The kneeling saga continues

[Patchunky]

I have no idea what his reasoning was, though.

He have been part of the movement that wanted to go to the older customs of the Church.

The 7th Ecumenical of Nicea in the 8th century decreed that there was to be NO KNEELING from Easter Sunday until Pentecost and NO KNEELING on Sundays whatsoever…

 

[Margita]

We show reverence to Our Lord Jesus Christ when we kneel and prostate before Him who created us and died for us.

I never said we don’t.

As a life long Catholic I see standing as just another modern change taking devotion away from the Mass and making it more Protestant, more of this world rather than the spiritual.

Have you ever seen a Protestant stand up at the Elevation?

But that is beside the point. All my remarks referred to the situation when there are no pews, and everybody else in the church is standing, except me. It may be modern, it may make it more Protestant, but the point is, unless the priest reinstates the kneelers (which would be a benefit), people stand. The first step would be to approach the pastor, but unless you do so, don’t make mass an act of private devotion. We should be in unity with the people we are celebrating with. This will not make mass a “social event.”

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I never said so.

That is what I have been taught. However, I have also been taught to worship God and give Him thanks at Mass in a way that is not offensive, embarrassing, or indicative of anything but charity and piety in the eyes of the congregation. If there is reason to think that my kneeling would make others standing around me think that I am following a private route of my own when I am worshipping with them, I would not kneel. Much as it would be against my feelings, in this case, I have to take the feelings of others into account. I would hate to think I might appear to be “holier than thou.”

That is all I wished to say, no more, no less I did not for a moment think Mass was for social functions.

It does not matter what the congregation thinks, or how it makes the people around me feel, if I’m following the liturgical norms of the Church. It’s not about I’m right your wrong, it’s about following the direction of the Church.

 

[Margita]

It does not matter what the congregation thinks, or how it makes the people around me feel, if I’m following the liturgical norms of the Church. It’s not about I’m right your wrong, it’s about following the direction of the Church.

Very well. I humbly accept that for put in this way, it is convincing.
:bowdown:
So I understand the OP should kneel, praying he may offend nobody, especially the priest of the parish, and leave the rest to God.

 

[SORROWS]

Margita,

I am curious how long you have been Cathollic as your public record does not state you are Catholic but n/a.

Anyway, you are wrong about Mass not being an act of private devotion. Yes there is fellowship as a community as we join in the sacraficial banquet of Christ, but prayer is a big part of the Mass and each individual does their own private prayer for their own intentions.

I’m also wondering where it will stop. From standing why don’t we just sit and not worry about reverence and offending all the others. There is something called Holy Boldness and each one of us needs to get busy and not let political correctness take over even our Holy Church.

I know you won’t change in your position but not all Catholics will just adapt to what everyone else is doing.
This is my feelings. I’ll step down now.
Blessings

 

[Morning_Star15]

Very well. I humbly accept that for put in this way, it is convincing.
:bowdown:
So I understand the OP should kneel, praying he may offend nobody, especially the priest of the parish, and leave the rest to God.

I missed the part where the OP’s priest instructed everyone not to kneel.

This might be hard for some to believe, but not having kneelers doesn’t make our knees disappear - we are just as capable of kneeling without them.

 

[the_phoenix]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal clearly states that we are to kneel at certain points.

Well then, there you have it. I will kneel with or without a kneeler, thank you very much.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Joan_M]

Our Lord and St Paul also emphasized charity, especially when we celebrate together as a community. St Paul had something to say about eating and scandal… you might want to check it out.
I don’t think Our Lord would appreciate individualism as much as a bit of restraint in individual devotion for the sake of others around us. Mass is for celebrating as a community. I used to whisper the Our Father and the Credo in my native language until I realised that I am not in harmony with the people around us - now I say them in English and I have not yet died of it.

It is not individualism to kneel when the rules say you should, even if you are the only one doing it.

Mass is not for celebrating as a community. It is for worshiping God in the manner His Church has directed. Anything else is disobedience.

Saying the prayers in your native language, if the Mass is celebrated in another language, may be the only way you can participate. If you know the language of celebration, certainly you should join in, but if you do not, there is nothing wrong with quitely saying them in your own language.

Let’s not get tied up with taking things out of context. There is nothing scandalous with correctly observing the Instructions laid down by the Church, or with participating in your own language.

 

[Cobbfmly]

The pews along the side wall of our church do not have kneelers. We purchased kneeling cushions (usually used for gardening) that we use when we sit in these pews.

I actually prefer the cushions to the kneelers as the cushion is deeper than the kneeler and I can position the cushion so that I am not pressed up against the pew in front of me.

You can get kneeling cushions at dollar and clearance stores for $1 to $1.50.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Wow, you guys/gals sure have strong feelings on the issue! Thank you all for your personal opinions.

I reluctantly stood again today. Yes, kneeling SHOULD be done, but I can’t help but think that uniformity as a community is also important. Speaking for myself, I am in total awe during the Eucharistic prayer and consecration. My heart is in the right place. I do firmly resolve, to the best of my abilities, to get kneelers brought back into the parish. I’m a nominee for the parish council, so if/when I get on I will make sure to press the issue.

One thing I’m still unsure of, though, is whether or not it is disobedient (to the diocese? to the Vatican?) to not kneel. Is that a law of the church for the United States?

 

[Magnum_V8]

He have been part of the movement that wanted to go to the older customs of the Church.

The 7th Ecumenical of Nicea in the 8th century decreed that there was to be NO KNEELING from Easter Sunday until Pentecost and NO KNEELING on Sundays whatsoever…

Interesting.

I don’t THINK he was part of that, but maybe I could find more information about the “older customs” you mention and compare.

 

[Margita]

I do firmly resolve, to the best of my abilities, to get kneelers brought back into the parish. I’m a nominee for the parish council, so if/when I get on I will make sure to press the issue.

It is good there is something you can do to change the situation, I hope you will succeed.

One thing I’m still unsure of, though, is whether or not it is disobedient (to the diocese? to the Vatican?) to not kneel. Is that a law of the church for the United States?

I cannot imagine so - surely not all churches in the US lack kneelers!

 

[Miserissima]

I cannot imagine so - surely not all churches in the US lack kneelers!

When I was overseas, it did my heart good when my fellow soldiers would all kneel regardless of kneelers being present. Oftentimes we shared church or tent space, so kneelers weren’t a priority.

I rememeber when I had dislocated my knee, I couldn’t kneel at Mass so I made a bow or sat down and bent low instead. I still felt very akward.

 

[Like]

personally, I find kneelers uncomfortable and find bare floor preferable… but that is just me. As far as your motives… discern whether you are just trying to make a point, if the answer is no… feel free to kneel. I bet others are just dying to join you.

Happy to hear that BlestOne. I really thought I was the odd ball because I’d rather knee on the hard floor than a cushion pad. And not to do so as to be holier than thou. Even at home when praying the Rosary I kneel on the floor. The wife thinks I’m crazy & she’s probably right.

 

[Joan_M]

Wow, you guys/gals sure have strong feelings on the issue! Thank you all for your personal opinions.

I reluctantly stood again today. Yes, kneeling SHOULD be done, but I can’t help but think that uniformity as a community is also important.

Uniformity is NOT important. Unity is. There is a very big difference. And unity with the rules laid down by the Church is far, far more important than unity with disobedient people!

Speaking for myself, I am in total awe during the Eucharistic prayer and consecration. My heart is in the right place. I do firmly resolve, to the best of my abilities, to get kneelers brought back into the parish. I’m a nominee for the parish council, so if/when I get on I will make sure to press the issue.

One thing I’m still unsure of, though, is whether or not it is disobedient (to the diocese? to the Vatican?) to not kneel. Is that a law of the church for the United States?

It is disobedience to both the Vatican and to the National Conference of Bishops. The GIRM calls for kneeling for a part of the Eucharistic prayer. However, the USCCB asked for and received permission from the Vatican for the rule to be kneeling from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Great Amen. This rule was also allowed for other conferences of Bishops, such as the Antilles Episcopal Conference.

---

Som yes kneeling for the entire Eucharistic prayer is a law for the United States. And, nowhere does it say that if there are no kneelers you do not have to kneel.

 

[mdgspencer]

I understand the psychological pressure people feel about not kneeling during the eucharistic prayer, though liturgical law requires it. In fact once during a small-group mass, for example, I stood then because I felt doing otherwise in that case would have been a distraction to the others. But, all in all, I feel I should obey God and not men, that I should follow the what the Church says and kneel during the eucharistic prayer. I just kneel down without paying any attention to what others do. Though I admit this is easier for me because I was never particularly a conformist, and am very stubborn when someone tries to get me to do something wrong. I would think anyone very conflicted about this situation should go to another parish though, because such inner conflict is disruptive to worship.
I realize that kneeling has not always been the norm. If I understand correctly, Byzantine rite Catholics stand through during the mass. However their liturgical laws are different from those of the Latin tite.

 

[MusicMan]

If I understand correctly, Byzantine rite Catholics stand through during the mass. However their liturgical laws are different from those of the Latin tite.

In some of the Byzantine Church and in some parts of the year, they don’t kneel during the comparable part of the Liturgy of the Word. In other parts of that particular Church and in other parts of the year, they do. Some Byzantine Churches have pews, others don’t. Latinizations have prevented uniformity within the Eastern Rite Churches.

The Byzantine Church I go to when I visit my inlaws has pews and kneelers. Just like we do in the Latin Church, we kneel and pray before Mass and after we’ve returned to our seats from receiving Communion. We also kneel for specific parts of the Liturgy pertaining to the Consecration.

I was quite surprised the first time I went.

 

[Susanjane190]

I never said so.

That is what I have been taught. However, I have also been taught to worship God and give Him thanks at Mass in a way that is not offensive, embarrassing, or indicative of anything but charity and piety in the eyes of the congregation. If there is reason to think that my kneeling would make others standing around me think that I am following a private route of my own when I am worshipping with them, I would not kneel. Much as it would be against my feelings, in this case, I have to take the feelings of others into account. I would hate to think I might appear to be “holier than thou.”

That is all I wished to say, no more, no less I did not for a moment think Mass was for social functions.

Again, I completely agree with Margita on this issue.

 

[HumbleMom]

After the mass on Holy Thursday, we have a short time for Eucharistic adoration. The priest processes around the church with the Eucharist first. Because of some slight fumbling and the unfamiliarity of this annual mass, many parishiners did not know what to do with themselves while the procession was occuring. I was in the back of the church and felt very uncomfortable standing. As a convert, I am always worried that I will offend someone by not knowing the proper response in any given situation. I felt sure I should be kneeling, but I saw that many very devout people whose love for the Eucharist I would not question were still standing. I was still in a quandry when the Eucharist passed by me and I found I had no choice but to kneel. My body said, we’re going down now, and that’s all there was to it. I don’t think anyone was offended - I hope not However, while vacationing, my husband and I found ourselves in a church where there were kneelers, but no one was kneeling. We knelt. I know they were offended, but it was unnatural to us not to kneel during the consecration. Over the years, we have returned to this church and they are now kneeling too (not through our influence - they have a new priest ).

 

[neophyte]

The point is, you ALL kneel. You do this unanimously - in agreement. But when the congregation stands up and you kneel down - you may, individually, show your reverence to the Eucharist, but you show your disagreement to the congregation and probably diminish their own devotion by your embarrassing behavior. Not to mention the fact that you also break the unity expressed by the uniform posture of the congregation.

It seems to me that if the congregation is neglecting to kneel when the rubrics call for it, then it is they who are breaking unity with the Church. And if they find my kneeling to be embarrassing, well, if they kneeled then they wouldn’t be embarrassed.

It’s my understanding that it is within the purview of the Bishop to decide between kneeling or standing after the Agnus Dei. When I first entered the Church this caused me a bit of confusion and discomfort as I travel around, but now I just take my cue from everyone else when I’m in an unfamiliar diocese.

But after the Holy, Holy, Holy - I kneel because it’s what the rubrics call for, kneelers or not and regardless of what anyone else does.