The Jews playing their part in Human Redemption?

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Sixtus

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Looking back at how the Jews have suffered, it has been argued ‘that was their legacy for not accepting the Lord’! Various passages of Scripture in all four Gospels are quoted to support it.

But the Jews were the Chosen ones. Is it not possible therefore that just as suffering can be offered for the sins of the world, that the suffering Jews are not part of Christ’s work?
 
Since the early Christians were actually Jewish converts, are you suggesting that the Jews of today are here as something like a modern day example of the story of Job?

Or that their suffering is somehow related to the suffering of Christ’s Passion?

🤷
 
What are we to make of the Holocaust?

It begs belief that our loving God allowed it to happen unless it was part of His plan.
 
Sixtus said:
What are we to make of the Holocaust?

It begs belief that our loving God allowed it to happen unless it was part of His plan.
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For an in depth treatment of this, I highly recommend the book “Salvation Is From The Jews” by Roy Schoemaker:

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0594086-2229424?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179591357&sr=8-1

I believe he has appeared more than once on the *Catholic Answers Live *radio program and written an article for This Rock magazine, so you may want to check out the archives elsewhere on this site. He also has a website.
 
Fidelis

I looked at the link. Thank you for that. I will order a copy.👍
 
The holocaust of the Jews was a heinous crime against God and humanity. For those who don’t believe in hell, I ask you where do you think the soul of Hitler and his mass murderers will be spending eternity?

That being said, the Holocaust doesn’t necessarily mean that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. The Khmer Rouge government in Cambodia exterminated half that country’s population in the 1970s. That doesn’t make the Cambodians God’s chosen people in and of itself. The Armenians were massacred by the millions by the Turks not many decades ago. That doesn’t of itself make the Armenians God’s chosen people, yet God allowed these exterminations of non-Jews to take place.

According to Christian theology based on the New Testament, however, the Jewish people ARE still especially beloved of God
“for the sake of the Patriarchs,” as scripture puts it. So yes, the continued existence of the Jewish people is in their case a sign of God’s loving providential care for them, especially considering what they have suffered over the centuries and the horror that was inflicted on them in Europe in the mid 20th century by the Nazis.
 
Roy Schoeman makes the argument that the difficulties of the Jews don’t indicate a kind of purgative experience like the Passion, but more of an attack by Satan on a people who are “beloved by God”, and who are destined to return to the Faith before the Second Coming (think of what Paul says in Romans 11).

I think there may be something to his analysis. The Jews do seem to have historically been a “special project” for the forces of evil. Whether it’s a kind of corporate revenge for their role in the Salvation of souls, or an attack on a group that is due to “come home” (or a combination of both), there does seem to be something unusual in their circumstances.

Peace and God bless!
 
Sixtus said:
Looking back at how the Jews have suffered, it has been argued ‘that was their legacy for not accepting the Lord’! Various passages of Scripture in all four Gospels are quoted to support it.

But the Jews were the Chosen ones. Is it not possible therefore that just as suffering can be offered for the sins of the world, that the suffering Jews are not part of Christ’s work?
Click to expand...
I hope you can understand the irony of a discussion on a Catholic forum concerning the significance of two thousand years of Catholic persecutions against the Jews. The Jews having been persecuted by Catholics for not accepting the devinity of Yehoshua bar Yosef you query whether such persecutions are “a legacy for not accepting the Lord”. (A fuller discussion on the Catholic dichotomy towards the Jews is warranted but that would demand a seperate thread).

There is a fallacy in the attempt to intertwine Jewish suffering at the hands of Catholics and others with the proposition that the Jews are somehow cursed (if such was your intention). The Jews make up only one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population (slightly less than two per cent of the people in the U.S.A) Despite this every possible indicator, from levels of education, economic levels, per capita contributions to medicine, science, technology and philosophy show the Jew in a uniquely positive light in relation to their gentile neighbours (see for instance jinfo.org/)).
 
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Jaypeeto4:
The holocaust of the Jews was a heinous crime against God and humanity. For those who don’t believe in hell, I ask you where do you think the soul of Hitler and his mass murderers will be spending eternity?
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A protestant once told a group of people assembled outside the St Lawrence Market that he was awed by the mercy of God Who would allow a sinner like Hitler to attain Heaven because of Hitler’s membership in the Christian faith.

I reminded him of a passage from I believe it is Isaiah but I don’t have to time to search it now. I have leave the house soon. It is “I will bless those who bless my people and I will curse those who curse my people.”
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Jaypeeto4:
That being said, the Holocaust doesn’t necessarily mean that the Jews are still God’s chosen people.
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God does not renegue on His Covenants. His Covenants were with Israel. Replacement Theology has been condemned by the Church. Again I don’t have time to find the link.
 
Ani_Ibi said:
A protestant once told a group of people assembled outside the St Lawrence Market that he was awed by the mercy of God Who would allow a sinner like Hitler to attain Heaven because of Hitler’s membership in the Christian faith.

I reminded him of a passage from I believe it is Isaiah but I don’t have to time to search it now. I have leave the house soon. It is “I will bless those who bless my people and I will curse those who curse my people.”

God does not renegue on His Covenants. His Covenants were with Israel. Replacement Theology has been condemned by the Church. Again I don’t have time to find the link.
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the quote is from Genesis 12:3
 
If you read Genesis and more of the OT, you’ll see numerous examples of what happens to the oldest child when he doesn’t live up to the father’s plan.

Ishmael was the oldest, yet Isaac got the blessings.
Esau was the oldest, yet Jacob got the blessings (OK, bad example… there was a little trickery involved here).
Reuben was the oldest, yet Judah got the blessings

Furthermore, even thought the first-born was supposed to receive the father’s blessings and such, we have more examples of it being passed on to the younger.
David wasn’t the oldest.
Solomon wasn’t the oldest.
 
NotWorthy said:
If you read Genesis and more of the OT, you’ll see numerous examples of what happens to the oldest child when he doesn’t live up to the father’s plan.

Ishmael was the oldest, yet Isaac got the blessings.
Esau was the oldest, yet Jacob got the blessings (OK, bad example… there was a little trickery involved here).
Reuben was the oldest, yet Judah got the blessings

Furthermore, even thought the first-born was supposed to receive the father’s blessings and such, we have more examples of it being passed on to the younger.
David wasn’t the oldest.
Solomon wasn’t the oldest.
Click to expand...
Actually we Jews only read the Tanach (what you call the “old testament”)
 
NotWorthy said:
If you read Genesis and more of the OT, you’ll see numerous examples of what happens to the oldest child when he doesn’t live up to the father’s plan.

Ishmael was the oldest, yet Isaac got the blessings.
Esau was the oldest, yet Jacob got the blessings (OK, bad example… there was a little trickery involved here).
Reuben was the oldest, yet Judah got the blessings

Furthermore, even thought the first-born was supposed to receive the father’s blessings and such, we have more examples of it being passed on to the younger.
David wasn’t the oldest.
Solomon wasn’t the oldest.
Click to expand...
Ah! But the blessings were not taken away from the older. Esau for instance met his brother with an open heart in the company of all sorts of servants and riches. He suffered not a jot.

Replacement theology was held forth by some unfortunately misinformed and misguided Catholics and still is. But it is not the doctrine of our Church. The Covenant of the Old Testament concerning Israel was never broken by Christ. Christ simply fulfilled that Covenant and extended inclusion to the Gentiles.
 
chosen_people said:
Actually we Jews only read the Tanach (what you call the “old testament”)
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I’m sorry for you! 🙂 The New Testament has some beautiful writings. Nothing like Tobit or Ruth in my opinion, but beautiful nonetheless.
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Ah! But the blessings were not taken away from the older. Esau for instance met his brother with an open heart in the company of all sorts of servants and riches. He suffered not a jot.
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Read the story again. Isaac couldn’t instill the blessings of the first born on Esau after Jacob had already received it.
Replacement theology was held forth by some unfortunately misinformed and misguided Catholics and still is. But it is not the doctrine of our Church. The Covenant of the Old Testament concerning Israel was never broken by Christ. Christ simply fulfilled that Covenant and extended inclusion to the Gentiles.
Click to expand...
AMEN!!! I hope I’m not giving you the impression that I believed that. I unfamiliar with the term “Replacement Theology”. I feel that the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. The Jews should have hopped on the new bus, instead of staying on the old bus.
 
Hi Sixtus,

The Jews already have played their part in our redemption. They were chosen by God to be witnesses to monotheism and to high moral standards. They were inspired to write most of the bible that nourishes our soul to this day. They brought forth Jesus, Son of David and Redeemer of Mankind.

Their role in our redemption and salvation is over. All that remains is for them to apply the fruits of redemption to themselves.

It is clear from scripture, as has been pointed out, that God is still faithful to his convenant. The Jewish people will be protected as a people until the end of time. The “remainder” of Israel will convert, so that the physical people of God will ultimately join the spiritual people of God.

Verbum
 
NotWorthy said:
I’m sorry for you! 🙂 The New Testament has some beautiful writings. Nothing like Tobit or Ruth in my opinion, but beautiful nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to the parts where I’m a poisonous snake, or the child of the devil, or a thief and a robber who kills and destroys?
 
chosen_people said:
I hope you can understand the irony of a discussion on a Catholic forum concerning the significance of two thousand years of Catholic persecutions against the Jews. The Jews having been persecuted by Catholics for not accepting the devinity of Yehoshua bar Yosef you query whether such persecutions are “a legacy for not accepting the Lord”. (A fuller discussion on the Catholic dichotomy towards the Jews is warranted but that would demand a seperate thread).

There is a fallacy in the attempt to intertwine Jewish suffering at the hands of Catholics and others with the proposition that the Jews are somehow cursed (if such was your intention). The Jews make up only one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population (slightly less than two per cent of the people in the U.S.A) Despite this every possible indicator, from levels of education, economic levels, per capita contributions to medicine, science, technology and philosophy show the Jew in a uniquely positive light in relation to their gentile neighbours (see for instance jinfo.org/).
Click to expand...
chosen people, the link at the end, does not work for me. Would please check to see if you have it right?
Mahalo!
 
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