The Killer Law!

  • Thread starter Thread starter zerinus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Religious fanaticism comes in different shapes and guises. One variety is the Al-Qaeda type, which blows up innocent women and children in the streets of Bagdad in the name of religion; the other is the Catholic type, which murders poor innocent mothers of Nicaragua in the name of God with absurd and inhumane anti-abortion laws. But ultimately they all amount to the same thing—and originate from the same source.

zerinus
No, your statement regarding Catholic “religious fanatics” is illogical. Authentic Catholic teaching makes it clear (as does Benedict XIV in your link) that there is no need for women to die from life-threatening pregnancies. Anti-abortion laws, insofar as they conform to Catholic teaching, don’t kill anyone. If these laws are improperly acted upon (and true Catholic teaching ignored) it can be fatal for women. The Catholic Church, with the Pope as spokesperson, condemns these needless deaths.

The only people who would use Catholic teaching to sentence pregnant women to death are apostate Catholics and anti-Catholics.
 
No, your statement regarding Catholic “religious fanatics” is illogical. Authentic Catholic teaching makes it clear (as does Benedict XIV in your link) that there is no need for women to die from life-threatening pregnancies. Anti-abortion laws, insofar as they conform to Catholic teaching, don’t kill anyone. If these laws are improperly acted upon (and true Catholic teaching ignored) it can be fatal for women. The Catholic Church, with the Pope as spokesperson, condemns these needless deaths.

The only people who would use Catholic teaching to sentence pregnant women to death are apostate Catholics and anti-Catholics.
A blanket ban on abortion will invariably lead to deaths. The Catholic Church believes in a blanket ban. There is no need for a blanket ban. The life of the mother is of greater value than the life of a fetus. Even the Bible recognizes that. The penalty for taking the life of a woman is death, whereas the penalty for taking the life of a fetus is a fine, as I have shown in this post. The Catholic Church has many laws which are illogical, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unscriptural, and wrong. That is nothing new. The rule on priestly celibacy is another typical example.

zerinus
 
The life of the mother is of greater value than the life of a fetus. Even the Bible recognizes that. The penalty for taking the life of a woman is death, whereas the penalty for taking the life of a fetus is a fine, as I have shown in this post. The
Where does the Bible say the foetus is worthless than a woman?

Are you wearing your special reading glasses again? The ones that allow you to see text not present in the passages?

Why are you arguing this anyway, when you pretend your church is against abortion? It’s a further strange argument of yours. You’re saying THE LDS DON’T SUPPORT ABORTION and then THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS WRONG TO BE AGAINST ABORTION :whacky:
So in other words it’s right when the LDS are against it, but not when Catholics are! :hmmm:
Catholic Church has many laws which are illogical, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unscriptural, and wrong. That is nothing new. The rule on priestly celibacy is another typical example.

zerinus
Your argument here is illogical. It’s akin to saying “Zernius made 10 mistakes, therefore he made an 11th” Arguing that the RCC is wrong about Priestly celibacy (even if you were able to do this) does not prove your point about their stance on Abortion!

Anyway, you’re so against Catholics, check out this non-Catholic (non-Orthodox) site Ten Bible Reasons Why It Is Wrong
 
A blanket ban on abortion will invariably lead to deaths. The Catholic Church believes in a blanket ban. There is no need for a blanket ban. The life of the mother is of greater value than the life of a fetus. Even the Bible recognizes that. The penalty for taking the life of a woman is death, whereas the penalty for taking the life of a fetus is a fine, as I have shown in this post. The Catholic Church has many laws which are illogical, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unscriptural, and wrong. That is nothing new. The rule on priestly celibacy is another typical example.

zerinus
The following stories have been sent to Abortion Concern by women who have experienced difficulties or distress after their abortions.

Personal Abortion Stories
abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death # 3 killer
The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.
cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

Abortion Is Four Times Deadlier Than Childbirth
New Studies Unmask High Maternal Death Rates From Abortion
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.

Notably, the risk of suicide following a birth was about half that of the general population of women. This finding is consistent with previous studies that have shown that an undisturbed pregnancy actually reduces the risk of suicide.

Abortion, on the other hand, is clearly linked to a dramatic increase in suicide risk. This statistical finding is corroborated by interview-based studies which have consistently shown extraordinarily high levels of suicidal ideation (30-55 percent) and reports of suicide attempts (7-30 percent) among women who have had an abortion.(5) In many of these studies, the women interviewed have explicitly described the abortion as the cause of their suicidal impulses.
afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/finland.html

Essenes: This group is also referred to as the Qumran community; they are generally believed to be the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls uncovered in 1948

Essenes did not marry;

Rather than separate themselves within those communities, however, they withdrew themselves to the desert to live in enclaves which might be called communes but which bear a significant resemblance to later monasteries
academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/dfg/jesu/topic2.htm

Who were the Essenes?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are usually thought to have been produced by a group known as the Essenes. And the Essenes are a group that literally abandoned Jerusalem, it seems, in protest… against the way the Temple was being run. So here’s a group that went out in the desert to prepare the way of the Lord, following the commands, as they saw it, of the prophet Isaiah. And they go to the desert to get away from what they see to be the worldliness of Jerusalem and the worldliness of the Temple. Now the Essenes aren’t a new group in Jesus’ day. They too, had been around for a hundred years at that point in time. But it would appear that the reign of Herod, and probably even more so, the reign of his sons and the Roman Procurators, probably stimulated a new phase of life of the Essene community, rising as a growing protest against Roman rule and worldliness.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/essenes.html
 
I am paid by telling it as it is; no cover-up, no hiding the truth.

zerinus
OH PLEASE !!! twisting and bending the truth is what the mormon church leaders do.:rolleyes:

So Z… your saying and your leaders say Its OKAY
to have an ABORTION as long as the women has been raped? **HELLLOOOO **how many women or young girls claim rape these days and it was actually consent because they get scared?
 
A blanket ban on abortion will invariably lead to deaths. The Catholic Church believes in a blanket ban. There is no need for a blanket ban. The life of the mother is of greater value than the life of a fetus. Even the Bible recognizes that. The penalty for taking the life of a woman is death, whereas the penalty for taking the life of a fetus is a fine, as I have shown in this post. The Catholic Church has many laws which are illogical, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unscriptural, and wrong. That is nothing new. The rule on priestly celibacy is another typical example.

zerinus
Yes, a blanket ban on abortion will invariably lead to deaths. That’s why the Catholic Church believes in a ban on direct abortion only, not on *indirect *abortions that are the secondary result of life-saving medical procedures. Theologically and medically, there is no need for women to die because of a ban on direct abortion.

You provide a link to a post where you argue that the Mosaic Law considers a mother’s life more valuable than that of her preborn child. The next poster in the thread reminds you we are no longer under Mosaic Law. I (helped by posters from the Sacred Scripture forum) show how Mosaic Law may be interpreted very differently from the way you see it. Is that why the link shows your post only and not the thread?

You really should consider taking your beefs with Catholic Church teaching, one at a time, to the Apologetics forum. There you can back up your assertions instead of stating them baselessly in a thread that you started on the topic of abortion. I’ll talk priestly celibacy with you, in the appropriate place. Unfortunately, I’m not sure you mean to be constructive, but feel free to prove me wrong.
 
A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume). Here are some news reports:

ippf.org/NR/exeres/07FDE066-6CB9-4A65-8B72-9F59619D5643.htm
parentdish.com/2007/10/10/abortion-ban-in-nicaragua-leads-to-death/
iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/america/web.1127nicaragua.php

Is this Catholicism?

zerinus
Bump for:

Stephen168
oneGODoneCHURCH
cothrige
CJ Nick
sweetnay

and others who want to discuss Mormonism and abortion. I suggest you transfer your discussions to this thread, which is devoted to that topic, and rather than hijacking the Trinity thread on from its original purpost.

zerinus
 
In Catholicism, abortion is a sin, equated with murder. However, as with murder, there are various levels of culpability, and forgiveness is always available, through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In Mormonism, murder is the most horrible sin, because the individual can never make restitution. Abortion is “different” because making restitution to an unborn infant is a ridiculous concept. In past years, LDS did not consider abortion with any seriousness. There was no specific advice on the issue. Because Mormons believe in a spiritual pre-existence, with little spirit-babies floating around waiting for a body, abortion in the case of a defective baby, rape, or incest, or danger to the mother, is not a moral problem, because the spirit of the aborted baby will attach to a different fetus. In addition, in the cases of rape and incest, the view was that the aborted baby suffers for the sins of its immediate ancestors, and this is just and right.
However, today, as it allies itself with the political right, which includes other religious conservatives who oppose abortion but support unjust war and the death penalty, this attitude has changed. The official stance is that abortion is permissible in cases of rape, incest, a defective baby, and physical and emotional consequences on the mother. Given the prohibitive sexual restraints in Mormonism, any young woman who has become pregnant outside of marriage will naturally desire an abortion. She knows that the Mormon community will shame her to the point of self-loathing, and possibly even suicide. They think that it is their duty, to bring her to repentance for having made a sexual mistake. The Miracle of Forgiveness, the most popular ethical guide for modern-day LDS, mentions abortion only once. Note the lack of concern about the issue of shame in the following excerpt:

This is especially true if pregnancy results from the sin. In this situation it is the girl who suffers most. She must not have an abortion, for that would add serious sin to serious sin. She carries most of the burdens, while the boy often goes penalty-free. The girl must go through the uncomfortable nine months with its distress, deprivations, limitations and embarrassments, and then the pain and expense of delivery and the difficult life afterward. It is a cowardly boy who would not propose marriage, pay the costs, share the deprivations and embarrassment. Yet many young men have walked away and abandoned the girl to all the devastating payments for the sin of them both. (Kimball, 1993, Restitution for Loss of Chastity)

I do compliment Kimball for calling young men to responsibility. Today, with DNA paternity tests, the law does hold them responsible.
 
In Catholicism, abortion is a sin, equated with murder. However, as with murder, there are various levels of culpability, and forgiveness is always available, through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In Mormonism, murder is the most horrible sin, because the individual can never make restitution. Abortion is “different” because making restitution to an unborn infant is a ridiculous concept. In past years, LDS did not consider abortion with any seriousness. There was no specific advice on the issue. Because Mormons believe in a spiritual pre-existence, with little spirit-babies floating around waiting for a body, abortion in the case of a defective baby, rape, or incest, or danger to the mother, is not a moral problem, because the spirit of the aborted baby will attach to a different fetus. In addition, in the cases of rape and incest, the view was that the aborted baby suffers for the sins of its immediate ancestors, and this is just and right.
However, today, as it allies itself with the political right, which includes other religious conservatives who oppose abortion but support unjust war and the death penalty, this attitude has changed. The official stance is that abortion is permissible in cases of rape, incest, a defective baby, and physical and emotional consequences on the mother. Given the prohibitive sexual restraints in Mormonism, any young woman who has become pregnant outside of marriage will naturally desire an abortion. She knows that the Mormon community will shame her to the point of self-loathing, and possibly even suicide. They think that it is their duty, to bring her to repentance for having made a sexual mistake. The Miracle of Forgiveness, the most popular ethical guide for modern-day LDS, mentions abortion only once. Note the lack of concern about the issue of shame in the following excerpt:

This is especially true if pregnancy results from the sin. In this situation it is the girl who suffers most. She must not have an abortion, for that would add serious sin to serious sin. She carries most of the burdens, while the boy often goes penalty-free. The girl must go through the uncomfortable nine months with its distress, deprivations, limitations and embarrassments, and then the pain and expense of delivery and the difficult life afterward. It is a cowardly boy who would not propose marriage, pay the costs, share the deprivations and embarrassment. Yet many young men have walked away and abandoned the girl to all the devastating payments for the sin of them both. (Kimball, 1993, Restitution for Loss of Chastity)

I do compliment Kimball for calling young men to responsibility. Today, with DNA paternity tests, the law does hold them responsible.
You have got the wrong end of the stick I am afraid, like Catholics usually do. The problem with the Catholic stance on abortion is that it is deeply hypocritical—if not outright murderous and criminal. You condone murdering the mother for the sake of (supposedly) saving the life of the fetus (which may not be savable at all). That is the worst kind of hypocrisy imaginable. Hang the mother no matter what!

zerinus
 
And you, as usual, take one statement you disagree with, and condemn the whole thing. Not exactly Christian behavior, or behavior which will lead to any productive work on your part.
 
And you, as usual, take one statement you disagree with, and condemn the whole thing. Not exactly Christian behavior, or behavior which will lead to any productive work on your part.
Agreed. True hypocrisy is saying an unborn child is worthy of life, except when that child is the product of rape, incest, or has some terminal disease.
 
Jerusha,
The battle against abortion is obviously not going to be won in the courts or in government mandates, at least not at this point in the United States. You at least pointed out that Spencer W Kimball pinned much of the blame on the male in the case of out-of-wedlock pregnancies. I have been very familiar with this “direct inexcusable responsibility” not “boys-will-be-boys girls-watch-out” attitude all of my life within the LDS church. Your implication that abortion was condoned ever in the LDS church is absolutely your own completely uninformed opinion. I should know, having been an active member for over 50 years.

The LDS church actively teaches boys and young men that their bodies are sacred, that the gift of life is sacred, that girls and young women are to be treated with absolute respect, dignity, and never as an object either in their thoughts or in their actions. They also give young men the Aaronic Priesthood if they are worthy, and have frequent interviews with both Young Men and Young Women to help strengthen them in remaining virtuous including not viewing pornography and not having steady dating relationships until past age eighteen–plus no dating at all until age sixteen, and no petting in any dating relationship.

The men are actively taught that women are equal in every way, and are to be treated that way, with respect, deference, sensitivity, and never as an object. If the men and young men are listening, they will react to the very idea of rape or abortion with disgust. The priesthood responsibility given to those young men and men who are worthy devolves upon them the absolute responsibility to be virtuous in every thought and act. This is actively taught week by week, month by month and year by year.

I have no idea of the Catholic church approach in teaching its boys and men, but from the rehashes on these threads, I am led to assume only that the women are condemned if they have been unchaste, even to the point of calling them the “m” word (which presents a significant legal issue, if pressed in court, by the way) even if they were criminally assaulted. 🤷
 
The “M” word? :confused: Magdalene? Condemned for true repentance? That is a wierd statement!!

You may be right about the historical consistency. This guy would have surely mentioned it mrm.org/abortion in his discussion of doctrinal inconsistency.

Excuse me if I get impatient with you at times. Sometimes it is difficult to keep my traumatized emotions in check when communicating with Mormons like you.
 
I have no idea of the Catholic church approach in teaching its boys and men, but from the rehashes on these threads, I am led to assume only that the women are condemned if they have been unchaste, even to the point of calling them the “m” word (which presents a significant legal issue, if pressed in court, by the way) even if they were criminally assaulted. 🤷
I think it is no secret that the Catholic Church teaches chastity. This diversion has no meaning.
 
The same law essentially exists in this country. I say essentially because I believe there is some provision if the mothers life is at risk, but no mothers life has ever been at risk. The Medical experts say they have never met any circumstances where it is necessary to kill a child to save the mother. Traditionally the rule of thumb for the medical profession was always to try to save both the mother and the child.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top