The Latest Public Statement of the SSPX

[JReducation]

I thought so, too, but if you look through this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=774010

You’ll see a lot of confusion…

Did we ever get a straight answer?

I tried to answer it, but I think my response got lost in the paperwork. Many people in the know have said that SP was a confirmation that the TLM is indeed permitted. Such a confirmation was needed for the benefit of those who believed that it was banned and were reacting according to their mistaken belief. Leading this belief was the SSPX. The Holy Father went one step further. He mentions the indult by Bl. John Paul and then he annuls it by saying that any secular priest who belongs to a diocese can celebrate it in public or in private and does not need permission. Any regular priest can celebrate it in private without permission and if his superior allows it, he can do so in public or in community. There was nothing more that could be said by the SSPX or by those who wanted to suppress the TLM. The Holy Father’s statement was very clear. It is not abrogated and it remains the Extraordinary Form until a pope abrogates it, which is highly unlikely. Popes only abrogate things that do damage to the Universal Church and even then, they do so when there is no other option. Popes are generally very patient men.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I tried to answer it, but I think my response got lost in the paperwork. Many people in the know have said that SP was a confirmation that the TLM is indeed permitted. Such a confirmation was needed for the benefit of those who believed that it was banned and were reacting according to their mistaken belief. Leading this belief was the SSPX. The Holy Father went one step further. He mentions the indult by Bl. John Paul and then he annuls it by saying that any secular priest who belongs to a diocese can celebrate it in public or in private and does not need permission. Any regular priest can celebrate it in private without permission and if his superior allows it, he can do so in public or in community. There was nothing more that could be said by the SSPX or by those who wanted to suppress the TLM. The Holy Father’s statement was very clear. It is not abrogated and it remains the Extraordinary Form until a pope abrogates it, which is highly unlikely. Popes only abrogate things that do damage to the Universal Church and even then, they do so when there is no other option. Popes are generally very patient men.

Indeed they are.

I’m always hoping for a 5-reply thread with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Never happens

 

[JReducation]

Indeed they are.

I’m always hoping for a 5-reply thread with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Never happens

LOL

I’m the wrong person to ask. I’ve been an educator and public speaker for so long that I can’t respond without giving an explanation.

One day I wrote a response to a question posed by one of my daughter’s friends. The young woman became very upset and reported me to my daughter. My daughter began to laugh as she said to her friend, “That’s how my father speaks even at dinner. He walks around with a whiteboard and a marker. We’ve been trying to take him out of the classroom for years.”

What can I say? Old habits die hard or maybe, people die before their habits do. I don’t know.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

LOL

I’m the wrong person to ask. I’ve been an educator and public speaker for so long that I can’t respond without giving an explanation.

One day I wrote a response to a question posed by one of my daughter’s friends. The young woman became very upset and reported me to my daughter. My daughter began to laugh as she said to her friend, “That’s how my father speaks even at dinner. He walks around with a whiteboard and a marker. We’ve been trying to take him out of the classroom for years.”

What can I say? Old habits die hard or maybe, people die before their habits do. I don’t know.

One thing I have learned to tame is my ‘engineer persona’ at home. You know…fixing every problem whether I’m asked to or not, giving logical insight to any comment, that sort of thing…

I re-read that old thread a little. Thanks.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If the SSPX was given an ultimatum with a time limit to enter into an ordinariate within the Catholic Church or be excommunicated–how many would come back?

Anybody want to speculate to the percentages of priests and laity that would come back to the church if offered an ultimatum to come back or be excommunicated?

It seems to me that with time their priests and bishops will die off and if they want to keep functioning they would have to ordain somebody which would mean multiple excommunications.

Is the Catholic Church just going to WAIT them out–join me now or be excommunicated later?

I do think that the ordinariate is the best deal they’ll ever get–they’ll be able to do like they do now–what’s so HARD about it?

 

[Lormar]

Post deleted.

 

[Mike30]

There isn’t hatred towards the SSPX on here. All there is on here are a fair few people who disapprove strongly of the blatant disobedience of the SSPX towards 2 of our Popes, the contempt that they seem to display for all our post-V2 Popes, and their contempt towards the faithful Catholic laity who prefer the OF form of the Mass (i.e. the vast majority of Catholics).

And I don’t see how they started off well and got pushed by anyone. As a Catholic Bishop, choosing to write a declaration attacking the Vatican 2 Council, which resulted in the SSPX losing its status within the Church was Lefebvre’s fault, nobody pushed him to do that. Ordaining priests in direct contravention of Pope Paul VI’ s orders was Lefebvre’s fault, which resulted in his suspension for a year and the supension of the priests he ordained, nobody pushed him to do that. Then blatantly disobeying the direct orders of Pope John Paul II in consecrating 4 bishops (despite a personal plea from Pope JPII urging him not to do so) resulting in his excommunication and the excommunication of the bishops he consecrated. Disobeying the direct order of a Pope and effectively leading the SSPX away from the authority of Rome, was Lefebvre’s doing, nobody pushed him to do it.

The SSPX, under Lefebvre’s leadership, were not pushed out. He committed a schismatic act and effectively took his organisation outside of the Catholic Church. Fair play to those within his organisation that realised what he had done, saw sense and formed the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter.

Rome had no real choice but to deal with Lefebvre and the SSPX other than how they did, and it was Lefebvre (and the bishops he consecrated), not Rome, who excommunicated themselves through their actions. An act of schism results in a de facto excommunication.

If the priests of the SSPX sincerely want to return to full union with the Catholic Church all they need to do is pick up the phone and contact the Catholic bishop in their area. They will be welcomed back with open arms. And if they want to continue saying EF Mass, there are opportunities within the Catholic Church for them to continue doing that. But what will never happen is that the Church will enter into some sort of negotiation over the Faith (including any aspect of Vatican II) with any organisation just to caox them back into the Church.

Edited by moderator

The events that I am concerned with took place well before any ordinations or consecrations occurred and in fact may have directly led to them.

In the end result it really doesn’t matter much. Those that hate the Society will continue to do so. Those who support it will continue to do so, and the real reasons for the Societys existance in the first place and what actually led to their self imposed exile will remain hidden from the view of both as it requires too much effort, apparently, to dig around through the archives and determine exactly what happened.

As I said, I do not support them but do not revile them either. I only look for the truth, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

 

[otjm]

If the SSPX was given an ultimatum with a time limit to enter into an ordinariate within the Catholic Church or be excommunicated–how many would come back?

Anybody want to speculate to the percentages of priests and laity that would come back to the church if offered an ultimatum to come back or be excommunicated?

It seems to me that with time their priests and bishops will die off and if they want to keep functioning they would have to ordain somebody which would mean multiple excommunications.

Is the Catholic Church just going to WAIT them out–join me now or be excommunicated later?

I do think that the ordinariate is the best deal they’ll ever get–they’ll be able to do like they do now–what’s so HARD about it?

As to your last question, they will not accept the Church’s position that the documents of Vatican 2 are consonant with prior doctrine. They also will not accept obedience to the Pope, in that he requires they acknowledge this.

As to at least part of their initial struggles, they seem as a group not to be able to distinguish cause and effect; they have the effect down correctly (there has been some serious straying from Catholic principles and teaching in the last 40 years or so) but the insist that it is due to the way the documents are written. The Church holds otherwise. They have insisted that they are not bound in law to follow the Pope’s legitimate orders (such as the order to not ordain men, and the subsequent order to not ordain bishops), relying on what they say is an emergency in the Church which would provide them permission when the Pope will not; and the supreme law giver in the Church has said that such an emergency does not exist and that they cannot rely on such a principle.

Ad that is a thumbnail sketch of why it is so hard. The corner they have backed into is of their own making; they have been asked to come out of the corner and provided the means, but they insist their corner is the reality of the Church.

In short, they have set themselves up as an alternate Magisterium.

You are correct that some of their priests and bishops will die off. And that is likely, unless they have a change of position, to elicit more ordinations of bishops. So far, they have not followed Rome’s directives that they not ordain any more priests until they reunite. That does not bode well for whether or not they may ordain more bishops.

Hopefully it will not come to that.

 

[Tomdstone]

If the priests of the SSPX sincerely want to return to full union with the Catholic Church all they need to do is pick up the phone and contact the Catholic bishop in their area. They will be welcomed back with open arms.

I’m pretty sure that this is not true. A local bishop would not give the SSPX faculties without first getting the OK from Rome.

 

[Dee_S]

Edited by moderator

The events that I am concerned with took place well before any ordinations or consecrations occurred and in fact may have directly led to them.

In the end result it really doesn’t matter much. Those that hate the Society will continue to do so. Those who support it will continue to do so, and the real reasons for the Societys existance in the first place and what actually led to their self imposed exile will remain hidden from the view of both as it requires too much effort, apparently, to dig around through the archives and determine exactly what happened.

As I said, I do not support them but do not revile them either. I only look for the truth, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

I really did like your earlier post Mike, it did appear to present a balanced look at the situation in general - but I had overlooked your statement about some people “hating” the SSPX here - I won’t comment now, as that was sufficiently refuted by Br JR and others.

I’m curious as to what leads you to such a strong conclusion, even to repeating it here in this post?

The overwhelming ‘evidence’ that the SSPX does not have the due respect for any Pope that has reigned during their existence (Pope Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI & now Pope Francis), nor have they submitted in obedience to his authority nor his entreaties - is sufficient for even a lay person to make up their minds on the issue.

Their “exile” was and still remains “self imposed” - but as we concluded earlier too - their laity has decisions to make…
…to stay or to come homeUbi Petrus, Ubi Ecclesia
there is no guarantee of salvation outside of the Church founded by Christ

The real question to ask themselves is - why do they believe the false claimsof an organization who stubbornly rejects full communion and authority of the Pope.

Who are “the wolves in sheep’s clothing”?

 

[JReducation]

If the priests of the SSPX sincerely want to return to full union with the Catholic Church all they need to do is pick up the phone and contact the Catholic bishop in their area. They will be welcomed back with open arms.

I’m pretty sure that this is not true. A local bishop would not give the SSPX faculties without first getting the OK from Rome.

There are two parts here.

First: the local bishop has a moral obligation to receive any Catholic who comes to him requesting “asylum” for lack of a better word, especially a priest. In other words, he can’t send him away. He must give him some direction. It’s going to be different for each situation, so I won’t even attempt to guess what it would be in the case of an SSPX priest gone AWOL.

Second: a priest who leaves his institute, regardless of what that may be, has to go through the process of incardination. It’s not just a matter of getting faculties. You can’t get faculties without being incardinated into a diocese or another institute that is in good standing with Rome such as a religious community or another society of apostolic life.

Having said this, I don’t know if the process for incardinating a priest who comes from the SSPX is different from that of a priest who comes from a religious community or from the Orthodox. In those cases, the local bishop receives them and puts them through the paces. The Holy See has nothing to do with it. An Orthodox priest or a regular priest is not a suspended priest. This is the glitch that I don’t know how it would be handled. My guess is that if one is suspended and the suspension is reserved to the pope, then the bishop cannot incardinate until Rome responds. Obviously, Rome is going to respond favorably.

 

[Dee_S]

I’m pretty sure that this is not true. A local bishop would not give the SSPX faculties without first getting the OK from Rome.

Actually this does happen on an ongoing basis.

Whenever their priests have wished to return (the SSPX call it “defected” , “thought there was no more Iron Curtain?”), they mostly make personal contact with a parish priest who they can talk with, before making the formal step towards the local bishop. And I believe they are dealt with very kindly, never rapproached, and welcomed back with open arms!:grouphug:

 

[Dee_S]

Dee, you are right, and you put it better than I would have. I wanted to write those things, and I did have a post all typed up, but decided not to post it.

As for the “intense paranoia”, I still have it and wonder if I will always have it. There is a friend that I have that writes Catholic books. I look at her and envy her and remember when I used to be like her, and I wonder if I will have that complete trust again.

And as for Bishop Fellay, I believe he would have come back into the Church. What it precisely was that stopped him, only he knows for certain.

:flowers:
*These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world.*John 16:33
Duoay-Rheims Bible

 

[Tomdstone]

There are two parts here.

First: the local bishop has a moral obligation to receive any Catholic who comes to him requesting “asylum” for lack of a better word, especially a priest. In other words, he can’t send him away. He must give him some direction. It’s going to be different for each situation, so I won’t even attempt to guess what it would be in the case of an SSPX priest gone AWOL.

Second: a priest who leaves his institute, regardless of what that may be, has to go through the process of incardination. It’s not just a matter of getting faculties. You can’t get faculties without being incardinated into a diocese or another institute that is in good standing with Rome such as a religious community or another society of apostolic life.

Having said this, I don’t know if the process for incardinating a priest who comes from the SSPX is different from that of a priest who comes from a religious community or from the Orthodox. In those cases, the local bishop receives them and puts them through the paces. The Holy See has nothing to do with it. An Orthodox priest or a regular priest is not a suspended priest. This is the glitch that I don’t know how it would be handled. My guess is that if one is suspended and the suspension is reserved to the pope, then the bishop cannot incardinate until Rome responds. Obviously, Rome is going to respond favorably.

I am referring to a situation where a priest wants to remain in the SSPX, and he asks the local Catholic bishop for faculties to hear confessions, say Mass, etc., while at the same time remaining an active priest in the SSPX under the present circumstances where the SSPX is not in a regular situation as far as Rome is concerned. Do you say that in such a case, the local bishop can give faculties to the SSPX priest, while he remains active in the SSPX? My opinion as given above was that I doubt that this could be done by a local bishop (as long as the SSPX situation is not regularised) without an approval from Rome.
Would that opinion be correct or on the contrary, can any local bishop give faculties to an SSPX priest who actively adheres to the SSPX and maintains his membership in the SSPX?

 

[Tomdstone]

Actually this does happen on an ongoing basis.

Whenever their priests have wished to return (the SSPX call it “defected” , “thought there was no more Iron Curtain?”), they mostly make personal contact with a parish priest who they can talk with, before making the formal step towards the local bishop. And I believe they are dealt with very kindly, never rapproached, and welcomed back with open arms!:grouphug:

I am talking about the case where the SSPX priest maintains his membership in the SSPX but asks for faculties from the local bishop.

 

[Dee_S]

I am talking about the case where the SSPX priest maintains his membership in the SSPX but asks for faculties from the local bishop.

It would be referred to the Ecclesia Dei Commission. It is not within the powers of the local bishop to act in these matters.

“2. In fidelity to this mandate, subsequent to the act of 30 June 1988 with which Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre illicitly conferred episcopal ordination upon four priests, on 2 July 1988 Pope John Paul II of venerable memory established the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei:“whose task it will be to collaborate with the Bishops, with the Departments of the Roman Curia and with the circles concerned, for the purpose of facilitating the full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, religious communities or individual religious until now linked in various ways to the Society founded by Archbishop Lefebvre, who may wish to remain united to the Successor of Peter in the Catholic Church, while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions, in the light of the Protocol signed on 5 May last by Cardinal Ratzinger and Archbishop Lefebvre” (John Paul II, Litterae Apostolicae Motu Proprio datae *Ecclesia Dei *[2 July 1988], n. 6: AAS80 [1988], 1498).”

APOSTOLIC LETTER "MOTU PROPRIO"
ECCLESIAE UNITATEM
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI
CONCERNING THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION ECCLESIA DEI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20090702_ecclesiae-unitatem_en.html

 

[JReducation]

I am referring to a situation where a priest wants to remain in the SSPX, and he asks the local Catholic bishop for faculties to hear confessions, say Mass, etc., while at the same time remaining an active priest in the SSPX under the present circumstances where the SSPX is not in a regular situation as far as Rome is concerned. Do you say that in such a case, the local bishop can give faculties to the SSPX priest, while he remains active in the SSPX? My opinion as given above was that I doubt that this could be done by a local bishop (as long as the SSPX situation is not regularised) without an approval from Rome.
Would that opinion be correct or on the contrary, can any local bishop give faculties to an SSPX priest who actively adheres to the SSPX and maintains his membership in the SSPX?

There are only two authorities who can grant faculties.

a) The diocesan bishop (not his auxiliary, unless he has permission to do so) grants faculties for preaching, hearing confession and absolving (don’t forget the Sacrament of the sick includes absolution), and witnessing marriages.

b) A male religious superior can grant faculties to hear confession and to absolve to any priest entering his house provided that the penitent is a religious under his jurisdiction or a layman who lives in the house. The religious superior has the same authority as the bishop, but it’s limited to his community, not diocesan wide.

Having said this, neither a bishop, nor a religious superior can grant faculties to a priest who has been suspended by law. This is where things get hairy.

A priest may be suspended by the local diocesan bishop. He can’t function in that diocese. However, he can cross the border into the next diocese and the other bishop can grant him faculties there.

If a priest loses his faculties because he has violated canon law, the loss of faculties carries through the entire universal Church. No one can grant him faculties. Obviously, the Church supplies in certain extraordinary circumstances; but we won’t go there right now.

In the case of the SSPX priests, as long as they remain attached to the SSPX, they remain suspended by law, not by the bishop of one diocese. Therefore, it is only Rome that can grant faculties. Here is where Ecclesia Dei enters the picture.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’m pretty sure that this is not true. A local bishop would not give the SSPX faculties without first getting the OK from Rome.

I’m not talking about a local bishop giving the SSPX faculties, I’m talking about a priest within the SSPX wanting to come back to full Communion with Rome. All the individual priest has to do is to come back (i.e. leave the SSPX.and come back home). I’m sure any local bishop would be delighted to welcome a priest from the SSPX back into the fold and enable that priest to start the process of leading to him fully practicing as a priest within the Roman Catholic Church again.

Clearly they could not do this and still remain within the SSPX, but as individuals they have a free will, they are not compelled to stay within the schismatic SSPX.

 

[Dee_S]

… All the individual priest has to do is to come back (i.e. leave the SSPX.and come back home). I’m sure any local bishop would be delighted to welcome a priest from the SSPX back into the fold and enable that priest to start the process of leading to him fully practicing as a priest within the Roman Catholic Church again.

The letter of Archbishop Di Noia was sent to all the priests of the SSPX with the permission of Bishop Fellay. It was not official, but it made a personal appeal.

"Vatican City, Jan 24, 2013 / 02:01 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Archbishop Augustine Di Noia, one of the Roman officials involved in discussions with the Society of St. Pius X, wrote a letter to the society’s priests, seeking “reconciliation and healing.”

"He pleaded that his readers pray that God heal any “desire for an autonomy that is in fact outside the traditional forms of governance of the Church.”

"Archbishop Di Noia reminded them that “the only imaginable future for the Priestly Fraternity lies along the path of full communion with the Holy See, with the acceptance of an unqualified profession of the faith in its fullness, and thus with a properly ordered ecclesial, sacramental and pastoral life.”
catholicnewsagency.com/news/in-letter-to-sspx-vatican-archbishop-appeals-for-unity/

 

[Tomdstone]

I’m not talking about a local bishop giving the SSPX faculties, I’m talking about a priest within the SSPX wanting to come back to full Communion with Rome. All the individual priest has to do is to come back (i.e. leave the SSPX.and come back home). I’m sure any local bishop would be delighted to welcome a priest from the SSPX back into the fold and enable that priest to start the process of leading to him fully practicing as a priest within the Roman Catholic Church again.

Clearly they could not do this and still remain within the SSPX, but as individuals they have a free will, they are not compelled to stay within the schismatic SSPX.

In that case, yes, if they break off from SSPX, the local bishop would welcome him. However, if an SSPX priest asked for faculties, while still remaining in the SSPX, I doubt that the local bishop would oblige.