The Johan Sebastian Bach Argument

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This is not a proof, not by the silliest standards of proof. Kreeft deserves a place in the Nancy Pelosi Hall of Fame, if that is indeed what he wrote.
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who else is in the Nancy Pelosi Hall of Fame? Sounds like proof of evil or stupidity.
JS Bach was a very devote Christian who aim was to write every piece of music to the glory of God. Maybe it is better to view this a proof of what one person can do who dedicates their life and talent to the Glory of God.
 
Bach had kids to feed, and money was only coming in from the church. He had to do what he had to do to feed them, clothe them educate them and put a roof over their heads.
Would he have done different music if that pressure was not on him to compose for the only ones that would pay for his talent? We will never know.
Times change, and the quality of music in the church has changed proportionately.
 
No proofs are absolute, God wants us use our minds and wills to respond to the signs. He always " speaks " to the humble, we are free to accept or reject, He wants a free choice. If the " proofs " were irrefutable were would be the merit.
We do use our minds to formulate the proofs. The Church says that God can be proven through reason alone, and I agree. I consider the Five Ways absolute proof.

The merit is in 1) Trying to understand the proofs and 2) Trusting that Jesus is telling the truth

If there is no good rational proof for God then we SHOULD be atheists.
 
Bach had kids to feed, and money was only coming in from the church.
That’s demonstrably false. Bach wrote secular music for secular patrons (though always with the superscription “for the glory of God”) and other composers of his day found great success in secular music.

Furthermore, the point isn’t just that much of his music was religious in theme and all of it was religious in inspiration (though that certainly helps), but that its nature points beyond a materialistic view of the world. You can “explain away” why his music affects us as it does. But your explanation will seem rather pitiful when compared to the music itself. And that fact alone points toward God.

Douglas Adams, whom no one would accuse of being a Christian apologist, gets this point across very well in his novel *Dirk Gently’s Detective Agency, *in which Bach’s music turns out to have come from an alien spaceship and to reflect somehow the harmony of the universe.
Would he have done different music if that pressure was not on him to compose for the only ones that would pay for his talent? We will never know.
That’s a cynical and historically implausible interpretation of Bach. There are other composers of whom maybe this was true, but Bach’s piety seems to have run pretty deep.
Times change, and the quality of music in the church has changed proportionately.
Actually I would say that contemporary “art” music is still generally better when religiously inspired, even if (as in the case of John Rutter, for instance) the composer is not personally pious.

Edwin
 
Then suppose that instead of JS Bach, another person was inserted in the “proof?”
All human beings reflect God. But in some cases this is an act of faith (because of the extent to which the divine likeness has been marred by sin and the brokenness of creation). In others it is more evident.

The music of Bach is one of the more evident examples.

Edwin
 
When you talk about the music of those such as Bach, or anything you are likely to listen to, you speak of the Western organization of tones and music. That is, in general, scales with consonances and dissonances, etc. everything you are likely to know about music falls under this “Western” system.

Developing parallel to Western music is any number of what we call Non-Western musical doctrines (yes, unless you are a musicologist, you tend to classify all music as either Western or Non-Western). This is Japanese music, Javanese gamelan, and any other usually Eastern types, but including things such as Aboriginal Australian and African music as well. They are based on different things. African music for one is based a lot on aesthetic, on feeling, they use instruments and pitches that are difficult to use in error, so that everything sounds “correct”

Now Bach is a very interesting individual musically. He had the primo job that a musician could have for most of his life, the director of a Church music program, Maestro di Capella. This is a double edged sword. Most of these positions were in private chapels owned by very rich families who used them only as vehicles to show off their own wealth. A lot of the competition for them was very ugly. A lot of composers who took these jobs also composed very secular works that at the time was borderline heresy. So having the church job by no means meant that you were pious. It would be interesting to see how he operated today. There’s no mention to my knowledge of Bach moving to and fro for any particular religious reason, always musical or money. Granted we will never know the true feelings of most composers of this time, because -not- doing it “For the glory of god” usually ended up shortening your lifespan considerably, secular or no. But this was a time where you absolutely did not live if you did not have money, so who could blame him? And yes he was an expert at using the formal structures of the day and crafting said pieces perfectly, and yes his legacy is followed by a great many.

But his legacy was also preceded by a great many. Popular musical form was by Bach’s time a good 150 years or so in the making (you’ll find 150 is a good number in early musical history).

Music history is rife with changes as polarized, shocking, and full of contempt as any social argument today from abortion to morality. From the Church executions on the use of the tritone, to Beethoven destroying the symphonic genre with the Ninth, Schoenberg divorcing tonality completely, John Cage composing 4’33" of silence, there is always something changing.

Can we really say that Bach is perfect? Granted Bach is good, but Bach leads to Beethoven, Beethoven leads to others, eventually you have Debussy, Rachmaninoff, Copland, Ewazen.

Consider the conditions under which the composer composed what he did.

Beethoven never worked for the Church. His Ninth Symphony is one of the most comprehensive musical works you can find, consisting of well over 30 or 40 musical forms, including anything Bach wrote. Not only that he shattered the Symphonic Genre by adding a Choral section in the final movement, the “Ode to Joy”. No music from this period is simply music, but a very complex message woven by the composer. What’s funny about Beethoven given your comment is that he knew he was good, he knew he was perfect, he lived under a self imposed apotheosis, and there’s plenty of letters and journals to document that. Beethoven’s message is like any artist of the Enlightenment though, we must strive together for greatness, to reach god, etc etc. But specifically Beethoven breaks the rules of music both literally and figuratively… the baritone in the choral movement sings, in the first words after 30 or 40 solid minutes of music “My friends, not these tones, let us sing something more agreeable”, to which the choir takes up on the climb to Elysium.

As Westerners we primarily judge music on the set-up and resolution of dissonances. The fact that we like this is by no means a natural phenomena. I can guarantee if I play for you one day a chord progression leading to “I”, and every day after that play the same progression except not resolving to “I”, for 50 years, even though you only heard it once, you will always be craving that original resolution.

Nothing else in life is as instilled into us as the yearning for the resolution of a dissonant interval. It can make you shake, it can distract you from work, it can make you restless, yearning, waiting for the ultimate arrival. This is why it was at one point the greatest offense to create such dissonance, because it was seen as evil. This is why symphonies usually end with a lot of repeats of the same chord, to drive the point home, finally we have arrived. This is why bugles are usually only played in the lower areas of the harmonic series, nice open octaves and fifths to inspire the troops.

Music truly is a universal language, it can create feeling with absolutely no words, it can tell a complete story (see: Don Quixote) or deliver a powerful message, it can invoke the presence of a higher power much easier and with more force than any sermon or scripture. It is the ultimate expression of the soul, though we might not always agree with or like the message, we can all agree on the attitude on which it was created. Nothing else created by man touches the soul so early and so completely. Our capacity to create something so perfect, so comprehensive, so powerful. It attests to God’s ability to do the same, and by extension attests to our being, as we say, in his image.

Music exists, in all forms, therefore God exists.
 
When you talk about the music of those such as Bach, or anything you are likely to listen to, you speak of the Western organization of tones and music. That is, in general, scales with consonances and dissonances, etc. everything you are likely to know about music falls under this “Western” system.

Developing parallel to Western music is any number of what we call Non-Western musical doctrines (yes, unless you are a musicologist, you tend to classify all music as either Western or Non-Western). This is Japanese music, Javanese gamelan, and any other usually Eastern types, but including things such as Aboriginal Australian and African music as well. They are based on different things. African music for one is based a lot on aesthetic, on feeling, they use instruments and pitches that are difficult to use in error, so that everything sounds “correct”

Now Bach is a very interesting individual musically. He had the primo job that a musician could have for most of his life, the director of a Church music program, Maestro di Capella. This is a double edged sword. Most of these positions were in private chapels owned by very rich families who used them only as vehicles to show off their own wealth. A lot of the competition for them was very ugly. A lot of composers who took these jobs also composed very secular works that at the time was borderline heresy. So having the church job by no means meant that you were pious. It would be interesting to see how he operated today. There’s no mention to my knowledge of Bach moving to and fro for any particular religious reason, always musical or money. Granted we will never know the true feelings of most composers of this time, because -not- doing it “For the glory of god” usually ended up shortening your lifespan considerably, secular or no. But this was a time where you absolutely did not live if you did not have money, so who could blame him? And yes he was an expert at using the formal structures of the day and crafting said pieces perfectly, and yes his legacy is followed by a great many.

But his legacy was also preceded by a great many. Popular musical form was by Bach’s time a good 150 years or so in the making (you’ll find 150 is a good number in early musical history).

Music history is rife with changes as polarized, shocking, and full of contempt as any social argument today from abortion to morality. From the Church executions on the use of the tritone, to Beethoven destroying the symphonic genre with the Ninth, Schoenberg divorcing tonality completely, John Cage composing 4’33" of silence, there is always something changing.

Can we really say that Bach is perfect? Granted Bach is good, but Bach leads to Beethoven, Beethoven leads to others, eventually you have Debussy, Rachmaninoff, Copland, Ewazen.

Consider the conditions under which the composer composed what he did.

Beethoven never worked for the Church. His Ninth Symphony is one of the most comprehensive musical works you can find, consisting of well over 30 or 40 musical forms, including anything Bach wrote. Not only that he shattered the Symphonic Genre by adding a Choral section in the final movement, the “Ode to Joy”. No music from this period is simply music, but a very complex message woven by the composer. What’s funny about Beethoven given your comment is that he knew he was good, he knew he was perfect, he lived under a self imposed apotheosis, and there’s plenty of letters and journals to document that. Beethoven’s message is like any artist of the Enlightenment though, we must strive together for greatness, to reach god, etc etc. But specifically Beethoven breaks the rules of music both literally and figuratively… the baritone in the choral movement sings, in the first words after 30 or 40 solid minutes of music “My friends, not these tones, let us sing something more agreeable”, to which the choir takes up on the climb to Elysium.

As Westerners we primarily judge music on the set-up and resolution of dissonances. The fact that we like this is by no means a natural phenomena. I can guarantee if I play for you one day a chord progression leading to “I”, and every day after that play the same progression except not resolving to “I”, for 50 years, even though you only heard it once, you will always be craving that original resolution.

Nothing else in life is as instilled into us as the yearning for the resolution of a dissonant interval. It can make you shake, it can distract you from work, it can make you restless, yearning, waiting for the ultimate arrival. This is why it was at one point the greatest offense to create such dissonance, because it was seen as evil. This is why symphonies usually end with a lot of repeats of the same chord, to drive the point home, finally we have arrived. This is why bugles are usually only played in the lower areas of the harmonic series, nice open octaves and fifths to inspire the troops.

Music truly is a universal language, it can create feeling with absolutely no words, it can tell a complete story (see: Don Quixote) or deliver a powerful message, it can invoke the presence of a higher power much easier and with more force than any sermon or scripture. It is the ultimate expression of the soul, though we might not always agree with or like the message, we can all agree on the attitude on which it was created. Nothing else created by man touches the soul so early and so completely. Our capacity to create something so perfect, so comprehensive, so powerful. It attests to God’s ability to do the same, and by extension attests to our being, as we say, in his image.

Music exists, in all forms, therefore God exists.
I agree. There is an idolatory of J.S. Bach (in which I myself also indulge). I believe Debussy said “people treat Bach like a kind of god musicians should pray to before practising.” Bach is superb, but we have other wonderful composers too. To say “who is greater, Bach of Chopin?” is an impossible question.

Do you think that musical systems are linked to theology? Take for example the tierce de piccardi, virtually omni-present in Bach. A metaphor for salvation, a faith that everything will resolve?

And the notion of progress and development, so essential to all Western music of the Baroque onwards- does it reflect the idea of a teleology of existence, a finitude and progress of the world?

In contrast, often ‘Eastern’ musics do not progress in this sense, but simple ‘are’ - a kind of different view of the universe as eternal and essentially unchanging?

To return to the Bach argument, here is another logical formulation:
  • there is no true beauty in this world
  • the musician aims to produce true beauty
  • the musician must have learned of this true beauty from something beyond this world
  • therefore something beyond this world (i.e. heaven, God) exists.
 
I agree. There is an idolatory of J.S. Bach (in which I myself also indulge). I believe Debussy said “people treat Bach like a kind of god musicians should pray to before practising.” Bach is superb, but we have other wonderful composers too. To say “who is greater, Bach of Chopin?” is an impossible question.
Bach. Chopin’s music is depressing. He’s probably the first emo artist and that is not a good thing.
This is a ridiculous argument from Kreeft.

He should know that Mozart, not Bach, is a far better proof for God! 👍

4 1/2 minutes. Turn up the volume.

youtube.com/watch?v=6KUDs8KJc_c
I raise with a Puccini:

youtube.com/watch?v=JQKQdwowbok
 
Bach. Chopin’s music is depressing. He’s probably the first emo artist and that is not a good thing.
Chopin is great- he express the eternal melancholy, which casts it pale shadow even our fleeting moments of laughter, smiles which conceal pain to deep to be named, the tears of this broken universe, trapped in the existential prison of the sempiternal twilight of its own ever-dying-ness.

The words of the Stabat Mater are also kind of depressing. But it’s wonderful. 🙂
 
I agree. There is an idolatory of J.S. Bach (in which I myself also indulge). I believe Debussy said “people treat Bach like a kind of god musicians should pray to before practising.” Bach is superb, but we have other wonderful composers too. To say “who is greater, Bach of Chopin?” is an impossible question.

Do you think that musical systems are linked to theology? Take for example the tierce de piccardi, virtually omni-present in Bach. A metaphor for salvation, a faith that everything will resolve?

And the notion of progress and development, so essential to all Western music of the Baroque onwards- does it reflect the idea of a teleology of existence, a finitude and progress of the world?

In contrast, often ‘Eastern’ musics do not progress in this sense, but simple ‘are’ - a kind of different view of the universe as eternal and essentially unchanging?

To return to the Bach argument, here is another logical formulation:
  • there is no true beauty in this world
  • the musician aims to produce true beauty
  • the musician must have learned of this true beauty from something beyond this world
  • therefore something beyond this world (i.e. heaven, God) exists.
Almost everything about the Western music is tied back to the Church at some point. Likewise any musical figures, the picardy third, plagal cadences, certain intervals, all had very specific meanings and uses. Music was a lot more… intellectual back then, composers added repeats of verses, this note instead of that note, for very specific religious reasons that were in practice of the time. A lot if it is sort of what we talk about today… a sort of “this makes me feel like there’s thunder happening” or something like that.

Perfect example is Heinrich Schutz “Saul, vas verfolgst du mich”. The idea here was the musical performance was split up into small groups (a very common practice), mutliple small orchestras, multiple small choirs. Choir A would be in the balcony over here, Choir B in the balcony over there etc. Schutz staggers the entrances of the choirs and bands on the word “Saul” to indicate how he perceives God’s voice, echoing, booming, almost hard to understand because it is so powerful.

The “tierce de piccardi” as you say developed from a sort of controversy. This is a minor set-up that of course suddenly resolves major, it gives a very “aha” moment. In sacred music it was not very appropriate to compose in minor modes (what we call minor today anyway) So composers would either dip in and out of minor really quickly, or write minor in such a way that it appears major, with things such as the third.

Its interesting to think of how critical audiences were. Even Kings and laymen could tell notes composed in errors, or figures that were composed in “defiance” and would end the career of that composer for it.

You should be aware that harmony in general used to be inappropriate. All music was sung in perfect unison (gregorian chant etc). Soon there came to be formulas and trends in introducing polyphony, very carefully. People got very creative, complex mathematical formulas and tonal resolutions, even more complicated than anything Bach came up with. This got so out of hand that people no longer understood what was actually being said, there was so much music, so many complicated lines, the text was lost. This is why the Council of Trent almost did away with polyphony all together. The legend goes that Palestrina “saved polyphony”, where otherwise we might all still be singing in unison, by showing that you can have multiple lines and still emphasize text.
 
CREDO

I’ll see your Puccini and raise you with a Verdi! 😃

youtube.com/watch?v=AZRIwD09IW0
Is that so? But against Vivaldi there can be no victory!

youtube.com/watch?v=anjwJ4Yo26Q
Credo

Beethoven’s 5th Piano Concerto (Second Movement) is trash next to Mozart’s 21 Piano Concerto Second Movement 😉

youtube.com/watch?v=UB1lXO31nVE&feature=related
I heartily disagree, but when talking piano, there can be only one:

youtube.com/watch?v=Y4XEPdYO5mM
 
Ok, here is a logical formulation of the argument.
  • The music of Bach communicates [to some people] a sense of the transcendent.
  • Therefore a sense of the transcendent must exist.
  • Therefore the transcendent must exist.
You can stop right here. It is common knowledge, but only to those who have studied rudimentary psychology or magic tricks, that the mind can easily imagine things which are not real. Any halfway competent hypnotist can get a good subject to see things in his brain which do not exist in reality, and to have these images persist post-trance.

Your previous statement is refuted by old, commonplace, everyday evidence.
-Therefore, a transcendent ‘something’ must exist.
  • This transcendent ‘something’ is God.
You offer no logical transition between the first of these two statements and the second.

Moreover, you’ve not defined the meaning of God. There are several different versions, according to different religions. Even the Catholic version is divided into thirds— if this is what you mean by God, which of these?
Another, simpler form.
  • People encounter something they call ‘God’ in the music of Bach.
  • Therefore, this ‘thing’ which they call ‘God’ must exist.
Once upon a time while listening to a friend play his emotionless and monotonous version of a Bach fugue, I closed my eyes, whereupon what appeared in my mind was an image of the pre-universe void.

Suddenly, as if from nowhere, a great green cat appeared in the void and defecated. Unable to find a place in the void to bury her output, the frustrated cat returned from whence she came, leaving only the lump of offal, which proceeded to evolve into our universe and ourselves.

Therefore this thing, the Great Green Cat, must exist, and is the creator of the universe.

IMO (unsolicited) before labeling yourself a philosopher, you at least ought to read a philosophy book.
 
Peter Kreeft, in his 20 proofs for the existence of God that he put into his “Handndbook of Catholic Apologetics”, offers this proof, with brief commentary:

**There is the music of Johan Sebastian Bach.
Therefore, there is a God.

You either see this one or you don’t.**

What are the merits of the proof? Discuss.
Music has an intrinsic meaning and can have an intense beauty that cannot be defined or described meaningfully in reference to physical things alone. Music has something within it that is very personal; thus it is thought that it is reasonable to attribute the existence of the intrinsic meaning and beauty we experience in the world to a personal cause that transcends physical reality.
 
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