H
Hellisreal
Guest
Which one of the commandments are not being followed?
(I am not challenging you- only needing clarity to address
- Status
(I am not challenging you- only needing clarity to address
T
Teflon93
Guest
Of course not.
I was just asking the clarifying question because I found the point about the old covenant an interesting one.
As has been noted, there are Protestants who take the new covenant to make the old completely unnecessary. I think we Catholics do not go anywhere near as far.
The Ten Commandments are a particularly useful example because few would say that these were invalidated by Christ.
And with good reason (Catechism 2052-2055):
2052 “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” To the young man who asked this question, Jesus answers first by invoking the necessity to recognize God as the “One there is who is good,” as the supreme Good and the source of all good. Then Jesus tells him: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” And he cites for his questioner the precepts that concern love of neighbor: “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.” Finally Jesus sums up these commandments positively: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."1
2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."2 This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished,3 but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity.4 The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.
2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter. He preached a "righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees"5 as well as that of the Gentiles.6 He unfolded all the demands of the Commandments. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill.’ . . . But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."7
2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:
The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.10
Is this not one reason why Catholics today do not condemn Jews as strongly as some other Christians do? Was not the heart of John Paul II’s ecumenism toward Jews rooted in the realization that God is merciful, His word is eternal, and we might expect great mercy to be show toward the people to whom He had chosen to give His word?
This certainly appeals more to me than some of the evangelical Protestant love for Israel because they believe Israel to be the trigger of the end times.
In any case, I suppose I would answer the OP by saying, “Yes, Jews were God’s chosen people and Christ made Jews of us all, provided we take up our crosses and follow him.”
C
Calvinator
Guest
If you believe that the old covenant is salvific, than why did Jesus bother coming at all?Of course not.
I was just asking the clarifying question because I found the point about the old covenant an interesting one.
As has been noted, there are Protestants who take the new covenant to make the old completely unnecessary. I think we Catholics do not go anywhere near as far.
The Ten Commandments are a particularly useful example because few would say that these were invalidated by Christ.
And with good reason (Catechism 2052-2055):
2052 “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” To the young man who asked this question, Jesus answers first by invoking the necessity to recognize God as the “One there is who is good,” as the supreme Good and the source of all good. Then Jesus tells him: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” And he cites for his questioner the precepts that concern love of neighbor: “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.” Finally Jesus sums up these commandments positively: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."1
2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."2 This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished,3 but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity.4 The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.
2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter. He preached a "righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees"5 as well as that of the Gentiles.6 He unfolded all the demands of the Commandments. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill.’ . . . But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."7
2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:
The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.10
Is this not one reason why Catholics today do not condemn Jews as strongly as some other Christians do? Was not the heart of John Paul II’s ecumenism toward Jews rooted in the realization that God is merciful, His word is eternal, and we might expect great mercy to be show toward the people to whom He had chosen to give His word?
This certainly appeals more to me than some of the evangelical Protestant love for Israel because they believe Israel to be the trigger of the end times.
In any case, I suppose I would answer the OP by saying, “Yes, Jews were God’s chosen people and Christ made Jews of us all, provided we take up our crosses and follow him.”
In the above post you completely fail to distinguish on which side of the cross these words were spoken. I am assuming by your post that you think it is quite possible to obey the law and achieve salvation. Paul was quite clear that the law brings death, not life.
T
Teflon93
Guest
All of them, unfortunately, by too many of us.Which one of the commandments are not being followed?
(I am not challenging you- only needing clarity to address
But given Christ’s admonition as posted above, I don’t think we’ve been relieved of our obligation to keep the Commandments so much as allowed for the fact that we are incapable of doing so perfectly.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Please read my posts. Not only did I not claim it to be salvific, in the sense that Christ’s coming was unnecessary, I specifically noted the opposite.
Are all of Christ’s teachings which occurred before Crucifixion invalid? Did he change them?
I think the answer is pretty clearly “No.”
As the Catechism excerpt I posted clearly indicated, “Following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment.”
Or, as Christ himself put it, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Arguing with me is one thing, arguing with Christ quite another.
To the original topic, we must ask whether a Jew who keeps the commandments might enter eternal life, given that following Christ is defined as keeping the commandments perfectly.
As to earning salvation, you’re talking more in terms of somehow meriting it than I am. I don’t think we merit it at all; it is a gift of grace which we then receive in gratitude by avoiding sin (and repenting when we do not) and by trying to live a Christian life.
I hope God has mercy upon our Jewish friends who live godly lives as well.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
The interpreter of the Law came in the flesh. He never told us to abrogate the commandments, he did not add to them nor take them away.
Paul was not contradictory. He was distinguishing the spirit and intent of the law to those who did not see the difference.
IOW- if one follows the law yet fails to see the spirit and intent of it- and ignores the 2 greatest commandments - they will always fail.
I am not sure where the confusion about this stems from.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
The ONLY thing Christ added to the Law was ----
Himself.
Chew on that for a minute before you condemn me.
Himself.
Chew on that for a minute before you condemn me.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Exactly—the problem wasn’t with the Law; it was our human tendency to twist and abuse it, thus Christ’s criticism of the Pharisees.
That’s why I’m leery of saying that we simply throw out the Old Testament in favor of a “personal relationship” with Christ, whatever that may mean to different people in different denominations.
Christ defined Christianity, no matter what the Jesus Seminar debunkers claim, and he defined it in ways that clarified the Law and the spirit of it.
Christ’s exhortation to “follow me” is therefore a much larger commitment for Catholics than for some of our fellow Christians—for us, it means, “emulate me”. Talk about a tall order!
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Well said. Thank you!
I need all the help I can get today with no air conditioning working yet agian.
Heat index 104.
Yes, the emphasis on personal relationship seems so harmless.
Yet- in so many subtle ways it has taken so much away from many persons understanding that Christ is:
Fully Human and Fully Divine.
Not surprisingly- an over emphasis on the humanity has taken over his divinity.
Just my thoughts on the current state of affairs with christology outside the Catholic Church.
Its an old heresy revived.
I need all the help I can get today with no air conditioning working yet agian.
Heat index 104.
Yes, the emphasis on personal relationship seems so harmless.
Yet- in so many subtle ways it has taken so much away from many persons understanding that Christ is:
Fully Human and Fully Divine.
Not surprisingly- an over emphasis on the humanity has taken over his divinity.
Just my thoughts on the current state of affairs with christology outside the Catholic Church.
Its an old heresy revived.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Jesus chose Judas!
Being chosen has never meant that one will positively absolutley no doubt about it be saved.
Judas wasn’t! If he was Jesus would have never said concerning him “It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”
Being chosen has never meant that one will positively absolutley no doubt about it be saved.
Judas wasn’t! If he was Jesus would have never said concerning him “It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”
T
Teflon93
Guest
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Kinda blows apart OSAS no?
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
As in post #7, again I ask you-anyone, why were the Jews chosen by God out of all the other peoples of the earth? Why did Christ say salvation comes from the Jews?
Why weren’t the Jews commanded to convert others in the OT, as Christ commanded us in the New Testament, and why did God give instructions such as to wipe out other communities to include men, women, children, and animals when the Jews entered the Holy Land?
Those answers are the reasons why the “chosen” attribute still remains valid even if it has been fulfilled through Christ, and why the Jews still hold a place of honor even though some Jews have not accepted Christ.
The number of Jews today is a significant element to the answers as well.
Why weren’t the Jews commanded to convert others in the OT, as Christ commanded us in the New Testament, and why did God give instructions such as to wipe out other communities to include men, women, children, and animals when the Jews entered the Holy Land?
Those answers are the reasons why the “chosen” attribute still remains valid even if it has been fulfilled through Christ, and why the Jews still hold a place of honor even though some Jews have not accepted Christ.
The number of Jews today is a significant element to the answers as well.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Crickets chirping again…
T
Teflon93
Guest
ELECT crickets chirping, you mean.
C
Calvinator
Guest
I’m guessing this comment is directed toward me.ELECT crickets chirping, you mean.
I’m not sure how you guys think the examples cite, Judas in this case, in any way has anything to do with the perseverance of the saints.
When one says Judas was chosen, what was he chosen for? Context is very important.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Just tweaking you.
It brings up an interesting but OT question:
How does one reconcile OSAS with Judas, who was certainly counted among the twelve apostles yet betrayed Christ?
This is probably a much bigger issue for some of our Baptist posters than for yourself, as you might argue that one can be part of the divine plan without being one of the Elect, right?
C
Calvinator
Guest
Yes, I believe one can be part of the divine plan and not be one of the elect.Just tweaking you.
It brings up an interesting but OT question:
How does one reconcile OSAS with Judas, who was certainly counted among the twelve apostles yet betrayed Christ?
This is probably a much bigger issue for some of our Baptist posters than for yourself, as you might argue that one can be part of the divine plan without being one of the Elect, right?
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Well Calvinator Judas certainly wasn’t chosen by Jesus to be damned.
Don’t the scriptures say that God desired that all men be saved and that Christ died for all?
Double predesrtination = God is a capricious monster!
Catholics have always believed in the predestination of the elect.
Catholics also believe that we don’t know exactly who those people are so we are to follow the Inerrant word of God where Paul commands us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!
So if one has accepted christ as their personal Lord and savior should they still Work out their salvation!
If one believes the Bible–Yes!
Should they fear and tremble about their salvation?
If one believes the bible–yes!
Were the Jews chosen by God?
Of course! Every catholic believes that!
Can Any Jew in history that rejects Jesus as savior when he knows that jesus is savior go to heaven/
No!
Anyone regardless of religion that rejects Jesus when they know better–that person will die in Mortal sin and go to Hell!
Even someone who has been chosen!
Many are called. Few are chosen.
Even fewer persevere.
And Jesus didn’t come and die on the cross so He could come back and sit on an Earthly throne for 1,000 years so Jews who don’t believe in Him could have the joy of inhabiting a piece of dirt in the present day state of Israel.
Israel was chosen by god as part of his plan for the salvatrion of the world.
The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!
People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!
That applies to all of us.
Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!
Don’t the scriptures say that God desired that all men be saved and that Christ died for all?
Double predesrtination = God is a capricious monster!
Catholics have always believed in the predestination of the elect.
Catholics also believe that we don’t know exactly who those people are so we are to follow the Inerrant word of God where Paul commands us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!
So if one has accepted christ as their personal Lord and savior should they still Work out their salvation!
If one believes the Bible–Yes!
Should they fear and tremble about their salvation?
If one believes the bible–yes!
Were the Jews chosen by God?
Of course! Every catholic believes that!
Can Any Jew in history that rejects Jesus as savior when he knows that jesus is savior go to heaven/
No!
Anyone regardless of religion that rejects Jesus when they know better–that person will die in Mortal sin and go to Hell!
Even someone who has been chosen!
Many are called. Few are chosen.
Even fewer persevere.
And Jesus didn’t come and die on the cross so He could come back and sit on an Earthly throne for 1,000 years so Jews who don’t believe in Him could have the joy of inhabiting a piece of dirt in the present day state of Israel.
Israel was chosen by god as part of his plan for the salvatrion of the world.
The salvation of the world doesn’t concern itself with who owns what piece of dirt in present day Israel or with saving people in spite of their continual rejection of Jesus!
People who reject Jesus–even if they are chosen–go to Hell!
That applies to all of us.
Mary pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death!
T
Teflon93
Guest
Way to bring us back on topic—nicely done!
- Status