The kneeling saga continues

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I agree that innovations are wrong. But I would never disrupt the Mass for any reason.

and certainly kneeling is a form of adoration, and these people know this, but standing is the posture of the resurrection.

Again I’m not saying that kneeling is wrong, just that standing is a reverent and acceptable posture, especially if the celebrant feels that there is a good reason to stand.

Lux
 
What good reason would there be—in a church—not to kneel for our Lord.

Ps. this is not meant for those who have a medical condition --that makes it difficult and/or prevents them from kneeling.
 
What good reason would there be—in a church—not to kneel for our Lord.
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I do not feel called to question a priest or bishop on his reason. I would just respect his request, since I do not feel that standing is wrong.

And if everyone else is standing, I would feel that I should not call attention to myself by kneeling. At one time I did feel called to kneel, even if I was the only one, but I have come to see that that the unity aspect is more important.

Lux
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
Quote:
What good reason would there be—in a church—not to kneel for our Lord.

I do not feel called to question a priest or bishop on his reason. I would just respect his request, since I do not feel that standing is wrong.

And if everyone else is standing, I would feel that I should not call attention to myself by kneeling. At one time I did feel called to kneel, even if I was the only one, but I have come to see that that the unity aspect is more important.

Lux
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If we had addressed the actions of our priests and bishops–30-40 years ago—we may not be experiencing the problems we have now. The “Spirit of Vat II” would not have taken us the way it has.

By the way—this “calls attention to yourself” and is not a sign of “unity” — is just a meanuver aimed to diminish kneeling.
 
By the way—this “calls attention to yourself” and is not a sign of “unity” — is just a meanuver aimed to diminish kneeling.
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I don’t agree. The GIRM does state this, and all the instructions on posture do emphesize it. I do kneel (as long as my knees agree) when kneeling is the norm (even for Holy Communion), but what I dislike is when someone claims that kneeling is more reverent than standing.

But thanks for the nice exchange.

Lux
 
If we had addressed the actions of our priests and bishops–30-40 years ago—we may not be experiencing the problems we have now. The “Spirit of Vat II” would not have taken us the way it has.
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I agree that it should be addressed, just not during Mass.
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
I don’t agree. The GIRM does state this, and all the instructions on posture do emphesize it. I do kneel (as long as my knees agree) when kneeling is the norm (even for Holy Communion), but what I dislike is when someone claims that kneeling is more reverent than standing.

But thanks for the nice exchange.

Lux
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What I dislike is when kneeling is made to be a “penetential” posture—when in reality the Church says different.
 
wannabee said:
BAH - as far as we are concerned and remember we are Catholics ] kneeling is penitential
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By myself I have sworn,
from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
`To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.
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Isaiah 45:23
for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
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Romans 14:11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
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Phillipeans 2:10
 
The current instruction of the Church in the Latin Rite is that we are supposed to kneel down during the Consecration. In the United States, we are to kneel right up until the Great Amen; in other places, we are to kneel until the start of the Memorial Acclamation.

I don’t know what’s so difficult about that - someone mentioned early in the thread that if your church doesn’t have kneelers, you can buy a kneeling pad from the gardening store for less than $2.00 - and if you have strong knees and a strong back, there is nothing wrong with kneeling on the floor.

Questions about what the rules are for other Rites, or what they were in the fifth century are interesting, but not applicable to us as Latin Rite Catholics, so I don’t really understand the point of bringing them up in this context. 🤷
 
Questions about what the rules are for other Rites, or what they were in the fifth century are interesting, but not applicable to us as Latin Rite Catholics, so I don’t really understand the point of bringing them up in this context.
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The question arises when a bishop (or even the celebrant) requests the congregation to stand. I personally would respect the request, since this is a reasonable request, and I would not question the reason, especially during Mass.

As was stated the GIRM does allow for these exceptions
  1. …
    In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.
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Lux
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
The question arises when a bishop (or even the celebrant) requests the congregation to stand. I personally would respect the request, since this is a reasonable request, and I would not question the reason, especially during Mass.

As was stated the GIRM does allow for these exceptions
Quote:
43. …
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.

Lux
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As I asked before—If one is medically capable, there is no lack of space, large number of people–well if they can kneel, what “other” good reason is there to forbid kneeling. Some shepards idea to squash our traditions.
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
The question arises when a bishop (or even the celebrant) requests the congregation to stand.
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He doesn’t have the authority to make that request, though, because the current rule of the Church is that we kneel. No Bishop or priest is ever above the Church itself.

When two authorities disagree, we must obey the higher authority, and in this case, the Church is a higher authority than any individual priest or Bishop.
 
When two authorities disagree, we must obey the higher authority, and in this case, the Church is a higher authority than any individual priest or Bishop.
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This is where there is a difference. I was told that respecting the authority of the Bishop or priest is more important than liturgical norms, unless it is a grave matter (these are listed in RS). Also there are those exceptions to the norm.

Lux
 
jmcrae said:
He doesn’t have the authority to make that request, though, because the current rule of the Church is that we kneel. No Bishop or priest is ever above the Church itself.

When two authorities disagree, we must obey the higher authority, and in this case, the Church is a higher authority than any individual priest or Bishop.
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But the Church Itself, via the Pope giving the recognito for the USCCB edition of the GIRM as promulgated. In the US, the bishop CAN ask you to stand as the correct posture until you have received communion with valid force. He may request, but not compel, standing until all have received as a sign of unity.

He may not make issue of not standing at nor after reception. He may make issue of not standing (or of standing) from the Agnus Dei to reception of communion.

See** General Instructions of the Roman Missal **as promulgated for the United States by the USCCB. The document is available at USCCB.org, and has been given recognito (approval) by Pope John Paul II in its current form. (3rd typical edition, IIRC.)
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
I was told that respecting the authority of the Bishop or priest is more important than liturgical norms, unless it is a grave matter (these are listed in RS). Also there are those exceptions to the norm.

Lux
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You were told incorrectly. One is required to obey the correct legistlating authority on the matter.

In some cases, the priest or the bishop is the legislator, but in many, if not most, cases, the Holy See is the legislator.
 
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