The Latin Mass "Not many parishes – ALL parishes" - England and Wales

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

It must be noted that the Cardinal was speaking to a Latin Mass Assoc congregation, so naturally his remarks are geared toward that audience.

It is quite obvious that Benedict does want more of the old rite preserved, and also more latin in the NO.

In Rome, there are so many priests, there is no problem carrying out all instructions, but where there are so many fewer priests, this may not be followed as well as hoped.

I doubt a pastor will replace a well attended NO Mass with a sparcely attended Latin Mass. This is a matter of finance, as well as meeting the needs of the parish.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Hi,

We have had Latin Masses, in my area, but I never felt it was considered a “dirty little secret”. There wasn’t much call for it.
Lux

You’re lucky. In my many years of living in various parts of the US (retired Marine Corps), I’ve found that the minority of diocese that did allow the TLM, it was more often than not offered only in some parish far off the beaten path, and only offered at exceedingly inconvenient times.

You also stated -

It must be noted that the Cardinal was speaking to a Latin Mass Assoc congregation, so naturally his remarks are geared toward that audience.

Well, of course he was physically speaking at a gathering of the LMA. But there is little doubt that he was also speaking directly to the Bishops of England and Wales.

and

I doubt a pastor will replace a well attended NO Mass with a sparcely attended Latin Mass. This is a matter of finance, as well as meeting the needs of the parish.

Actually, the pastor will do what The Holy Father tells him to do… period, finanial considerations be damned. The only “needs of the parish” that really count is the salvation of souls.

And as we both know, between The Holy Father, Cardinal Castrillon, Cardinal Arinze, Archbishop Ranjith, etc, there have been many a statement pointing out that a watered-down liturgy is and has lead to a watered-down Faith.

Catholics need to be re-introduced to what it means to be Catholic. If the TLM is that catalyst… that works for me. In my personal opinion, the Mass of Paul VI has been a dismal failure at not only evangelizing non-Catholics, but strengthening current Catholics.

With that said, I honestly do appriciate your thought provoking posts, Lux. Thanks!

 

[CathCentrist]

Having the mass in a another language is gonna exclude those who dont speak that language. Stupid to undo VatII

 

[Nohome]

Having the mass in a another language is gonna exclude those who dont speak that language. Stupid to undo VatII

Not really, I’ve attended the NO Mass in French, German, Spanish, Japanese, and Hawaiian. I wasn’t excluded. I knew what was going on.

Nohome

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

You also stated -

Well, of course he was physically speaking at a gathering of the LMA. But there is little doubt that he was also speaking directly to the Bishops of England and Wales.

Yes, but still slanted toward an agenda.

and

Actually, the pastor will do what The Holy Father tells him to do… period, finanial considerations be damned. The only “needs of the parish” that really count is the salvation of souls.

If the parish must close, there will be no Mass, TM or NO. Finances (contributions) is always a BIG consideration in any decision. Also the Holy Father has not given any direct instruction, but even if he does, many pastors are either unwilling or unable to accommodate this request. The purification of chalices was instructed, but still is not implimented in many Parishes. I do not think this instruction was promulgated by the USCCB, but I am not sure.

And as we both know, between The Holy Father, Cardinal Castrillon, Cardinal Arinze, Archbishop Ranjith, etc, there have been many a statement pointing out that a watered-down liturgy is and has lead to a watered-down Faith.

You consider NO watered down? I know many who disagree. Many feel the stronger participation is far more inspiring than an “audience only” Mass.

Catholics need to be re-introduced to what it means to be Catholic. If the TLM is that catalyst… that works for me. In my personal opinion, the Mass of Paul VI has been a dismal failure at not only evangelizing non-Catholics, but strengthening current Catholics.

Again I disagree. Certainly you must have had bad experiences, but haven’t you ever attended an NO Mass which you felt was up to your standards? I could never attend the Easter Vigil in Latin, but I love the current celebration.

With that said, I honestly do appriciate your thought provoking posts, Lux. Thanks!

And I, yours–thank you!

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Yes, but still slanted toward an agenda.

and

If the parish must close, there will be no Mass, TM or NO. Finances (contributions) is always a BIG consideration in any decision. Also the Holy Father has not given any direct instruction, but even if he does, many pastors are either unwilling or unable to accommodate this request. The purification of chalices was instructed, but still is not implimented in many Parishes. I do not think this instruction was promulgated by the USCCB, but I am not sure.

You consider NO watered down? I know many who disagree. Many feel the stronger participation is far more inspiring than an “audience only” Mass.

Again I disagree. Certainly you must have had bad experiences, but haven’t you ever attended an NO Mass which you felt was up to your standards? I could never attend the Easter Vigil in Latin, but I love the current celebration.

And I, yours–thank you!

Lux

It’s not a question if I consider the NO watered-down, please ref to many of the quotes that The Holy Father, et al., have cited concerning watered-down/insipid liturgies.

You might want to reconsider your stance on finances. Sure, money’s important… but when it starts taking center stage in one’s priorities, well, I’m sure you know where I’m going with that!

Also, please know that silent prayer IS “active participation”. We aren’t members of an “audience”… we’re suppose to be worshipping God, not seeing a night club act.

 

[Caveman]

Having the mass in a another language is gonna exclude those who dont speak that language. Stupid to undo VatII

CC,
You might want to reconsider, especially in light that the Latin-to-Whatever Language missal has Latin on one page, and the given language on the other. A non-Latin speaker following the Latin Mass really doesn’t encounter all that much trouble. In fact, ever since I’ve started attending the TLM, I joke as to “how much English I’ve learned”. Seeing that 80% of English comes from Latin.

Also, seeing that all those people are “gonna be excluded”… did you know that The Latin Mass was been around since Pope St Gregory the Great (I believe that was the 6th century), and even in it’s embryonic form, the Latin Mass has been around since Sts. Peter and Paul first preached in Rome (The words of The Consecration are the exact same words said in the 1st century). The Western Church flourished for an awful long time with The Latin Mass.

Lastly, no one’s calling for Vatican II to be “undone”, just the restoration of the rightful place of the TLM.

Hope this was at least thought provoking.

Thanks!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

It’s not a question if I consider the NO watered-down, please ref to many of the quotes that The Holy Father, et al., have cited concerning watered-down/insipid liturgies.

I hope this is not referring to the NO Mass celebrated as is intended, but rather about the numerous Masses with personal innovations.

You might want to reconsider your stance on finances. Sure, money’s important… but when it starts taking center stage in one’s priorities, well, I’m sure you know where I’m going with that!

Again, if the people withhold contributions, the whole parish suffers. I am not speaking of allowing people to dictate some sort of outlawed liturgy, but acknowledging a parish preference in approved liturgical celebration.

Also, please know that silent prayer IS “active participation”. We aren’t members of an “audience”… we’re suppose to be worshipping God, not seeing a night club act.

What kind of “silent prayer”?
and what kind of Participation?

When people understand the prayers, it is far more likely that they will be attentive to the celebration, rather than praying on their own (saying the rosary or other prayers), as was so common during Latin Masses.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

I hope this is not referring to the NO Mass celebrated as is intended, but rather about the numerous Masses with personal innovations.

Well, Lux, if you look at the actual documents of the 2d Vatican Council, you’ll see what was ***initially intended ***was nothing like the Hula Mass, Polka Mass, Cowboy Mass, Puppet Mass, and my all time favorite, Animal Sacrifice Mass (go to my blog, and type in the search ((upper left corner)) “animal sacrifice Mass”, you’ll see what I mean) Tower of Babel that we have now.

Again, if the people withhold contributions, the whole parish suffers. I am not speaking of allowing people to dictate some sort of outlawed liturgy, but acknowledging a parish preference in approved liturgical celebration.

What exactly is “parish preference”? That sounds an awful lot like the “Cafeteria Catholicism” that Cdl Arinze spoke of. Seriously, I’m not saying this trying to be sarcastic… but think about it; what’s so hard about Catholics being Catholic? Why such an emphasis on “THIS is what I want!!”?

What kind of “silent prayer”?
and what kind of Participation?

The kind of silent prayer and active participation the Pope John Paul II spoke of. Quiet, dignified, reverend, respectful prayer. Not the all to previlant 3 ring circus that, unfortunantly, many parishes have become.

When people understand the prayers, it is far more likely that they will be attentive to the celebration, rather than praying on their own (saying the rosary or other prayers), as was so common during Latin Masses.

Again, not trying to be sarcastic… but why can’t Catholics present day just put forth some effort? Does everything have to be spoon-fed? Sheesh, learn a couple of prayers in Latin, for cryin’ out loud! It isn’t all that hard! Like I mentioned to CentCatholic, I never realized how much English I’ve “learned” since I started learning Latin!

But real quick, Latin is one of the glues that holds The Western Church together. Example: when I was stationed in Japan, it didn’t make sense for me to attend Mass off-base, nor would the locals attend Mass ON base. And besides, many of the Japanese priests would sit at a sawed off “table” (sans altar) Shinto style. That left a VERY bad taste in my mouth.

But anyhow, I remember reading the memoirs of a WWII Navy Chaplain. He freely admitted that he always thought that Mass in Liturgical Latin was “somewhat silly”, as he put it. But one Sunday, he realized just how important Liturgical Latin was — there he was somewhere in the South Pacific, attending Mass as celebrated by a French missionary priest. So here’s this Frenachman, South Pacific Melanesians, and Americans… three different languages, but everyone worshipping the same, everyone understand the same! Could the same be said present day? Not by a long shot.

One thing to consider also, my friend - Latin is a dead language. Thank God! What’s meant is said, and what’s said is meant.

Dead languages CAN’T change meanings. Live languages CAN. Just look at the word “gay”. A generation ago, “gay” mean “happy and carefree”. Not any longer.

Please remember also that not that long ago, Bill Clinton asked “what’s the definition of ‘is’?” And people took him seriously.

Do we really want to play fast and loose with The Consecration? This IS My Body. But what does “this” mean? What does “is” mean? What does “my” mean? What does “body” mean?What those words mean now, very well could mean something different in 20 years, right?

Just something to think about!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Well, Lux, if you look at the actual documents of the 2d Vatican Council, you’ll see what was ***initially intended ***was nothing like the Hula Mass, Polka Mass, Cowboy Mass, Puppet Mass, and my all time favorite, Animal Sacrifice Mass (go to my blog, and type in the search ((upper left corner)) “animal sacrifice Mass”, you’ll see what I mean) Tower of Babel that we have now.

Again,this is not what I am saying. You don’t need a Latin Mass, just a Mass celebrated according to the rubrics.

What exactly is “parish preference”? That sounds an awful lot like the “Cafeteria Catholicism” that Cdl Arinze spoke of. Seriously, I’m not saying this trying to be sarcastic… but think about it; what’s so hard about Catholics being Catholic? Why such an emphasis on “THIS is what I want!!”?

You are crossing the line here. A preference for the prescribed rite, rather than a legitimate option is NOT a cafeteria Catholic. Remember the norm IS the NO, not the TLM

The kind of silent prayer and active participation the Pope John Paul II spoke of. Quiet, dignified, reverend, respectful prayer. Not the all to previlant 3 ring circus that, unfortunantly, many parishes have become.

It sounds like your complaint is with abusive Masses. Still there are many legitimate options, which you may not like. This is your prerogative, but please stop the inuendos toward those who do not agree.

Again, not trying to be sarcastic… but why can’t Catholics present day just put forth some effort? Does everything have to be spoon-fed? Sheesh, learn a couple of prayers in Latin, for cryin’ out loud! It isn’t all that hard! Like I mentioned to CentCatholic, I never realized how much English I’ve “learned” since I started learning Latin!

Again, this is not for you to dictate. Certainly it is easy to learn the ordinary prayers in Latin, but the readings is something far different, and not necessary. There are so few who will benefit, that it is definitely not “in the common good” to replace many NO Masses with the TLM. There needs to be a reasonable number, but I can’t see the need or even the possibility of one TLM Mass in every parish every week.

But real quick, Latin is one of the glues that holds The Western Church together. Example: when I was stationed in Japan, it didn’t make sense for me to attend Mass off-base, nor would the locals attend Mass ON base

.

The ordinary prayers are quite familiar to most people because they are now in the vernacular. Please don’t tell me you would understand the readings or a homily in Latin, or even if you do, it is unreasonable to expect all Catholics to be that fluent in Latin.

I do agree that the TLM must be preserved, but not forced on those who prefer to worship in the current rite.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Again,this is not what I am saying. You don’t need a Latin Mass, just a Mass celebrated according to the rubrics.

If you are so desire the Mass of Paul VI in English… well then, God bless you! I have no problem with that. I desire the TLM as per the instructions of His Holiness. Unfortunantly, Lux, I’m starting to get the distinct impression that you DO have a problem with that.

You are crossing the line here. A preference for the prescribed rite, rather than a legitimate option is NOT a cafeteria Catholic. Remember the norm IS the NO, not the TLM

I crossed no line. Common sense dictates that the call for “preference” is exactly the reason as to why The Church is in so much trouble in so many quarters today.

It sounds like your complaint is with abusive Masses. Still there are many legitimate options, which you may not like. This is your prerogative, but please stop the inuendos toward those who do not agree.

What innuendo? If you go back and read what I posted, you will clearly see that I stated “Not the all to previlant 3 ring circus that, unfortunantly, many parishes have become.”

I’m sure you see that I didn’t say “all”, nor did I say “most”. I said “many”. Do you mean to tell me that abuse doesn’t occure, or that it, as worse, is only a very small fraction?

Again, this is not for you to dictate. Certainly it is easy to learn the ordinary prayers in Latin, but the readings is something far different, and not necessary. There are so few who will benefit, that it is definitely not “in the common good” to replace many NO Masses with the TLM. There needs to be a reasonable number, but I can’t see the need or even the possibility of one TLM Mass in every parish every week.

Again, Lux… you’re putting words in my mouth. I’ve “dictated” nothing. I simply asked a question. Nor have I said that the TLM should (your words) “replace” many NO Masses.

The ordinary prayers are quite familiar to most people because they are now in the vernacular. Please don’t tell me you would understand the readings or a homily in Latin, or even if you do, it is unreasonable to expect all Catholics to be that fluent in Latin.

That’s a silly argument. There hasn’t been a sermon in Latin for over 1,500 years. No one said a thing about anyone “being fluent”. I just asked what’s so hard about learning a few of the basics. Seriously… what’s **so hard **about learning the Ave Maria or Pater Noster? In the meantime, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I do agree that the TLM must be preserved, but not forced on those who prefer to worship in the current rite.

Yet again, Lux, who in the world said anything even remotly close to the TLM being “forced” on anyone? Not once have I said that the New Mass is invalid nor have I called for it’s abolition. Please cease with the innuendo.

It’s obvious that you would rather attend the NO. Fine, go right ahead. All I’m asking for, is a wider and more generous application of the Traditional Latin Mass. Gee, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah… Pope John Paul II back in 1988. Whatever happened to that “wide and generous” application?

19 years later. And now the Novus Ordo folks scream foul. I believe that I’ve been reasonable and fair-handed with you. I’ve even tried to joke with you. But it’s becoming increasingly clear to me, that even *the possibility *of a wider use of the TLM upsets you.

And that’s very sad.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

If you are so desire the Mass of Paul VI in English… well then, God bless you! I have no problem with that. I desire the TLM as per the instructions of His Holiness. Unfortunantly, Lux, I’m starting to get the distinct impression that you DO have a problem with that.

His holiness has not given any official instructions.

I crossed no line. Common sense dictates that the call for “preference” is exactly the reason as to why The Church is in so much trouble in so many quarters today.

A preference within approved options? Perhaps you need to rethink why you are so rigid.

What innuendo? If you go back and read what I posted, you will clearly see that I stated “Not the all to previlant 3 ring circus that, unfortunantly, many parishes have become.”

What innuendo?? How about calling a preference between approved options “Cafeteria Catholic”
You said: “What exactly is “parish preference”? That sounds an awful lot like the “Cafeteria Catholicism” that Cdl Arinze spoke of. Seriously, I’m not saying this trying to be sarcastic… but think about it; what’s so hard about Catholics being Catholic? Why such an emphasis on “THIS is what I want!!”?”

I’m sure you see that I didn’t say “all”, nor did I say “most”. I said “many”. Do you mean to tell me that abuse doesn’t occure, or that it, as worse, is only a very small fraction?

There are instructions for handling abuse. Reverting to the TLM is not one of them.

Again, Lux… you’re putting words in my mouth. I’ve “dictated” nothing. I simply asked a question. Nor have I said that the TLM should (your words) “replace” many NO Masses.

The original post referenced an article which said one in every Parish. This is far more than the “common Good” in my area.

That’s a silly argument. There hasn’t been a sermon in Latin for over 1,500 years. No one said a thing about anyone “being fluent”. I just asked what’s so hard about learning a few of the basics. Seriously… what’s **so hard **about learning the Ave Maria or Pater Noster? In the meantime, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

If it is only a few prayers in Latin, what about the rest of the Mass & the readings? I had no more difficulty with Mass in a foreign country than in Latin. So what of your argument for a universal Mass? The “common Good” is far better served by a Mass in the vernacular.

But it’s becoming increasingly clear to me, that even *the possibility *of a wider use of the TLM upsets you.

Not at all. I am arguing against a specific number being instructed, rather than the need and ability being assessed.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

His holiness has not given any official instructions.

Apparently you missed last year’s Summorum Pontificum. No where does it (or I) ever call for the abolition of the NO. I don’t know why you keep insisting that there’s this call to abolish such.

A preference within approved options? Perhaps you need to rethink why you are so rigid.

Rigid as far as what… my rightful aspirations (per Pope John Paul II *Ecclesia Dei *Indult, not to mention Pope St Pius V’s Quo Primum)?

What innuendo?? How about calling a preference between approved options “Cafeteria Catholic”
You said: “What exactly is “parish preference”? That sounds an awful lot like the “Cafeteria Catholicism” that Cdl Arinze spoke of. Seriously, I’m not saying this trying to be sarcastic… but think about it; what’s so hard about Catholics being Catholic? Why such an emphasis on “THIS is what I want!!”?”

You’re missing the point. The “what I want” mentality is exactly why there is so much vertical, vice horizontal worship in so many parishes. When the “what I want” mentality starts to be pervasive, it’s not long that Clown Masses are far away. In far too many parishes, it’s “all about me”.

There are instructions for handling abuse. Reverting to the TLM is not one of them.

And we see how wonderfully those were implimented. But anyhow, the TLM was never suppose to be a cure for abuse. Only in the minds of those who are against the TLM, do they fall back on that argument.

But the TLM is rock-solid and unchanging. Can the same be said of the NO and it’s never ending parade of variation/mutation? Such as the “Animal Sacrifice Mass” or the Funeral Mass for a dog, just to name a couple.

The original post referenced an article which said one in every Parish. This is far more than the “common Good” in my area.

Since wqhen does “one in every parish” equate into “abolition of the NO”? And that may not be “the common good”* in your opinion*, but why not give the TLM a fair shake?

If it is only a few prayers in Latin, what about the rest of the Mass & the readings? I had no more difficulty with Mass in a foreign country than in Latin. So what of your argument for a universal Mass? The “common Good” is far better served by a Mass in the vernacular.

Hmmmm… you asked “So what of your argument for a universal Mass?”. “Universal” in Greek translated to what word, again? Oh, that’s right… “Catholic”. Did you not read what I posted before about how Liturgical Latin binds all languages and cultures, as well as is never changing (unlike “live” languages?).

Seriously, are you even bothering reading all of my replys?

Not at all. I am arguing against a specific number being instructed, rather than the need and ability being assessed.

I’m innundated by the reports (as well as first-hand observations) at the number of young people who are “discovering” the TLM. This is amazing, especially in light of the steady diet of anti-traditional sneerings the Faithful have been fed these past 40 years.

I get the distinct impression that you want to bury the patient before he’s even been to the doctor.

If you’re so sure that the TLM will be rejected, then why the opposition?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

OK, I guess we are not understanding each other.
C:

Seriously, are you even bothering reading all of my replys?

I could say the same to you
C:

I’m innundated by the reports (as well as first-hand observations) at the number of young people who are “discovering” the TLM. This is amazing, especially in light of the steady diet of anti-traditional sneerings the Faithful have been fed these past 40 years.

I get the distinct impression that you want to bury the patient before he’s even been to the doctor.

If you’re so sure that the TLM will be rejected, then why the opposition?

I repeat–

Not at all. I am arguing against a specific number being instructed, rather than the need and ability being assessed.

&

I do agree that the TLM must be preserved, but not forced on those who prefer to worship in the current rite.

Lux

 

[Nickkname]

From The Telegraph (of London). Here’s the first few paragraphs; (Emphasis mine)

Latin Mass to return to England and Wales

…all seminaries will be required to teach trainee priests how to say the old Mass so that they can celebrate it in all parishes. Catholic congregations throughout the world will receive special instruction on how to appreciate the old services, formerly known as the Tridentine Rite.

Yesterday’s announcement by the senior Vatican cardinal in charge of Latin liturgy, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, speaking on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI, will horrify Catholic liberals, including many bishops of England and Wales.

Asked whether the Latin Mass would be celebrated in many ordinary parishes in future, Cardinal Castrillon said:*** “Not many parishes – all parishes.*** The Holy Father is offering this not only for the few groups who demand it, but so that everybody knows this way of celebrating the Eucharist.”

Yes, I remember seeing this on Father Z’s blog too. Wonderful news!

 

[Caveman]

Quote:
I do agree that the TLM must be preserved, but not forced on those who prefer to worship in the current rite.

Lux, you’re stil erroneously stating that the TLM is to be “forced” on the Faithful. At best, (in England and Wales so far, let’s hope to God this spreads) there will be a whopping ONE TLM per parish on Sundays only at a minimum.

I honestly don’t understand why the Rad-Novus Ordites are going into melt-down and setting their hair on fire over this.

One **Latin Mass **per parish per week… for Catholics of the Latin Rite. I would think that the thousands of Saints that were nourished and strengthened by such would be rejoicing in Heaven.

Especially the English Martyrs. You remember them, don’t you? Hundreds upon hundreds of Catholic men wonen and children who were tortured (slowly) to death for the High Crime of attending… you guessed it… a Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[Caveman]

Yes, I remember seeing this on Father Z’s blog too. Wonderful news!

You’re right, NN. Wonderful news, indeed!!

 

[LilyM]

Lux, you’re stil erroneously stating that the TLM is to be “forced” on the Faithful. At best, (in England and Wales so far, let’s hope to God this spreads) there will be a whopping ONE TLM per parish on Sundays only at a minimum.

I honestly don’t understand why the Rad-Novus Ordites are going into melt-down and setting their hair on fire over this.

One **Latin Mass **per parish per week… for Catholics of the Latin Rite. I would think that the thousands of Saints that were nourished and strengthened by such would be rejoicing in Heaven.

Especially the English Martyrs. You remember them, don’t you? Hundreds upon hundreds of Catholic men wonen and children who were tortured (slowly) to death for the High Crime of attending… you guessed it… a Traditional Latin Mass.

What about the martyrs in China at this very moment being persecuted for attending underground (non-Government sanctioned) Catholic Masses - I suppose they’re not ‘real’ martyrs because their Masses aren’t in Latin?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Lux, you’re stil erroneously stating that the TLM is to be “forced” on the Faithful. At best, (in England and Wales so far, let’s hope to God this spreads) there will be a whopping ONE TLM per parish on Sundays only at a minimum. .

If a well attended NO Mass is replaced by a TLM in a Parish where Masses are overcrowded, it is being forced on who need to attend that particular Mass. When a Mass is offered in another language, it is because there is a large percentage of the congregation who request it. All I said is that the need should be formally assessed, rather than make a blanket instruction which may not be possible to impliment.

Hope this is more clear.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

What about the martyrs in China at this very moment being persecuted for attending underground (non-Government sanctioned) Catholic Masses - I suppose they’re not ‘real’ martyrs because their Masses aren’t in Latin?

Well, that was an unbelievably shallow and childish thing to say. You’ve managed to insult both the English and the Chinese Martyrs.

But I’ll ask sigh yet again… when did I ever deny the legitimacy of the NO?