiah 30:24, ’elef even seems to mean a flock or ‘herd’ of cattle - the word after all seemingly being related to 'alef ‘ox’, which is also the name of the very first letter of the Proto-Canaanite alphabet and its descendants.)

With these possibilities, we’ll look at how scholars have interpreted the six hundred ’elef of Exodus. Those who take it to literally mean “six hundred thousand” are divided into two camps: on the one side are those who believed that several million people were involved, like many of the 19th century explorers of Sinai, as well as some present-day literalists like Walter Kaiser, Jr. and Robert Cornuke. On the other side, meanwhile, are those who interpret the number as being an exaggeration, either for theological purposes, or as a reflection of the supposed Priestly source (P)'s belief that such a figure represented historical reality.

Now it is true that the hyperbolic use of numbers, especially in military settings, is well attested in ancient sources, even in the Bible itself: one example being in 2 Chronicles 14:9, where Zerah the Cushite’s army is said to number one million. Assyrian annals often contain very large numbers in military contexts (cf. Shalmaneser’s army in the battle of Qarqar above), and exaggeration or hyperbole might be the intention. Egyptian military texts also use numbers such as thousands (ḫ3), tens of thousands (ḏba), or hundreds of thousands (ḥfn) in a hyperbolic manner. However, these numbers are not usually modified by a numeral like six or seven. Thus, while the use of six hundred ’elef in Exodus 12:37 as an intentionally exaggerated figure is a plausible explanation, the number does not compare favorably with the hyperbolic use of numbers in the available corpus of ANE literature. And since this number is supposed to represent the total of Israel’s fighting force, one might expect the number to be reduced to make God’s intervention more impressive (cf. Judges 7). Another way of regarding the issue is to interpret “six hundred ’elef” sexagesimally. However, while the base 6 system was known in ancient Sumer (and later, Babylonia), it did not apparently spread through the Near East.

One of the first to really struggle with the whole issue was the Egyptologist Flinders Petrie. He proposed understanding the word ’elef, based on his analysis of the itinerary in Numbers 1, as meaning “tent groups,” with the hundreds figure representing the actual number of men in the ’elef. As per his idea, the six hundred figure represents the total number of “units” in the census figures. Adding the hundreds column to this figure led Petrie to propose that there would have been 5,500 fighting men, which accords better with the comparative numbers of armies, and would mean that although a sizeable force, it would not outnumber the Egyptian army.

In 1958, George Mendenhall built upon Petrie’s conclusions and accepted the meaning of ’elef as “some subsection of a tribe.” Working within Martin Noth’s amphictyonic tribal system and considering other sociological factors, Mendenhall argued that the census reveals the contribution of each tribe to the army and regarded the census “as an authentic list from the period of the Federation * which reflects this sort of military organization and mobilization, probably coming from specific occasions when the Federation army had to be mobilized to meet the common peril.” The number of men per tribal unit varied considerably, ranging from five to fourteen. On the basis of these figures Mendenhall declared that the numbers might well be grounded in historical reality, as they are “so random that no pattern can be seen underlying them.” He concluded that that the system of tallying forces used by P were derived from earlier sources that were influenced by the type of military reckoning texts from Alalakh and Mari.

In contrast to Petrie, who believed that the censuses originated from the Mosaic period, Mendenhall originally considered the tribal system in Numbers 1 and 26 to reflect what he calls “the period of the Federation.” Mendenhall noted that by the period of the early monarchy, the earlier tribal organization system was deteriorating. He also thought it possible that later in Israelite history it became difficult for editors and copyists to understand how to interpret ’elef, which eventually led to the (mistaken) idea that hundreds of thousands or millions of Israelites were involved in the exodus from Egypt. Twenty years after his study, however, Mendenhall revised his position: he now believes that the origin of the census should be moved down to the period of the United Monarchy, with the corvée labor system in which each tribe was responsible to conscript laborers for Solomon’s building projects standing behind the census which P projected back into the Mosaic period in Numbers 1 and 26.

Mendenhall’s view that ’elef is a clan-based military unit has become popular with scholars who also utilize sociological approaches to the Hebrew scriptures, like Norman K. Gottwald (author of The Tribes of Yahweh: A Sociology of the Religion of Liberated Israel, 1250-1050 BCE), who further suggests that ’elef was occasionally used as a synonym with mišpāḥâ (“family;” the usual term for a clan), or J. David Schloen (The House of the Father as Fact and Symbol: Patrimonialism in Ugarit and the Ancient Near East), who likewise agrees that the typical ’elef consisted of nine to ten men, and that a mišpāḥâ comprised of one to two dozen households. While some recent studies have challenged Mendenhall’s revised conclusions, there is still agreement that his analysis is on the right track in his understanding of ’elef. Recently, a Cambridge physicist named Colin J. Humphreys (The Miracles of Exodus) through mathematical analysis of the numbers estimated that the number of Israelites included in the exodus was around 20,000.*
 
patrick457:

I appreciate the information and research you’ve provided.
 
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