The Killer Law!

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Valke2 said:
I don’t consider your attempt to lable a poster a murder because he is a Mormon. THat is what I consider ridiculous.
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I agree.
and again, no acion (banning, warning) will be taken because ‘they were standing up for Catholicism.’
Gee.
 
dosdog said:
Returned Mormon Missionary Tries To Murder His Wife And Baby
youtube.com/watch?v=LxVQ24E7QzU
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So your going to label a whole group of people, a religion no less, murderers, for the action of one, when none of the Mormons I know have expressed or excercized any homocidal tendancies/ fantasies/ beliefs.
What if were to find a drunk and disorderly Catholic (seen plenty, people) and say that ALL Catholics were drunk and disorderly 24/7.
That would seem a tad unfair now, wouldn’t it.
 
It all boils down to this:

Is abortion murder or is it not?

If it is, then why is it legal?

Also, women die of legal abortions just like thye used to die of illegal ones… butchery is butchery, whether legal or not…
 
contramundum7 said:
It all boils down to this:

Is abortion murder or is it not?

If it is, then why is it legal?

Also, women die of legal abortions just like thye used to die of illegal ones… butchery is butchery, whether legal or not…
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Borrowing from Laughlin’s Model Law
the German Nazi government adopted a law in 1933 that provided Laughlin proudly published a translation of the German Law for the Prevention of Defective Progeny in The Eugenical News

The Nazi philosophy which has taken over health care in the United States through the HMOs, as well as associated pro-euthanasia policies, was identified as early as 1949 in the New England Journal of Medicine. Dr. Leo Alexander, who had worked with the prosecution at the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal devoting to prosecuting the Nazi doctors, put his finger on it: It is the utilitarian attitude which classified some lives as not useful, or, in Hitler’s own words, ``not worthy to be lived.’’
LIVES UNWORTHY OF LIVING: EXPERT ON NAZI POLICIES

Birth Defects on Rise in China Province
Shanxi is one of China’s most heavily polluted regions, mainly as a result of mining and the use of high-sulfur coal.

No figures were given in the report, although data posted this month on the Web site of the government’s National Population and Family Planning Commission said the national rate of birth defects increased by nearly 50 percent over 2001-2006, rising to 145.5 per 10,000 births

Combined with other forms of visible defects and problems that don’t show up until several months after birth, a total of 1.2 million children were born with defects every year, accounting for up to 6 percent of all children born, according to the data.

According to the U.S. National Institutes of Health, birth defects affect about one out of 33 babies in the United States
lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-asia/2007/oct/29/102905018.html

whether to legalize euthanasia on people incapable of deciding for themselves
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A hospital in the Netherlands — the first nation to permit euthanasia — recently proposed guidelines for mercy killings of terminally ill newborns, and then made a startling revelation: It has already begun carrying out such procedures, which include administering a lethal dose of sedatives.

The announcement by the Groningen Academic Hospital came amid a growing discussion in Holland on whether to legalize euthanasia on people incapable of deciding for themselves whether they want to end their lives — a prospect viewed with horror by euthanasia opponents and as a natural evolution by advocates.
msnbc.msn.com/id/6621588/

Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
“Richard Weikart’s outstanding book shows in sober and convincing detail how Darwinist thinkers in Germany had developed an amoral attitude to human society by the time of the First World War, in which the supposed good of the race was applied as the sole criterion of public policy and ‘racial hygiene’. Without over-simplifying the lines that connected this body of thought to Hitler, he demonstrates with chilling clarity how policies such as infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of Darwinist writers and scientists, providing Hitler and the Nazis with a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they came to power.”

amazon.com/Darwin-Hitler-Evolutionary-Eugenics-Germany/dp/140397201X
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5942999411137186951

eugenicsarchive.org/html/eugenics/essaystextonly.html
uta.edu/public-affairs/pressreleases/page.php?id=2202
healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/library/historical/eugenics/3-buckvbell.cfm
blackgenocide.org/sanger.html
understandingrace.org/history/science/eugenics_physical.html
lifesite.net/waronfamily/Population_Control/Inherentracism.pdf
 
contramundum7 said:
It all boils down to this:

Is abortion murder or is it not?

If it is, then why is it legal?

Also, women die of legal abortions just like thye used to die of illegal ones… butchery is butchery, whether legal or not…
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Your last point is good, and one I hadn’t thought of. It’s true - all medical procedures carry risk. And this one might not lead to death - but it could lead to infections, which might, I suppose, lead to infertility.
 
Religious fanaticism comes in different shapes and guises. One variety is the Al-Qaeda type, which blows up innocent women and children in the streets of Bagdad in the name of religion; the other is the Catholic type, which murders poor innocent mothers of Nicaragua in the name of God with absurd and inhumane anti-abortion laws. But ultimately they all amount to the same thing—and originate from the same source.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Religious fanaticism comes in different shapes and guises. One variety is the Al-Qaeda type, which blows up innocent women and children in the streets of Bagdad in the name of religion; the other is the Catholic type, which murders poor innocent mothers of Nicaragua in the name of God with absurd and inhumane anti-abortion laws. But ultimately they all amount to the same thing—and originate from the same source.

zerinus
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Portals of the Night
By Dennis C Farley
Format: Adobe eBook
ISBN: 0-595-79195-6
Published: Mar-2006
Other Formats: Paperback

A compelling psychological thriller, Portals of the Night tells the story of attorney Robert Farwell and an experimental project that portends an ominous future for all mankind while delivering the shocking truth about Mormonism.
Book Description
A suspenseful psychological thriller, Portals of the Night profiles the ominous battle between good and evil as a small-town attorney confronts the Biblical myths predicting the end of the world and his personal apocalypse.

Robert Ashton Farwell becomes involved in an experimental project that propels him into the subconscious. Farwell ventures into the confusing, unfamiliar realm of inner-space, only to discover his life is in grave danger. Religious fanatics intent on killing Mormon defectors for violating secret temple ordinances force Farwell to become immersed again in the mysteries of the Mormon Church from which he had tried to escape. Former members are being executed. Farwell is next. He has thirty days to identify the assassins and prevent his own murder.

Through these dark portals the shocking truth about Mormonism is revealed.

Portals is an epic battle in the eternal struggle between the righteous and the wicked. It is a story of redemption and hope in a place where time has no meaning. The bridge spanning the gap between believers and nonbelievers is about to fall. The time to choose has arrived.

iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-79195-6
 
Medical Errors - third leading cause of death in the United States
The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error,

adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).
cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

The following stories have been sent to Abortion Concern by women who have experienced difficulties or distress after their abortions.

Personal Abortion Stories
abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php
 
Abortion Is Four Times Deadlier Than Childbirth
New Studies Unmask High Maternal Death Rates From Abortion
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.

Notably, the risk of suicide following a birth was about half that of the general population of women. This finding is consistent with previous studies that have shown that an undisturbed pregnancy actually reduces the risk of suicide.

Abortion, on the other hand, is clearly linked to a dramatic increase in suicide risk. This statistical finding is corroborated by interview-based studies which have consistently shown extraordinarily high levels of suicidal ideation (30-55 percent) and reports of suicide attempts (7-30 percent) among women who have had an abortion.(5) In many of these studies, the women interviewed have explicitly described the abortion as the cause of their suicidal impulses.
afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/finland.html
 
zerinus said:
Religious fanaticism comes in different shapes and guises. One variety is the Al-Qaeda type, which blows up innocent women and children in the streets of Bagdad in the name of religion; the other is the Catholic type, which murders poor innocent mothers of Nicaragua in the name of God with absurd and inhumane anti-abortion laws. But ultimately they all amount to the same thing—and originate from the same source.

zerinus
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Unlike the LDS fanaticism that murders poor innocent children in the womb?
 
zerinus said:
Yes, I remember that. In other words, the poor woman must necessarily be mutilated for your idea of “indirect abortion” to work. If it is possible to remove the fetus but keep the fallopian tube in place, that goes against your Catholic ethics. In both cases the baby is lost; but in the one case the woman remains whole, and in the other case she is mutilated. Mutilation is preferable to keeping the woman whole.

Try to remember, zerinus, Catholicism holds that human life begins at conception. All Catholic teaching on abortion is hinged on this.

Your argument that the Catholic Church condemns women with life-threatening (ie. ectopic) pregnancies to death has been disproven. If you have issues or questions regarding the “Catholic approved” treatment of ectopic pregnancy, they would best be addressed in the moral theology forum. I’d love to discuss this with you there.

Good grief! I can’t believe this. God allows the baby to implant in the fallopian tube. God has made both the baby and the tube. Now the “tube” becomes the “aggressor” and must be sliced off! The woman in the mean while must be mutilated.

What will kill the woman, the baby? That makes no sense. A baby is incapable of killing anyone. The tube, if it ruptures, will kill the woman. Do healthy tubes rupture? Of course not. A fallopian tube with a baby inside is unhealthy and may kill a woman.

Our God-given tonsils can become agressors. So can wisdom teeth, an appendix or breast tissue. They become agressors when they are unhealthy, causing us discomfort, pain and even death, when left in their natural state.

Are we mutilated when our tonsils are removed? How about wisdom teeth, an appendix or a breast? Aren’t these mutilations?

That is very kind of them. There was no need to change the law in the first place. Abortion was already against the law except when the health of the mother was at risk (determined by three independent doctors).

Abortion has long been illegal in Nicaragua but there had been exceptions for “therapeutic” reasons if three doctors agreed there was a risk to the woman’s life.

The new law (blanket ban) has created such an atmosphere of fear among the doctors and hospitals that no one dares to carry out an abortion for therapeutic reasons for fear of breaking the law. And what did the Catholic Church say about that?

The “atmosphere of fear” sounds like a legal matter. This hardly involves the Catholic Church.

Pope Benedict XVI welcomed the ban but added that women should not suffer or die as a result. “In this regard, it is essential to increase the assistance of the state and of society itself to women who have serious problems during pregnancy.”

That is very kind of the Pope. I am sure Nicaraguan women who are dying by the scores (in great agony) as a result of this law will be very grateful to the catholic Church for its support.

zerinus
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Here you contradict yourself. It is illogical to hold Church teaching responsible for the deaths of these Nicaraguan women. Do you understand that Catholicism allows for **life-saving **treatment of ectopic pregnancy? Maternal suffering and death are to be avoided, according to the Church. Benedict XVI makes this very point. Proper enactment of laws is outside the Church’s jurisdiction.
 
zerinus said:
Except for the mother I guess. That must be the only exception.

No, all human life is sacred. Expectant mothers very much included.

Yes, commandments which are often misunderstood or misinterpreted, as the ancient Pharisees used to do among the Jews.

Divine guidance protects against both misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

So what has the poor mother done, to deserve to die an agonizing death?

Nothing. She should not die. We agree on this point.

In my analogy, the preborn baby is the one who is killed in the treatment of ectopic pregnancy.

How can an unhealthy tube be an “aggressor”?

In any case, I thought this condition occurs as a result of an unhealthy fetus, not an unhealthy tube. It is the fetus that is the offending party, that attaches itself to the wrong place.

The same as any unhealthy body part can be an agressor, by threatening the rest of the body. Unhealthy (ie. cancerous) breast tissue can kill you.

I believe you’re wrong on the second point. A perfectly healthy baby can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, causing the tube to become unhealthy and rupture. Remember, we discussed the future possibility of removing the (healthy) baby from the tube and replacing it in the uterus?

By way of analogy, I can have healthy wisdom teeth that have simply grown in the wrong direction. The teeth themselves are fine. If they could be removed and replaced in the right way, I could keep them. Left in their natural state, they may cause much suffering.

Sounds crazy to me.

I understand where you’re coming from. Any theology about which we have insufficient knowledge or understanding is likely to sound crazy.

Still it sounds crazy to me.

zerinus
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You would probably become much better informed on Catholic teaching by posting questions in the moral theology forum. (I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen!) Or, if you’re not that interested in learning, you can always stay where you are.
 
Valke2 said:
It is not because people are suffering thorughout the world that we “approve” of abortions. I am saying that the cavilar (sp?) use of abortion is an indicator of something that is wrong with our world. And I believe that something is that we have built up an indifference/callousness to the suffering of others.

Unfortunately, there is no shortage of examples.
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Very well said. I couldn’t agree more. Pro-life is so much more than just anti-abortion.
 
MHalsey said:
hmm, I debated on whether to answer this. I even listed a few things, but then I realized: I am not answerable to you.
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i am not making you answerable to me. this is an open discussion, you and me both give answers at our own liberty.
MHalsey said:
Telling you is not the same as showing you. Why don’t you take a walk down to your local Catholic Charities office, soup kitchen, crisis nursery, SVdeP office, or respect life office to find out what people like myself are doing to help others in need.
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there are charities out there. i am pro-choice and yet for 3 years i did make regular monthly contributions to World Vision, to feed hungry children in poor countries. i stopped after having my own child.

the point is, the existence of charity organizations does not prove that pro-life cares more than everybody.
 
AgnosTheist said:
i am not making you answerable to me. this is an open discussion, you and me both give answers at our own liberty.

there are charities out there. i am pro-choice and yet for 3 years i did make regular monthly contributions to World Vision, to feed hungry children in poor countries. i stopped after having my own child.

the point is, the existence of charity organizations does not prove that pro-life cares more than everybody.
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I never said they did. I was responding to your post:
saying is one thing, doing is another. i’m sure most pro-life folks dont really go out of their way to help people in need.
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which is based on supposition. I only know of my own actions and those of my family and friends. But I’d be willing to bet that those who are pro-life are more likely to go out of their way to help than not.
 
zerinus said:
Religious fanaticism comes in different shapes and guises. One variety is the Al-Qaeda type, which blows up innocent women and children in the streets of Bagdad in the name of religion; the other is the Catholic type, which murders poor innocent mothers of Nicaragua in the name of God with absurd and inhumane anti-abortion laws. But ultimately they all amount to the same thing—and originate from the same source.

zerinus
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The other type of fanaticism is the one who place judgement to other belief based on his own sole criteria no matter what the other person explains, and no matter what proves such person provides.
 
swariffin said:
The other type of fanaticism is the one who place judgement to other belief based on his own sole criteria no matter what the other person explains, and no matter what proves such person provides.
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It’s also from a system that leads someone to be able to say 2+2=5 (or in Zernius’ case 99%=100%)
 
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