The Latest Public Statement of the SSPX

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Brother, I sometimes wonder if it is not a spillover from the secular world, at least, for American (as in United States) Catholics. We so readily now divide up in opposing camps, be they conservative, progressive, right wing, liberal, Tea Party, libertarian, just to name a few and then demonize anyone who holds different view from ours. I sense that sometimes it is done to gain a certain intellectual satisfaction or pleasure in vanquishing the opposition and sometimes for more devious motives. Secondly, thanks to the need for cable “news” to fill the air 24/7, talk radio, and especially the internet (case in point :)), everyone is now an expert with a firmly held view on practically everything, the facts be damned.

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Walter Cronkite could not have said it better. 👍

Do you think that we should reinstate the draft? Maybe, if we reinstate the draft, Americans will come to understand the meaning of these military terms that we like to throw around: Church Militant, Soldier for Christ, Christian Soldiers, Salvation Army, God’s Squad and all the other ones that American Christians use, yet so conveniently redefine.

In a real army you get shot for badmouthing a commanding officer. Soldiers know to keep their mouths shut, to follow orders and to accept whatever comes from above as part of life.

We run our mouths, refuse to follow orders unless they come with God’s initials, and we choose what we accept and what we don’t. How is that being a soldier? :confused:
 
For those who are so inclined, the below link is to a PDF that has a prayer for the canonization of archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

scribd.com/doc/33320603/Archbishop-Marcel-Lefebvre-Prayer-for-his-Canonization-English-and-German
I think you need a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur to promulgate a prayer like this. The ones that I’ve seen usually have some kind of approval from Church authorities.

This gets very hairy. I wouldn’t encourage that people say this prayer. I would encourage that people pray for the Archbishop. Basically, this prayer ignores the fact that the Archbishop died outside of the Church, because his excommunication is reserved to the Apostolic See alone. Neither Pope John Paul nor Pope Benedict lifted it.

It’s better to stay within the arms of Rome to be on the safeside.
 
As far as liturgy is concerned, my position is rather simple. If the Church allows it, I have no right to disapprove of it. I don’t have to use it, but I cannot disapprove of it. I have no jurisdiction to do so. This would apply to such things as CITH, female altar servers, EMHC, mass in the vernacular, modern church architecture (by the way, most modern architecture is ugly), and a detached altar.

Realistically, I look at myself in the mirror and I realize that I am no one. I’m insignificant. The pope and the Church at large does not know that I exist and does not care whether I exist, must less does it care about my opinion on any of this. My authority is limited to my domain. I have no right to express any opinion on anything that the Church allows. I just have to suck it up and go with it.
Thanks for this. You draw a lot of water on CAF, and it is nice to know this.
You say it and it comes out well, others say it and it ticks me off!
 
…a heavily edited mass in the vernacular, a wholesale loss of respect for the sacred, ‘no one goes to Hell’, the ordination of homosexuals, Communion without confession, the altar table …

Actually, I’m wrong.

All the above looks very like what happened in the UK after the Reformation. Apart from the altar girls. Took a while to make a woman a vicar but they got there in the end. The first generation of Protestants didn’t realise that they were no longer Catholics, I read. But their children and grandchildren were Catholic no more.

The SSPX, AFAIK, just want the sacraments in the older forms and unambiguous doctrine. At the time of the schismatic act (the ordination of their own bishops), it looked like the church in France had lost its mind. I haven’t read all of ‘Letter to Confused Catholics’ but I remember what Abp Lefevbre wrote about what he saw.

IMPORTANT: Anyone younger than 60 no has no idea of what and how people believed prior to 60’s. I mean fervent belief, a fear of Judgement and Hell, a knowledge of the Catechism, the TLM as part of everyday life and automatic respect for clergy. Also, given that disease and war would take family members quite easily, a real fear of death.
I’m sorry sir, but that’s bunk.

The SSPX has shown themselves grossly disobedient to even their own superiors, not to mention the church hierarchy and have set a scandalously terrible example for those who might actually love the traditions of the church. Even though I have developed a decent facility with Latin, and have been invited to local Tridentine Masses, I have resolved that I will never attend until such time as those who are involved change their attitude and cease their scandalous polemics and disobedience. I would never want anyone to see me at a Latin Mass and even remotely infer that I share the modern trads position and attitude because that would be bearing false witness by my actions.

The current vernacular liturgy is a direct translation from the Latin and it was in fact only needed in the U.S. because the previous one was rushed. The vernacular Masses in most other non-English countries never had that problem. I suggest that anyone who doesn’t understand invest in a copy of Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass and you’ll soon see that I’m right on this.

Futhermore, as a 60 year old Catholic who spent 12 years in Catholic schools and who is well familiar with the Latin Mass, I can tell you that all that piety and reverence was more often simple silence because most of us kids had no clue what was going on. Most of us were still learning English, so the Latin was a mystery to us all. We knew a hand full of responses, much the way the majority of n-Cs today know a handful of scriptures by chapter and verse that they use for their evangelism, and yet when they encounter me and other knowledgeable Catholics they are chagrined to find that we know our Bibles better than they do, as well as the whys and wherefores of our most holy faith.

People who try to paint the pre Vatican II church as a pillar of reverence and piety are talking through their hats. Catechesis in our schools, such as it was, was woefully boring and rote. Most of us were terribly ill prepared to face n-C evangelism or to even understand it. In fact, the pre Vatican II church did very little to help us even understand our own beliefs and practices. I am far better informed today than I ever was back then, and I did all that on my own…with post Vatican II sources like the current catechism and papal encyclicals like Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Inter Mirifica , and other Documents of the II Vatican Council
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Walter Cronkite could not have said it better. 👍

Do you think that we should reinstate the draft? Maybe, if we reinstate the draft, Americans will come to understand the meaning of these military terms that we like to throw around: Church Militant, Soldier for Christ, Christian Soldiers, Salvation Army, God’s Squad and all the other ones that American Christians use, yet so conveniently redefine.

In a real army you get shot for badmouthing a commanding officer. Soldiers know to keep their mouths shut, to follow orders and to accept whatever comes from above as part of life.

We run our mouths, refuse to follow orders unless they come with God’s initials, and we choose what we accept and what we don’t. How is that being a soldier? :confused:
Given the choice, I would rather that the draft not be reinstated and instead that we have to rely on your gentle thoughtful posts to understand these terms.

And I’m flattered to be linked with Walter Cronkite, “the most trusted man in America.” But back at you, I think his nightly sign-off phrase could well be used at the end of your posts, namely, “and that’s the way it is.” 😉
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I’m sorry sir, but that’s bunk.

The SSPX has shown themselves grossly disobedient to even their own superiors, not to mention the church hierarchy and have set a scandalously terrible example for those who might actually love the traditions of the church. Even though I have developed a decent facility with Latin, and have been invited to local Tridentine Masses, I have resolved that I will never attend until such time as those who are involved change their attitude and cease their scandalous polemics and disobedience. I would never want anyone to see me at a Latin Mass and even remotely infer that I share the modern trads position and attitude because that would be bearing false witness by my actions.

The current vernacular liturgy is a direct translation from the Latin and it was in fact only needed in the U.S. because the previous one was rushed. The vernacular Masses in most other non-English countries never had that problem. I suggest that anyone who doesn’t understand invest in a copy of Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass and you’ll soon see that I’m right on this.

Futhermore, as a 60 year old Catholic who spent 12 years in Catholic schools and who is well familiar with the Latin Mass, I can tell you that all that piety and reverence was more often simple silence because most of us kids had no clue what was going on. Most of us were still learning English, so the Latin was a mystery to us all. We knew a hand full of responses, much the way the majority of n-Cs today know a handful of scriptures by chapter and verse that they use for their evangelism, and yet when they encounter me and other knowledgeable Catholics they are chagrined to find that we know our Bibles better than they do, as well as the whys and wherefores of our most holy faith.

People who try to paint the pre Vatican II church as a pillar of reverence and piety are talking through their hats. Catechesis in our schools, such as it was, was woefully boring and rote. Most of us were terribly ill prepared to face n-C evangelism or to even understand it. In fact, the pre Vatican II church did very little to help us even understand our own beliefs and practices. I am far better informed today than I ever was back then, and I did all that on my own…with post Vatican II sources like the current catechism and papal encyclicals like Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Inter Mirifica , and other Documents of the II Vatican Council
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
It’s funny, really. What rule are we laity not obeying in going to the older form? That word is conststantly thrown at trditionalists on this forum, whereas a traditionalist who goes to the older mass and follows pre-V2 spiritual discipline is most decidedly an obedient Catholic.

Traditionalists are truculuent because the mainstream Church gives them cause. They are inoculated against crowdpleasing additions to Mass, because they don’t experience this normally. And thus they react when they see or hear about them.

And it’s not all about you or whether the old rite makes sense to you. It’s about offering a worthy sacrifice to God. Latin preserves the meaning and intent of the rite from local meddling. You’ve pointed out that the Holy Mass need a re-translation after decades of use in English speaking countries.

And yes, people were silent at mass. Thankfully. They learnt by rote? At least they learned! I wonder how many kids today could recite anything from the cathecism on demand?

People pre-V2 knew their religion well enough to know that they did not receive Communion while in a state of sin, for example. That confession was important. That divorce was wrong. That contraception was wrong. That God was Judgemental as well as Merciful. That they could easily go to Hell. Mainstream Catholics are now not well cathecised. The long communion lines and the very short confession lines attest to this. As does the size of their families. Unless they are electing to remain celibate for long periods.

The SSPX are a living rebuke to all of this. Their existence seems to have helped move our Popes to announce formally that the older form was not banned, as we had been led to believe. As mainstream churches continue to change the new rite, more serious Catholics will be drawn to the older form, if only to get away from the banalities (the latest I’ve seen: secular songs at mass and moving the candles to one side of the altar)
 
I sometimes have a little time between Morning Prayer and mass to check in on what’s happening in the world and I stop in here. Every morning I see the same thing, arguing. I don’t believe that any of this arguing is necessary or appreciated by most people. I would certainly discourage it. The Church is not a war zone with two, three or more armies clashing on a field. The Church is a people in route to its eternal destiny. Along this route there are many lanes, but the highway is wide enough to accommodate all of us, if we don’t push each other from side to side.

Instead of throwing mud at each other, because of our differences, we should (as much as I hate to use the expression) look for our common ground. Our common ground is always Christ, the Lord of time and history. He is not the Meshiah of the Mainstream Catholic, the Traditionalist or the SSPX, but the Meshiah of all peoples, including those who do not yet know that Catholic faith or who knowing about it are unable to comprehend what we Catholics are blessed to understand.

We spend too much time casting aspersions of this forum. To waste God’s time in this manner is as grave a sin as a hootenanny at a mainstream parish or a homily that trashes the Holy Father at a TLM mass. God has not given us the gift of time to waste on such ridiculous arguments. God has given us the gift of time so that we might give it back to him through prayer, worship, penance and works of charity. But while we’re here throwing stones at each other and defending disobedience that cannot be defended, we waste God’s time. It is not our time. We did not create time. God created time when he created the sun and the moon to rule the day and night. At some point, we will be held accountable for this waste of God’s time.

It does not please God one iota to see his people filled with hatred over those things that are holy. On the contrary, it displeases the Father very much, because it distorts the face of the Son. When a mainstream Catholic lashes out at a Traditionalist, he lashes out at Christ. But make no mistake about it. When the Traditionalist lashes out at the mainstream Catholic, it is still the same holy face. Whether we prays in Latin or in Swahili, it is Christ whom we attack when we attack our brothers and sisters. The language in which we pray does nothing for charity. Charity is found in the heart, not in the words. What makes a man holy is what he loves, not the word he uses.

At the same time, whether we promote a woman’s alleged right to choose to kill her unborn child or we defend a society’s violation of the most sacred trust given to a bishop, which is to consecrate priests for the Church under the authority of the Vicar of Christ, we are no different from each other. Both actions are equally destructive. The former destroys the life of the unborn child and his mother while the latter is an assault on the life of Christ’s Church.

I think it’s time that people from both sides of the aisle look at our leaders and say with one voice, “Please put a stop to the division. Put a stop to the anger and to the hatred. You are not helping us. Instead, you are killing us.” Very often, when leaders fail to love each other, to listen to each other, to accept each other, and to assume their rightful place in relation to each other, the body must provide assistance, not by becoming polarized, but by uniting in one voice that says, “We accept our differences as gifts of the Holy Spirit. We acknowledge that neither the left nor the right can handcuff the Holy Spirit. We accept that we must let the Spirit loose to do its work and we acknowledge that which we have in common. We ask that our leaders strengthen what we have in common and peacefully discuss the differences. But for the love of all that is good, please leave us out of this discussion. Because when you draw us in, all you ignite the flames of resentment and hurt that we carry within us. We want to smother those flames so that the gentle light of love, serenity, and interior silence can glow once more in our lives.”

Instead of barking at each other, it may be time to unite, not against the Holy See or the leadership of the SSPX, but to address both parties as one people and ask them to do what is necessary to heal our souls and then walk away, leave them alone to do their duty without our interference and our intrusion. The way that we’re carrying on right now is not helping the Holy See or the leadership of the SSPX. We’re only slowing down the healing process.
 
Well, this is a forum. There is a debate because there is a problem. Because there is a debate, it may seem that people are attacking each other personally. They may, indeed, actually attack each other personally, which is bad logic, unless they are holding themselves up as examplars.

Regardless, the problem remains.
 
Well, this is a forum. There is a debate because there is a problem. Because there is a debate, it may seem that people are attacking each other personally. They may, indeed, actually attack each other personally, which is bad logic, unless they are holding themselves up as examplars.

Regardless, the problem remains.
Do me a favor? Take a look at several threads and observe who it is that begins the attack. Go back even a few years. Nine out of ten times, trads initiate the provocation and harassment due to a false sense of being victimized, or anger towards those who choose to worship in another form where they do not approve of their lawful practices. It is never-ending. The problem is not with the two different forms of liturgy. The problem is in the heart of the one who feels obligated to convert the other to their more “superior” form, while casting stones at the other’s liturgy as being deficient.

There is a poster here who never misses a drumbeat to promote latin. Others are not so obvious, but attack the very things as you did in this post. Who initiated the conflict? Why can’t trads who are on a different side of the fence just leave it be? Perhaps they feel an unrest that urges them to consistently vent their anger in this forum. I rest my case.
 
The current vernacular liturgy is a direct translation from the Latin and it was in fact only needed in the U.S. because the previous one was rushed. The vernacular Masses in most other non-English countries never had that problem.
The previous one would have had some serious copyright infringement issues had the old handmissal translations been used. Many of these copyrights have expired but new ones have come along. There are still royalty charges, I believe, and it involves all the music as well. As far as the non-English countries go, some of them used translations based on the old ICEL translation, to further corrupt the meanings. Much of this can’t easily be undone. I would stop short of saying the current vernacular liturgy is a direct translation of the Latin as many first-year or second-year Latin students would never translate to what we have today. There is more to the Mass than “consubstantial.”

Then add all the parish disunity on top of all these translation wars.

What works well on paper and in the abstract doesn’t mean it will work well in real life. Mass into hundreds of vernaculars and hundreds of thousands of possible translations discussed have shown to be quite costly.
 


There is a poster here who never misses a drumbeat to promote latin. Others are not so obvious, but attack the very things as you did in this post. Who initiated the conflict? Why can’t trads who are on a different side of the fence just leave it be? Perhaps they feel an unrest that urges them to consistently vent their anger in this forum. I rest my case.
It’s good to promote Latin. It’s peculiar to denigrate it in a traditional forum. Or at all.

I looked at my post. I don’t see a problem. When you list the things that perturb traditionalists about mainstream Catholicism, it reads like a checklist for a protestant sect. That is a problem.

As rebuttal, one can quote things like “The gates of Hell …” and the “infallibility of xyz”. These don’t mean large sections of the church cannot go wrong. The Church of Christ goes on. Will Mr A, B or C be in it? Only if they do and believe certain things. The things we’ve always and everywhere believed and done.

Then, you have more controversy when some say you must accept this, that or t’other novelty or antiquarianism, otherwise you’re disobedient. When you actually look for logical, doctrinal or traditional support, you realise it’s gossamer-light. Especially if you go back to the source e.g. the reasons for versus-populum, CITH, the all-vernacular mass.

Another thing: it’s hard to be objective about your society. You are in it. It forms how you see the world. When you gets deeper into traditionalism and then come into contact again with the mainstream Church, one feels like a foreigner looking local customs. The natives haven’t really examined why they are doing what they’re doing e.g. a nice sentimental song at the funeral of a loved one? A reading by a small girl? No mention of Purgatory so as not to upet the bereaved (do we even believe in that any more?) How nice. We all feel better. How about the deceased? We assume he’s saved. Just like protestants. You do as you believe.
 
I’m sorry sir, but that’s bunk.

The SSPX has shown themselves grossly disobedient to even their own superiors, not to mention the church hierarchy and have set a scandalously terrible example for those who might actually love the traditions of the church. Even though I have developed a decent facility with Latin, and have been invited to local Tridentine Masses, I have resolved that I will never attend until such time as those who are involved change their attitude and cease their scandalous polemics and disobedience. I would never want anyone to see me at a Latin Mass and even remotely infer that I share the modern trads position and attitude because that would be bearing false witness by my actions.

The current vernacular liturgy is a direct translation from the Latin and it was in fact only needed in the U.S. because the previous one was rushed. The vernacular Masses in most other non-English countries never had that problem. I suggest that anyone who doesn’t understand invest in a copy of Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass and you’ll soon see that I’m right on this.

Futhermore, as a 60 year old Catholic who spent 12 years in Catholic schools and who is well familiar with the Latin Mass, I can tell you that all that piety and reverence was more often simple silence because most of us kids had no clue what was going on. Most of us were still learning English, so the Latin was a mystery to us all. We knew a hand full of responses, much the way the majority of n-Cs today know a handful of scriptures by chapter and verse that they use for their evangelism, and yet when they encounter me and other knowledgeable Catholics they are chagrined to find that we know our Bibles better than they do, as well as the whys and wherefores of our most holy faith.

People who try to paint the pre Vatican II church as a pillar of reverence and piety are talking through their hats. Catechesis in our schools, such as it was, was woefully boring and rote. Most of us were terribly ill prepared to face n-C evangelism or to even understand it. In fact, the pre Vatican II church did very little to help us even understand our own beliefs and practices. I am far better informed today than I ever was back then, and I did all that on my own…with post Vatican II sources like the current catechism and papal encyclicals like Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Inter Mirifica , and other Documents of the II Vatican Council
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
What does n-C stand for?
 
Futhermore, as a 60 year old Catholic who spent 12 years in Catholic schools and who is well familiar with the Latin Mass, I can tell you that all that piety and reverence was more often simple silence because most of us kids had no clue what was going on.
But they, even the Catholics who couldn’t afford private schools, went to Mass Sunday after Sunday.
 
Reading through this and similar posts the one thing I pick up which pro and anti SSPXers never cover is the nature of the obedience required of a Traditionalist (in the general sense of the word).

What exactly does Rome require? Fundamentally it boils down to three things:
  1. An acceptance of Vatican II interpreted, for any problematic passages, in the light of the constant teaching of the Church;
  2. An acceptance of the OF Mass as officially promulgated and printed in the missal;
  3. An acceptance of current acts of the Magisterium, the nature of which acceptance depends upon the nature of those acts.
With 1. the topic has already been thrashed out: Vat II is an Ecumenical Council and parts of its texts are of the Magisterium and require absolutely the assent of the faithful. Reconciling disputed passages with Catholic Tradition has already been done elsewhere. What I have seen from the Traditional side is a blanket condemnation of Vat II rather than a willingness to look at the actual texts themselves and see if they are really as bad as all that. If certain passages need further subsequent clarifications from the Church it will not be the first time. ‘Outside the Church no salvation’ required quite a bit of explanation.

Nobody is actually making a fuss over 3, at least not to the extent that it precludes a settlement.

The real problem is 2, accepting the OF Mass. To my knowledge, no-one has yet pointed out that the OF Mass, as celebrated in many, if not most, parishes in the world, is not the same thing as the Mass as printed in the missal. It is possible to celebrate an OF Mass in a way that for a casual onlooker would be virtually indistinguishable from an EF Mass. Concomitance is everything. From the beginning the OF Mass was accompanied with liturgical abuses not mandated by the Church and so, in the minds of Traditionalists, it is indissolubly linked with them. But this need not be the case. A bit of context might help.

Over the last two centuries (which isn’t actually that long a time) western society has been steadily secularised, which means that a rejection of religion’s right to intervene in public sphere when its own interests are threatened, has been followed by a dismantling of the moral and social order built up by religion.

Up until about 50 years ago the Church was successful in keeping the secular spirit out of its own structures, largely through a strong and centralised papacy that watched closely for any signs of infiltration. A good example is St Pius X’s reaction to Modernism as expressed in Pascendi.

I think, however, that is was only a matter of time before the doors were broken down. Up until fairly recently the secular world preserved enough of the old Christian character to foster the idea that peace could be made with it. The violent persecutions of the Revolution were a thing of the past. There was an accommodation between the secular state and the Church, notably in the US. It seemed that both sides could shake hands and live in peace. This I think lay behind the optimism of Vatican II.

The problem though is that the driving force behind secularism remained untouched. A rejection of the principle that religion should mould the moral framework of society meant that the Christian character of that society was running on borrowed steam: sooner or later the steam would have to give out. The necessity a religious man has of accepting current unchristian laws disposes him to accept further unchristian laws in the future. It is an unstoppable process.

In the meantime, though, the secular spirit got into the Church, what Pope Paul VI called the ‘smoke of Satan’ and Lucy of Fatima called a ‘diabolical disorientation’. The tension between a Church and a world that cohabited without seeing eye to eye was finally past. Catholics grew up in a secular world. They absorbed the secular media, were part of secular institutions. Now they could finally have a secular mindset and still call themselves Catholic. This remains the state of the typical contemporary churchgoer today.

This flooding of Church happened on the occasion of Vatican II. It was not directly mandated by the Council, however the misguided euphoria on the occasion of the Council had a lot to do with it. The OF Mass was caught up in this movement and received a stamp that the Church herself did not give it.

The party, however, is nearly over. The secular world has forged ahead, breaking down one after the other of the Christian moral pillars that uphold western society. It is now reaching the point where it is becoming impossible to pretend that an accommodation is possible any longer. The Church inevitably must be sidelined from society and acquire the stigma of a sect. Catholics will be obliged to choose between being socially acceptable seculars or being Catholic. It will no longer be possible to be both. When that happens the driving force behind the secular spirit within the Church will collapse. A Church once again in radical opposition to the world will feel no need to have the world’s spirit within its ranks. Solid doctrine and supernatural liturgies will become the norm again.
 
Whilst on the subject, a couple of other observations:
  1. The Church can take time dealing with abuses. I don’t think anybody argues that there are OF Masses celebrated in a fashion that makes a supernatural participation psychologically impossible. Why haven’t these been scotched? The answer is that things can run on for decades before they are finally sorted out. St Pius V abrogated all forms of liturgy that were more than two centuries old, obliging a universal conformity with his missal. The implication of this act is that there were forms of the liturgy that deserved to be abrogated and yet had been going on for quite some time.
  2. The strength of the Traditionalist movement, including the SSPX, is not so much an adherence to a rite, but a rejection of the secular spirit. When Cardinal Gagnon toured the SSPX in Europe during his canonical visit in 1987, he remarked on his surprise in finding 'toute une chretiente" - ‘a whole little christendom’ (I need to verify this quote). This rejection of the secular spirit is combined with a desire to live an integral Catholic life. This is, in fact, what every Catholic will have to do, sooner or later. The problem in Traditional circles is that this rejection goes hand in hand with a rejection of a Church deemed to be shot through and through with secularism.
 
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QuestingKnight:
I looked at my post. I don’t see a problem. When you list the things that perturb traditionalists about mainstream Catholicism, it reads like a checklist for a protestant sect. That is a problem.
Let’s assume for a moment that the mainstream Church IS a checklist for a protestant sect. Does that give you or anyone the right to publicly denounce it? Is your charity so flawed that you would lash out at a Protestant just because you disagree with the way he was raised in his faith? Jesus never condoned that, as we see in many of his parables. Do you believe you are exempt from demonstrating kindness to draw them into the faith? When does insult, condemnation, belittling ever become justified?
As rebuttal, one can quote things like “The gates of Hell …” and the “infallibility of xyz”. These don’t mean large sections of the church cannot go wrong.
Do you believe this - honestly? That the Church can go wrong when She teaches the faithful? Who’s the Protestant here.
 
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