The Jews are the "Chosen Ones"

[Calvinator]

Are you one of the elect, Calvinator!?

Why?

 

[Teflon93]

I suggest you read what the reformers had to say about the perseverance of the saints. None of them ever said that the elect wouldn’t sin or backslide. Simply put, God ensures that they (the elect) will persevere until the end.

If you want to use Peter and or Judas as an example you would have to establish that they were justified at one point and then unjustified the next. Until you do that, your argument is seriously flawed.

Were they not baptized?

If they were, you’ve got some flaws in your argument, my friend.

 

[Calvinator]

Were they not baptized?

If they were, you’ve got some flaws in your argument, my friend.

You’ve lost me. I guess you think you have an argument if they were baptized. So, let’s assume they were baptized. Please explain.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Why?

Why not?..

I never met an Elect before.

 

[Teflon93]

Were they not baptized?

If they were, you’ve got some flaws in your argument, my friend.

Do you not take baptism (whether of the water or of the spirit, particularly of adults) to be the sign of the Elect?

If the Apostles were indeed the first true Christians, would not the actions of Peter and Judas in turning away from Christ not indicate that even the justified sin, and that repentance is the difference between damnation and salvation/

Peter repented and led Christ’s Church, Judas despaired and killed himself.

Having watched Calvinists twist themselves into knots explaining this, I wondered what your take was.

The most common argument they provide has been that the Elect weren’t chosen till after Pentecost, which of course makes a hash of predestination in that God’s omniscience is undermined.

The tie-in to the Jews is that if one follows Christ, as the Apostles did, but still do not recognize Christ as God, Catholics hold that you are not saved. The question is therefore one of when the Apostles, particularly the Jewish ones, became “saved”, properly understood. The answer to that for Catholics is at Calvary when Christ died for our sins, but I wonder how predestination adherents view that.

 

[Calvinator]

Do you not take baptism (whether of the water or of the spirit, particularly of adults) to be the sign of the Elect?

Water baptism would not be a definitive sign nor would there be any external sign that could be taken as a definitive measure of whether or not one is justified. In other words, there is “go/no-go gauge” we can look at.

If the Apostles were indeed the first true Christians, would not the actions of Peter and Judas in turning away from Christ not indicate that even the justified sin, and that repentance is the difference between damnation and salvation/

I have no argument with the statement “even the justified sin”. Even if you want to say that repentance is the difference between damnation and salvation it would be logical for both of us to agree that the elect do in fact repent, would it not?

Teflon:

Peter repented and led Christ’s Church, Judas despaired and killed himself.

Having watched Calvinists twist themselves into knots explaining this, I wondered what your take was.

To the best of my knowledge your church has never claimed to know the final state of Judas’ soul or the state of his soul at any time during his life. Am I wrong?

If you don’t know the state of Judas soul at death, or any other point, I don’t see how Judas can be used to disprove the preservation of the saints. We don’t know if he was ever justified nor do we know if he repented at the end. If you choose to think he didn’t I would certainly agree with you but neither you or I can be sure of that.

Teflon:

The most common argument they provide has been that the Elect weren’t chosen till after Pentecost, which of course makes a hash of predestination in that God’s omniscience is undermined.

I am curious to know who it is that believes the elect weren’t chosen until after Pentecost. Scripture indicates that the elect were chose before the world was formed.

Teflon:

The tie-in to the Jews is that if one follows Christ, as the Apostles did, but still do not recognize Christ as God, Catholics hold that you are not saved. The question is therefore one of when the Apostles, particularly the Jewish ones, became “saved”, properly understood. The answer to that for Catholics is at Calvary when Christ died for our sins, but I wonder how predestination adherents view that.

I guess my answer would be they were justified when God justified them, when that occured I do not claim to know. We know the OT saints were saved looking forward to the Messiah, how this occurs I don’t claim to understand. Until the new covenant was established I would guess anyone, apostle or not, would be under the old covenant.

 

[Teflon93]

Water baptism would not be a definitive sign nor would there be any external sign that could be taken as a definitive measure of whether or not one is justified. In other words, there is “go/no-go gauge” we can look at.

All right, I admit it—mentioning go/no-go gauges earns points with me. I’m a quality engineer. I think your point is valid; I know that some take water baptism to be definitive and others do not. You do not.

I have no argument with the statement “even the justified sin”. Even if you want to say that repentance is the difference between damnation and salvation it would be logical for both of us to agree that the elect do in fact repent, would it not?

Yes, I think we agree. It’s tricky because not all on your side would.

To the best of my knowledge your church has never claimed to know the final state of Judas’ soul or the state of his soul at any time during his life. Am I wrong?

No, you’re correct to the best of my knowledge. My point with Judas was an example of an apostle who left the fold and did not return.

If you don’t know the state of Judas soul at death, or any other point, I don’t see how Judas can be used to disprove the preservation of the saints. We don’t know if he was ever justified nor do we know if he repented at the end. If you choose to think he didn’t I would certainly agree with you but neither you or I can be sure of that.

God alone knows. I wasn’t raising him as a definitive, simply as a clear-cut case of an Apostle betraying God (i.e. mortal sinner).

I am curious to know who it is that believes the elect weren’t chosen until after Pentecost. Scripture indicates that the elect were chose before the world was formed.

That’s precisely the point I was raising, although I would quibble with your reading of Scripture there. Nonetheless, in some ongoing discussion with Calvinist friends of mine, they sought to have it both ways—the Elect cannot sin, the Apostles were Elect, Apostles did sin. The way they tried to split the hair was to say that they weren’t Elect until Pentecost, which raised the predestination issue.

I can certainly see this as reconcilable if one aknowledges that the Elect can indeed sin and repent, but in their case, they did not. I don’t know how common their opinion or argument is in Calvinist circles, so they may be on the fringe.

I guess my answer would be they were justified when God justified them, when that occured I do not claim to know. We know the OT saints were saved looking forward to the Messiah, how this occurs I don’t claim to understand. Until the new covenant was established I would guess anyone, apostle or not, would be under the old covenant.

Which brings this back on topic nicely. Christ introduced the new covenant at the Last Supper. Did this invalidate the old in your view? I think that goes to the heart of the OP’s question.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The reason Judas is a good example is this: even if it is true that we do not know for a fact what the soul of Judas’ soul was at death we do know this:

Jesus said “It would have been better for that man if he had never been born.”

Jesus would not say that if Judas was indeed going to be in Heaven. The joys of eternity in Heaven with Jesus would outweigh anything bad that might come to Judas because of his betrayal of Christ.

Even if Judas experienced Purgatory until Jesus’ second coming and even if it was more intense than anything that we could imagine–the joys of eternity in Heaven with Jesus would outweigh all of that pain and suffering.

The Only Way that it would be better for Judas to have never been born would be if in fact he would spend eternity in Hell!

So do we Know that Judas went to Hell? No. Is it logical to believe that Judas went to Hell considering Jesus’ own words?

Absolutely!

So if it is logical to believe that Judas went to Hell and since we know that Jesus Chose Judas to be one of the 12 disciples–can we conclude that Judas who Jesus Chose!–that that same Judas did indeed fall away and end up in Hell?

Absolutely Yes!

Is the falling away of people who are chosen by Christ–is this consistant with the scriptures?

Absolutely yes!

What does all of this mean in relation to the Jews that are chosen by God?

Simply this: anyone who loves God and is doing God’s will will surely reap what God has promised them.

Anyone who Resists God’s will will reap what is due to those who sin against God.

Is God able to judge which Jews are not resisting Him and His will and which ones are Resisting Him and His will?

Yes!

Is he able to do that with nations just as He is with individuals?

Yes!

What is His judgement concerning individual Jews and the nation of Israel?

We do not know. We do know this though–any individual or any nation which is made up of many individuals is better off if it loves Jesus and tries to do His will.

Since this is true we should never cease trying to bring individual Jews and the state of Israel to Jesus.

That is true for all christians and especially true for Catholics and is true no matter how angry or uncomfortable if might make any individual Jews or the nation of Israel.

We should only do it with love and respect and it shouldn’t concern all our time because we must first correct our own shortcomings and worry about our own salvation before we worry about others.

Is the christian faith and especially the Catholic Church as the fullest possesor of that faith in its fullness the Brother and Keeper of individual Jews and even of the nation of Israel?

Absolutely Yes!

Now anyone who wishes has the permission to stone me!