The Late 60s and the Transition - Reflections and Recollections

[tcraig]

I agree with your phrase “Catholic Identity” and that is key. I come from a Protestant background and I know each denomination has certain identifiers and ways they express worship and devotion. For some Protestants, it’s Bible study, for others, it might be the singing, for others it might be prayer meetings. Yet when so many of the devotions were taken away from Catholics, along with completely altering the liturgy and most of the churches, their identity, in a sense, was taken away from them.

That phrase resonates with me. I’m a former protestant. I discovered the existence of the TLM while googling online for “traditional Catholic devotions” shortly after my conversion. I knew that I was now a Catholic, but I certainly didn’t *feel *Catholic and I was trying to find something to bring the Catholic faith into my home and daily life.

My fellow Catholics seemed so … disconnected, I guess … from their faith. Nothing about their homes advertised their faith. It was a Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation kind of thing. There were no adult Sunday School classes, no Wednesday night suppers, no women’s Bible studies, no rosary before mass, etc. Even the kids started disappearing after 8th grade confirmation. I do realize that many NO parishes are different from this, but my experience has been the opposite.

It was only when we moved and were able to attend the TLM that I truly “felt” Catholic for the first time. It’s hard to explain …

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

That phrase resonates with me. I’m a former protestant. I discovered the existence of the TLM while googling online for “traditional Catholic devotions” shortly after my conversion. I knew that I was now a Catholic, but I certainly didn’t *feel *Catholic and I was trying to find something to bring the Catholic faith into my home and daily life.

My fellow Catholics seemed so … disconnected, I guess … from their faith. Nothing about their homes advertised their faith. It was a Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation kind of thing. There were no adult Sunday School classes, no Wednesday night suppers, no women’s Bible studies, no rosary before mass, etc. Even the kids started disappearing after 8th grade confirmation. I do realize that many NO parishes are different from this, but my experience has been the opposite.

It was only when we moved and were able to attend the TLM that I truly “felt” Catholic for the first time. It’s hard to explain …

Yes, I remember a story Fr. James McClucas related (he celebrates the TLM). He was celebrating Mass and a fairly famous Catholic apologist (who he did not name but had been Catholic for a number of years) was there. They had converted from Protestantism. Anyway, he noticed that after the Mass they stayed in their pew and were crying. So, after a bit he went over to them to see if anything was wrong. No, the person said, nothing was wrong. It’s just that for the first time since their conversion they felt truly Catholic.

 

[Mary1973]

Broterholf,

I am the same age as you. I remember all the changes. At the time, we all thought it was great. Of course, at that time I didn’t really understand the full impact of what was going on. Who expected all the rotten fruit such as priests saying contraception was okay and you didn’t have to go to Mass on Sunday?

If the Church suddenly went back to the TLM, it would be just as devasting for those who don’t know it as the NO was for other people. And as for myself, I am not sure that the TLM would be my preference.

All priests should be required to see how Mass is celebrated on EWTN. That is a wonderful NO Mass.

 

[brotherhrolf]

That phrase resonates with me. I’m a former protestant. I discovered the existence of the TLM while googling online for “traditional Catholic devotions” shortly after my conversion. I knew that I was now a Catholic, but I certainly didn’t *feel *Catholic and I was trying to find something to bring the Catholic faith into my home and daily life.

My fellow Catholics seemed so … disconnected, I guess … from their faith. Nothing about their homes advertised their faith. It was a Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation kind of thing. There were no adult Sunday School classes, no Wednesday night suppers, no women’s Bible studies, no rosary before mass, etc. Even the kids started disappearing after 8th grade confirmation. I do realize that many NO parishes are different from this, but my experience has been the opposite.

It was only when we moved and were able to attend the TLM that I truly “felt” Catholic for the first time. It’s hard to explain …

II think I have an idea of what you are trying to express. The world in which I grew up before Vatican II is not what is expressed today and yet there are elements that have survived.

Give me a couple of days to reflect. I’ll ask my friend palmas85 to reflect and consider as well - you have hit the nail on the head.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Broterholf,

I am the same age as you. I remember all the changes. At the time, we all thought it was great. Of course, at that time I didn’t really understand the full impact of what was going on. Who expected all the rotten fruit such as priests saying contraception was okay and you didn’t have to go to Mass on Sunday?

If the Church suddenly went back to the TLM, it would be just as devasting for those who don’t know it as the NO was for other people. And as for myself, I am not sure that the TLM would be my preference.

All priests should be required to see how Mass is celebrated on EWTN. That is a wonderful NO Mass.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that not all of us thought the changes were great. There were many of us who were still in high school when the changes occurred and the speed in which they occurred was appalling. I still resent having to sing Simon and Garfunkle at my Catholic high school graduation Mass in 1969.

I can say for myself that I am sure that I do not want to go back to the TLM exclusively. You had congregational participation in a sung Solemn High Mass but not no congregational participation at weekday Low Mass.

But you bring up a very, very good point…I watched the All Saints Day Mass on EWTN and was blown away - that is what we should all be doing.

My children grew up in a cathedral parish where they were exposed to Latin sacred motets and Gregorian chant. They at least know how to sing the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. My oldest (26) floored me last year at Thanksgiving when he recited the sign of the cross in Latin as we said grace.

The young people on these threads fill my heart with hope.

 

[palmas85]

II think I have an idea of what you are trying to express. The world in which I grew up before Vatican II is not what is expressed today and yet there are elements that have survived.

Give me a couple of days to reflect. I’ll ask my friend palmas85 to reflect and consider as well - you have hit the nail on the head.

His post was very telling and very true. He did hit the nail on the head.

As an aside, do you ever make it down to St Patricks for the 5:30 Mass on Sunday afternoons? If not you need to. It is quite possibly the best Pauline Rite vernacular Mass I have ever attended anywhere. I’ll tell you brother, had the Pauline been celebrated the way it is done at St Patricks from the beginning, we really wouldn’t be in the position of disunity that we are today, and I mean that from the heart. I was totally blown away.

And you know how traditional minded I am:thumbsup: . Of course, I always knew in my heart that if there was going to be a truly reverent Pauline Mass anywhere, one would be in New Orleans.

 

[Aramis]

(I mean really, when was the last time anyone said the Confiteor much less the Creed at an English NO?) becoming mandatory is that entirely different from the TLM with the exception that there are three other Eucharistic rites which could be used.

Just about every week in the parishes of the Archdiocese of Anchorage. I’ve never been to a sunday mass without the confeitor, and have never been to a mass without the creed.

And we sing the creed in the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy.

 

[brotherhrolf]

As an aside, do you ever make it down to St Patricks for the 5:30 Mass on Sunday afternoons? If not you need to. It is quite possibly the best Pauline Rite vernacular Mass I have ever attended anywhere. I’ll tell you brother, had the Pauline been celebrated the way it is done at St Patricks from the beginning, we really wouldn’t be in the position of disunity that we are today, and I mean that from the heart. I was totally blown away.

Too late in the day for me. We usually head down early in the morning to be in time for the 9:30 TLM and then off to the Quarter for Cafe du Monde and a late lunch. If it is anything like what I saw on EWTN on All Saints Day, then, yes, I would wholeheartedly agree.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Just about every week in the parishes of the Archdiocese of Anchorage. I’ve never been to a sunday mass without the confeitor, and have never been to a mass without the creed.

And we sing the creed in the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy.

Then you are very fortunate. I have not heard the Confiteor in years and even though mine is a cathedral parish, the Creed is often not said. The last time I heard the Credo sung, it was in Latin chant.

 

[Aramis]

Then you are very fortunate. I have not heard the Confiteor in years and even though mine is a cathedral parish, the Creed is often not said. The last time I heard the Credo sung, it was in Latin chant.

Then complain, politely, in writing, to your Pastor and CC the Bishop.

If we do not complain, it is likely nothing will happen.

Requiring the confeitor be used is within the Bishops’ competence.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Tcraig: I have not forgotten you. I just don’t have the words yet to condense all that I feel much less try to condense the last 40 years into something which would make sense to you.

Part of the problem is that I grew up in New Orleans. The New Orleans that palmas85 and I know differs substantially from public perception. Contrary to what you see on TV or read about, New Orleans was/is a very Catholic city. All of south Louisiana is predominately Catholic. Our faith is so intertwined with our cultural heritage as to be inseperable.

I led a very sheltered life. I didn’t have to defend my faith. It came as a very rude awakening to me to join the business world and to encounter fundamenalist protestantism for the very first time. Jimmy Swaggert had not fallen when I joined the business world in Baton Rouge after graduation. (Kudos to Karl Keating whose landmark book gave me what I needed to know back then). I took Catholicism for granted - it’s all I had ever known.

How do I express growing up in a city where if you rode public transportation and passed a church, it was not at all odd to see multiple numbers of people making the sign of the cross? Or, yes, even to this day in both Baton Rouge and New Orleans to see folks with ashes on their forehead on Ash Wednesday?

I don’t know how to explain in this day and time, the mindset of my parish in suburban NO in 1970. Certainly there were some who embraced the change. But there was an awful lot of us who didn’t like it but who would not go against the magesterium of the Church.

When I hear folks like you say that they “felt Catholic” for the first time when attending the TLM, I cringe but I know in my heart what you are talking about.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Tcraig: I have not forgotten you. I just don’t have the words yet to condense all that I feel much less try to condense the last 40 years into something which would make sense to you.

Part of the problem is that I grew up in New Orleans. The New Orleans that palmas85 and I know differs substantially from public perception. Contrary to what you see on TV or read about, New Orleans was/is a very Catholic city. All of south Louisiana is predominately Catholic. Our faith is so intertwined with our cultural heritage as to be inseperable.

I led a very sheltered life. I didn’t have to defend my faith. It came as a very rude awakening to me to join the business world and to encounter fundamenalist protestantism for the very first time. Jimmy Swaggert had not fallen when I joined the business world in Baton Rouge after graduation. (Kudos to Karl Keating whose landmark book gave me what I needed to know back then). I took Catholicism for granted - it’s all I had ever known.

How do I express growing up in a city where if you rode public transportation and passed a church, it was not at all odd to see multiple numbers of people making the sign of the cross? Or, yes, even to this day in both Baton Rouge and New Orleans to see folks with ashes on their forehead on Ash Wednesday?

I don’t know how to explain in this day and time, the mindset of my parish in suburban NO in 1970. Certainly there were some who embraced the change. But there was an awful lot of us who didn’t like it but who would not go against the magesterium of the Church.

When I hear folks like you say that they “felt Catholic” for the first time when attending the TLM, I cringe but I know in my heart what you are talking about.

I pray for more cities like New Orleans, then. It’s always seemed unique to me even though I’ve never been there and your post helps explain why.

 

[Sr_Sally]

(I mean really, when was the last time anyone said the Confiteor much less the Creed at an English NO?)

Sunday. And then the Sunday before that. And the Sunday before that… There are many reverant OF English Masses. I agree that the transition (if there is a complete one at all) should be slow, but I don’t see any reason why all Masses should be said in Latin as long as the Mass itself is said correctly and reverantly.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sunday. And then the Sunday before that. And the Sunday before that… There are many reverant OF English Masses. I agree that the transition (if there is a complete one at all) should be slow, but I don’t see any reason why all Masses should be said in Latin as long as the Mass itself is said correctly and reverantly.

I agree. I’ve never said otherwise. However, the last time I heard the Confiteor was back in the mid-70s and even though I attend a reverent NO cathedral, the Creed is often ommitted.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for over 20 years. We went through our “Anglican” period for almost ten years (1984 through late 1993) when we were forbidden to sing anything in Latin.

It is just not the same on Holy Thursday to be able to chant Pange lingua as opposed to Sing my tongue. Or Good Friday - Vexilla regis as opposed to The Royal Banners or Easter Sunday - Christians to the Paschal Victim as opposed to Victimae Pachalae Laudes. We can go on and on about how wonderful music in the vernacular is and yet…and yet, there’s far too many of us who remember otherwise. Pardon me, but we’re not dead yet and shock above shock there are young people who agree with us!:bigyikes:

Do I want to go back to the TLM of my childhood? No. Do I want to see the hand waving, hand holding, anything goes in the liturgy continue? No. I am Catholic. My ancestors died for their faith. We have a profound and deep heritage. Forty years ago, it would have been inconceivable for most of us in the pews to rebel against HMC. But it is a very big myth that all of us were overjoyed back then. We weren’t.

I think that it is a terrible scandal that many of us have to “shop” to experience that which ought to be universal.

 

[tcraig]

When I hear folks like you say that they “felt Catholic” for the first time when attending the TLM, I cringe but I know in my heart what you are talking about.

I love the TLM. It’s what gave me my “identity” as a Catholic, and was the first truly beautiful and reverent mass that I ever attended. My husband and I currently live in Germany, and attend a TLM over here. We tried to integrate into our military NO parish, but the lack of beauty and reverence was killing us and slowly chipping away at our faith, bit by bit … so we went back to the TLM and have felt ourselves refreshed and renewed once again.

But I do realize that the NO can be beautiful and reverent. Since my first TLM I have also attended a few NO masses in Latin/English, complete with incense, chant, etc. With a reverent Latin/English NO, I can see what was *intended *by the changes in VII, and I think it’s good. I like the increased scripture readings, I like the ability to hear a lot of the mass in the vernacular.

But I think that so much more was lost; the good is overshadowed by the bad. Ugly churches, bad music, a lack of anything that says “God is really here, in this tabernacle”. There’s also no conformity in the NO. People argue that this expresses the “personality” of the parish, but should our Catholic liturgy really be that piecemeal? I had more conformity in my Methodist services from church to church than I’ve ever experienced at a NO mass.

Living overseas as I do, and having attended both TLM and NO masses in several countries, I also see how much of the universality of the mass has been lost. At a mass all in the vernacular, if you don’t speak the language you’re basically an observer. Yes, you will get the “flow” of the mass, so to speak, but you can’t really participate (and isn’t that what everyone keeps harping on about, that no one participated prior to VII? ). But at a TLM I am immediately at home. No matter the country, I walk in, see the familiar altar setting, and feel a sense of “coming home”. I open up my missal, hear the Asperges me, and enter into the familiarity of the mass. I have never gotten this from a NO mass.

I don’t really know what the answer is … My hope is that the NO will be “tightened up” so that there isn’t so much variation. I’d like to see it mandatory that instead of vernacular adaptations, a congregation should always sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei; I think this would help restore a little bit of the universal aspect of the mass. I’d like to hear better music and see more beauty. I’d really love to walk into a Catholic church that celebrates the NO mass and feel the same as I do when I attend a TLM, instead of worrying about how many abuses I’ll see and/or how bad the music will be.

Can it be done? Maybe … Sometimes I’m confident, sometimes not so sure. Until then, many of us keep “shopping” - and we usually end up with a TLM.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Abuses and the bad music are certainly key factors - but their roots are now 40 years deep. I have in front of me my wife’s St. Joseph Missal dated 1966. The text is in English and the Latin is at the bottom of the page. From my memory and as an altar boy, we didn’t really start using a lot of English until about 1967.

I. Abbreviated prayers at the foot of the altar.
II. Confiteor
III. Introit Antiphon
IV Kyrie
V. Gloria
VI. Prayer
VII. Epistle
VIII. Gradual and Allelluia
IX. Gospel
X. (“Sermon” or Homily")
XI. Creed (I believe not we believe).
XII. Prayers of the Faithful
XIII. Offertory prayers
XIV. The Orate Fratres
XV. Prayer over the Gifts (Secret)
XVI, Preface -(substantial difference from what we say today).
XVII. Sanctus (again - a substantial difference from what we say today)
XVIII What we would know as Eucharistic Prayer I - the Roman Canon (in English)
XIX - the minor Canon in English - answered in Latin.
XX - Pater Noster in Latin
XXI- Breaking of the Host
XXII- Agnus Dei
XXIII- Priest’s prayers before Communion followed by Communion of the Priest.
XXIV- Communion of the Faithful (Ecce Agnus Dei -x3)
XXV-Communion
XXVI - The Ablutions
XXVII - The Communion Antiphon
XXVIII- Prayer after Communion
XXVIV- The Dismissal and Blessing

No prayers after the Mass, no second Gospel etc.

Looking at that 1966 Missal, you can clearly see what V II intended. Latin for most parts of the Mass except for some prayers and the all important Eucharistic Prayer which was in English. By 1969 things had changed radically…Latin was a gone pecan as was the music.

I was in high school then. I freely admit that I did not like nor did I listen to the music of my generation or what happened to the Mass so very, very quickly - 1966 - 1968 (contrary to popular belief, the NO may have been formally promulgated in 1970 but it was in use by 1968.)

Forty years later, I can still hear my mother’s voice - we are Catholics, we do what HMC requires. We didn’t like what was going on but we had to accept it - and look what we’ve got.

 

[lak611]

Abuses and the bad music are certainly key factors - but their roots are now 40 years deep. I have in front of me my wife’s St. Joseph Missal dated 1966. The text is in English and the Latin is at the bottom of the page. From my memory and as an altar boy, we didn’t really start using a lot of English until about 1967.

I. Abbreviated prayers at the foot of the altar.
II. Confiteor
III. Introit Antiphon
IV Kyrie
V. Gloria
VI. Prayer
VII. Epistle
VIII. Gradual and Allelluia
IX. Gospel
X. (“Sermon” or Homily")
XI. Creed (I believe not we believe).
XII. Prayers of the Faithful
XIII. Offertory prayers
XIV. The Orate Fratres
XV. Prayer over the Gifts (Secret)
XVI, Preface -(substantial difference from what we say today).
XVII. Sanctus (again - a substantial difference from what we say today)
XVIII What we would know as Eucharistic Prayer I - the Roman Canon (in English)
XIX - the minor Canon in English - answered in Latin.
XX - Pater Noster in Latin
XXI- Breaking of the Host
XXII- Agnus Dei
XXIII- Priest’s prayers before Communion followed by Communion of the Priest.
XXIV- Communion of the Faithful (Ecce Agnus Dei -x3)
XXV-Communion
XXVI - The Ablutions
XXVII - The Communion Antiphon
XXVIII- Prayer after Communion
XXVIV- The Dismissal and Blessing

No prayers after the Mass, no second Gospel etc.

Looking at that 1966 Missal, you can clearly see what V II intended. Latin for most parts of the Mass except for some prayers and the all important Eucharistic Prayer which was in English. By 1969 things had changed radically…Latin was a gone pecan as was the music.

I was in high school then. I freely admit that I did not like nor did I listen to the music of my generation or what happened to the Mass so very, very quickly - 1966 - 1968 (contrary to popular belief, the NO may have been formally promulgated in 1970 but it was in use by 1968.)

Forty years later, I can still hear my mother’s voice - we are Catholics, we do what HMC requires. We didn’t like what was going on but we had to accept it - and look what we’ve got.

When my father died earlier this year, my mother and I were going through his things. I found that transitional missal. I was surprised at how different it was compared to the NO that I had grown up with. I decided to keep the transitional missal. My mother has a 1955 missal. I also have a reprint of the 1962 missal for use when I go to a TLM.