The Jews are the "Chosen Ones"

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Jerry-Jet said:
Well Calvinator Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.

Don’t the scriptures say that God desired that all men be saved and that Christ died for all?

Double predesrtination = God is a capricious monster!

Catholics have always believed in the predestination of the elect.

Catholics also believe that we don’t know exactly who those people are so we are to follow the Inerrant word of God where Paul commands us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!

So if one has accepted christ as their personal Lord and savior should they still Work out their salvation!

If one believes the Bible–Yes!

Should they fear and tremble about their salvation?

If one believes the bible–yes!

Were the Jews chosen by God?

Of course! Every catholic believes that!

Can Any Jew in history that rejects Jesus as savior when he knows that jesus is savior go to heaven/

No!

Anyone regardless of religion that rejects Jesus when they know better–that person will die in Mortal sin and go to Hell!

Even someone who has been chosen!

Many are called. Few are chosen.

Even fewer persevere.

And Jesus didn’t come and die on the cross so He could come back and sit on an Earthly throne for 1,000 years so Jews who don’t believe in Him could have the joy of inhabiting a piece of dirt in the present day state of Israel.

Israel was chosen by god as part of his plan for the salvatrion of the world.

The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!

People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!

That applies to all of us.

Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!
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This started out by you using the example of Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints. In the above post you touched on quite a few additional issues. Before we discuss anything else let’s stick with the example of Judas.

Earlier you said that Judas disproves the perseverance of the saints. To back that up you say that “Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.”

My question is, what was Judas chosen for? For one to use Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints one has to somehow prove that Judas was at one point saved and then lost his salvation.

So, was Judas ever saved? If he wasn’t than this discussion is meaningless.

If Judas was saved, how do you know this? Also, if Judas was saved, what was his fate and how do you know for sure where Judas is in eternity? To the best of my knowledge your church has never ruled one way or the other on Judas’ fate.

By the way, I don’t believe in double predestination.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Well Calvinator Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.

Don’t the scriptures say that God desired that all men be saved and that Christ died for all?

Double predesrtination = God is a capricious monster!

Catholics have always believed in the predestination of the elect.

Catholics also believe that we don’t know exactly who those people are so we are to follow the Inerrant word of God where Paul commands us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!

So if one has accepted christ as their personal Lord and savior should they still Work out their salvation!

If one believes the Bible–Yes!

Should they fear and tremble about their salvation?

If one believes the bible–yes!

Were the Jews chosen by God?

Of course! Every catholic believes that!

Can Any Jew in history that rejects Jesus as savior when he knows that jesus is savior go to heaven/

No!

Anyone regardless of religion that rejects Jesus when they know better–that person will die in Mortal sin and go to Hell!

Even someone who has been chosen!

Many are called. Few are chosen.

Even fewer persevere.

And Jesus didn’t come and die on the cross so He could come back and sit on an Earthly throne for 1,000 years so Jews who don’t believe in Him could have the joy of inhabiting a piece of dirt in the present day state of Israel.

Israel was chosen by god as part of his plan for the salvatrion of the world.

The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!

People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!

That applies to all of us.

Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!
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Well actually there is no such thing as Hell in Judaism so I’m sorry to disappoint you that’s not where Jews are destined.

When the Jews created Christianity for the pagan masses they also introduced the concept of Hell which was already part and parcel of pagan belief. Such a concept was necessitated because a highly intellectual religion based on law requires a fully literate population of above average intelligence. This existed only with God’s chosen people, the Jews. It was precluded in a mass 1st century common era religion such as Christianity which by necessity began to hold precepts to limit and invalidate future knowledge and development of God’s law.

When a Jew refers to “God’s chosen people” he does not mean it
in the same way as his Christian counterpart. From a Jewish point of view the meaning is one of extra obligations and burdens on the Jew. Not only does does the Jew not hold the belief that the gentile is doomed but, on the contrary, in Judaism the gentile is more likely and has a much easier time to get into the world to come.

Those who hold the fallacious belief that God has broken his convenant with the Jewish people must indeed have a warped concept of God and morality. God, who presumably knows all, made an irrevocable convenant with the Jewish people based on their adoption of the very precepts which would forever prevent them accepting Christian concepts. The breaking of the covenant with the Jewish people as proposed here paints God both as illogical and dishonest.
 
God has already given the Jews ev erything he promised them.

If that weren’t true then please explain why fore over 1900 years there was no state of Israel.

Was God forgetful or was he not holding up his side of the bargain for 1900 years?

No!

If one really cares about the Jews they will go to the Holy Land–knock on every door–and witness to them about Jesus!

Why is it that Covenant Lovers don’t do that?

Why is it that they care so much more about God’s Covenants being fulfllied with the Jews than they do with the condition of Jewish souls?

Every soul and every nation that denies Jesus is outside of the salvific will of God until they repent and accept Jesus.

Israel is no different! Individual Jews are no different!

In the final analysis who cares if one is chosen or not if they don’t perseveringly until the end of their lives love Jesus and accept Jesus.

All the choseness in the world will not mean that any soul escapes Hell.

Perseveringly doing and obeying Jesus’s commandments–the real measure of live faith versus dead faith–will keep one out of Hell.

The Jews were given much but Catholics are given even much more!

To those who much is given much more is required.

So Catholics everywhere should not be puffed up with pride because they have more of the truth than Jews and non Catholics–evermore the reason to worry about their own souls so they can save those who are not Catholic!
 
Hellisreal said:
Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet
Jesus chose Judas!

Being chosen has never meant that one will positively absolutley no doubt about it be saved.

Judas wasn’t! If he was Jesus would have never said concerning him “It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”

Kinda blows apart OSAS no?
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The Israelites are the only people that are gauranteed to have a remnant of themselves in the Jesus’ church.

chirp-chirp
 
And even the grasshoppers will tell you that the remnant of them that is in Jesus’ church accepts Jesus as Savior and Lord and is obedeint to his Catholic Church–that’s much more than protestants can say!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!

People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!

Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!
Click to expand...
Well, Jesus himself will land his own feet on the dirt on Mt. of Olives. He wont be crossing the Tibur or circling a black stone in Mecca, he is coming out of Zion to save his people. Dont forget, there are Jews who are still awaiting the Messiah. Whether they rejected or are ignorant of the first coming of the Messiah, they still await the coming of him. And Jesus himself said they will not see him until they say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”
 
Jerry-Jet said:
And even the grasshoppers will tell you that the remnant of them that is in Jesus’ church accepts Jesus as Savior and Lord and is obedeint to his Catholic Church–that’s much more than protestants can say!
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Well then your church says they are the new Israel. Why is there a remnant of Israel preserved inside Israel, does this make sense?

And if you and your church is the New Israel, and do things like spiritualize prophecies about the restoration of Israel to the church, then go ahead, pack your bags and move to Haifa, Tel Aviv, etc. Go on, forget 'bout 'dem disobedient Jews. Forget about prophecies like the Dry Bones vision in Ezekial. Should we be like the crusaders, go take the land, preserve the holy sites, and not knock on doors of every unbeliving Jew who lives there?
 
Jerry-Jet said:
God has already given the Jews ev erything he promised them.

If that weren’t true then please explain why fore over 1900 years there was no state of Israel.

Was God forgetful or was he not holding up his side of the bargain for 1900 years?

No!

If one really cares about the Jews they will go to the Holy Land–knock on every door–and witness to them about Jesus!

Why is it that Covenant Lovers don’t do that?

Why is it that they care so much more about God’s Covenants being fulfllied with the Jews than they do with the condition of Jewish souls?

Every soul and every nation that denies Jesus is outside of the salvific will of God until they repent and accept Jesus.

Israel is no different! Individual Jews are no different!

In the final analysis who cares if one is chosen or not if they don’t perseveringly until the end of their lives love Jesus and accept Jesus.

All the choseness in the world will not mean that any soul escapes Hell.

Perseveringly doing and obeying Jesus’s commandments–the real measure of live faith versus dead faith–will keep one out of Hell.

The Jews were given much but Catholics are given even much more!

To those who much is given much more is required.

So Catholics everywhere should not be puffed up with pride because they have more of the truth than Jews and non Catholics–evermore the reason to worry about their own souls so they can save those who are not Catholic!
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This is indeed interesting logic. Why do Jews now have their own country against all odds? Was it because they all suddenly converted to Christianity?! or is it further proof as a reaffirmation that the Jews are God’s chosen people? Should Jews “be puffed up with pride” that they form the most intelligent most highly educated wealthiest ethnic group in existence, that though they make up only one quarter of one per cent of the population their contributions in science, technology, medicine and other fields is
at a rate 14 - 15 times higher over population or that Jews have won over twenty per cent of all nobel prizes and make up some fifty per cent of world chess champions. Imagine the fact that though there are only 14 million Jews in the world there was not one of the one billion Catholics today who did not do or use something to which they owe the Jews (from their religion to their computers and cell phones - heck Jews even wrote most of the good christmas songs). Oh I forgot. Your the “chosen ones” and we Jews are all cursed and going to hell.
 
chosen_people said:
This is indeed interesting logic. Why do Jews now have their own country against all odds?
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All you had to do is say this my friend and that is proof enough that the God of Israel is real and the scripture in the bible is his word.
 
chosen_people said:
This is indeed interesting logic. Why do Jews now have their own country against all odds? Was it because they all suddenly converted to Christianity?! or is it further proof as a reaffirmation that the Jews are God’s chosen people? Should Jews “be puffed up with pride” that they form the most intelligent most highly educated wealthiest ethnic group in existence, that though they make up only one quarter of one per cent of the population their contributions in science, technology, medicine and other fields is
at a rate 14 - 15 times higher over population or that Jews have won over twenty per cent of all nobel prizes and make up some fifty per cent of world chess champions. Imagine the fact that though there are only 14 million Jews in the world there was not one of the one billion Catholics today who did not do or use something to which they owe the Jews (from their religion to their computers and cell phones - heck Jews even wrote most of the good christmas songs). Oh I forgot. Your the “chosen ones” and we Jews are all cursed and going to hell.
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Jews have their own nation now because Christians in Great Britain enabled them to have it, and because Christians in America helped them keep it.

No Balfour Declaration, no Ariel Sharon, no?
 
Lev23 said:
All you had to do is say this my friend and that is proof enough that the God of Israel is real and the scripture in the bible is his word.
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I agree. I don’t quite understand the hostility.
 
"jerry jet:
Well Calvinator Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.

Don’t the scriptures say that God desired that all men be saved and that Christ died for all?

Double predesrtination = God is a capricious monster!

Catholics have always believed in the predestination of the elect.

Catholics also believe that we don’t know exactly who those people are so we are to follow the Inerrant word of God where Paul commands us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!

So if one has accepted christ as their personal Lord and savior should they still Work out their salvation!

If one believes the Bible–Yes!

Should they fear and tremble about their salvation?

If one believes the bible–yes!

Were the Jews chosen by God?

Of course! Every catholic believes that!

Can Any Jew in history that rejects Jesus as savior when he knows that jesus is savior go to heaven/

No!

Anyone regardless of religion that rejects Jesus when they know better–that person will die in Mortal sin and go to Hell!

Even someone who has been chosen!

Many are called. Few are chosen.

Even fewer persevere.

And Jesus didn’t come and die on the cross so He could come back and sit on an Earthly throne for 1,000 years so Jews who don’t believe in Him could have the joy of inhabiting a piece of dirt in the present day state of Israel.

Israel was chosen by god as part of his plan for the salvatrion of the world.

The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!

People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!

That applies to all of us.

Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!

This started out by you using the example of Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints. In the above post you touched on quite a few additional issues. Before we discuss anything else let’s stick with the example of Judas.

Earlier you said that Judas disproves the perseverance of the saints. To back that up you say that “Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.”

My question is, what was Judas chosen for? For one to use Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints one has to somehow prove that Judas was at one point saved and then lost his salvation.

So, was Judas ever saved? If he wasn’t than this discussion is meaningless.

If Judas was saved, how do you know this? Also, if Judas was saved, what was his fate and how do you know for sure where Judas is in eternity? To the best of my knowledge your church has never ruled one way or the other on Judas’ fate.

By the way, I don’t believe in double predestination.
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Calvinator said:
This started out by you using the example of Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints. In the above post you touched on quite a few additional issues. Before we discuss anything else let’s stick with the example of Judas.

Earlier you said that Judas disproves the perseverance of the saints. To back that up you say that “Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.”

My question is, what was Judas chosen for? For one to use Judas to disprove the perseverance of the saints one has to somehow prove that Judas was at one point saved and then lost his salvation.

So, was Judas ever saved? If he wasn’t than this discussion is meaningless.

If Judas was saved, how do you know this? Also, if Judas was saved, what was his fate and how do you know for sure where Judas is in eternity? To the best of my knowledge your church has never ruled one way or the other on Judas’ fate.

By the way, I don’t believe in double predestination.
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bump for Jet and Teflon.
 
Teflon93 said:
I agree. I don’t quite understand the hostility.
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I don’t think there has been any hostility here I’m just not seeing anything that suggests the Old Covenant remains. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant. So yes in that since the Old Covenant still exists as it is now the New.

The need for Christ was demonstrated in the Old Covenant. The way was paved to Christ in the Old Covenant. The bearers of the Old Covenant were giving the first and the prime chances to take part in the fulfillment of the Covenant they bore for thousands of years many took advantage many did not. Never the less it is Church that hold the Covenant now.

Does this mean that God no longer wants the descendants of those who originally held his Covenant to return? No. However, just like before when they cast away the Covenant it is up to them to return to it.

By saying that the Old Covenant exists outside of and separate from the New is same as saying the for those who have the Old don’t need the New. They after all have their own Covenant and so we Christians should just leave them alone. There really is no way around that. Further if the Old Covenant still exists then there is no need for Christ as atonement is provided for within the Old.

Finally, the existence of the current state of Israel has nothing to do with either the Old or New Covenant. It has to do with the UK giving that land away and the US continuing to back it. So lets not grant it anything unnatural.
 
Calvinator said:
bump for Jet and Teflon.
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I’m not sure what I’m being bumped for.

Isn’t it obvious that Judas was counted among the apostles, and that he fell from grace?

Isn’t it obvious that God had greater plans for Adam & Eve and that their choices took away Eden?

Isn’t it obvious that Peter was saved, yet denied Christ thrice?

I think it’s equally obvious in experience and history that plenty have heard the call of Christ and plenty have fallen away. Some repented, some did not. Calvin’s attempt to tie this all into a neat little package a millennium and a half after Cavalry remains unconvincing to many Protestants and all Catholics for this reason.

The Jews were and are God’s chosen people; through Christ he made us all Jews. Whether righteous Jews who do not currently follow Christ will be saved on the far side of the grave depends on God’s mercy and judgment. The same goes for us, of course, in that no man knows he is saved until he hears God Himself say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”
 
bilop said:
I still don’t see where you are getting this.

True. But we have the road map in the Church Jesus gave us. We do Jews, or anyone else, no favors by denying this truth to spare their feelings.

God Bless
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Well, I must say that’s the first time on this board I’ve been accused of trying to spare someone’s feelings. 😉

I wasn’t trying to do anything of the sort. God’s judgment is God’s judgment. I do not delight in the damnation of others, however, and thus while as a Catholic I believe one must be a Christian (i.e. a member of Christ’s Church, which is the Catholic Church) I still hope that my Protestant and Jewish friends will have eternal life. They will make their choices and live their lives as they will.

As for God making us all Jews, are we really to be allowed no license at all in the use of analogy, or do I need to formulate everything as a point-by-point argument to avoid being thought a heretic myself?
  1. The Jews were God’s chosen people.
  2. Jesus Christ was a Jew.
  3. Jesus’ followers are Christians.
  4. Through Jesus, God has extended his chosen people beyond Jews to Gentiles.
  5. In essence, God has made it possible for ALL of us to be Jews (that is, His chosen people).
Different strokes…
 
Where does it say that the Old Covenant has been abolished?

I’ve posted the section of the Catechism which indicates the old covenant has never been revoked. Luke 22:20 certainly indicates the new covenant. It is less clear to me that it means the old one is no longer valid at all. Why did Christ urge the keeping of the Commandments, clearly features of the old covenant, if he intended to sweep them away at Calvary?
 
Teflon93 said:
Well, I must say that’s the first time on this board I’ve been accused of trying to spare someone’s feelings. 😉

I wasn’t trying to do anything of the sort. God’s judgment is God’s judgment. I do not delight in the damnation of others, however, and thus while as a Catholic I believe one must be a Christian (i.e. a member of Christ’s Church, which is the Catholic Church) I still hope that my Protestant and Jewish friends will have eternal life. They will make their choices and live their lives as they will.

As for God making us all Jews, are we really to be allowed no license at all in the use of analogy, or do I need to formulate everything as a point-by-point argument to avoid being thought a heretic myself?
  1. The Jews were God’s chosen people.
  2. Jesus Christ was a Jew.
  3. Jesus’ followers are Christians.
  4. Through Jesus, God has extended his chosen people beyond Jews to Gentiles.
  5. In essence, God has made it possible for ALL of us to be Jews (that is, His chosen people).
Different strokes…
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If you mean it “poetically” I can accept your meaning.

I certainly never meant to imply that you are a heretic, and I think it is very good that you wish salvation for all.

The only idea I wanted to counter is that Jews can somehow be saved without Christ. Can’t happen. All must become christian, in some fashion, if they wish to be saved.

God Bless
 
Teflon93 said:
I’m not sure what I’m being bumped for.

Isn’t it obvious that Judas was counted among the apostles, and that he fell from grace?

Isn’t it obvious that God had greater plans for Adam & Eve and that their choices took away Eden?

Isn’t it obvious that Peter was saved, yet denied Christ thrice?

I think it’s equally obvious in experience and history that plenty have heard the call of Christ and plenty have fallen away. Some repented, some did not. Calvin’s attempt to tie this all into a neat little package a millennium and a half after Cavalry remains unconvincing to many Protestants and all Catholics for this reason.

The Jews were and are God’s chosen people; through Christ he made us all Jews. Whether righteous Jews who do not currently follow Christ will be saved on the far side of the grave depends on God’s mercy and judgment. The same goes for us, of course, in that no man knows he is saved until he hears God Himself say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”
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I suggest you read what the reformers had to say about the perseverance of the saints. None of them ever said that the elect wouldn’t sin or backslide. Simply put, God ensures that they (the elect) will persevere until the end.

If you want to use Peter and or Judas as an example you would have to establish that they were justified at one point and then unjustified the next. Until you do that, your argument is seriously flawed.
 
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