The Latin Mass "Not many parishes – ALL parishes" - England and Wales

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

I never argued that the forms were equal in authenticity.

I am questioning the “in every parish” part of the original post.

This was not an official instruction. This has been my only contention in this whole discussion.

Lux

 

[Brendan]

It won’t be necessary to convert priests into a generation of Latin scholars. No one is going to ask a priest getting ready to say the Mass in Latin to translate an account of the Punic Wars or rewrite one of Cicero’s orations…

Exactly.

Pope Benedict has already mandated that all seminarians be taught how to say the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin (and to continue to say it)

Our diocese complies with the Pope’s mandate and therefore, all seminarians are given sufficent instruction in Latin to say the Mass, and are taught to do so.

In addition, one of our recently ordained priests came to our parish this weekend to say the Mass according to the Missal of 1962. He spent about a week with the priests at St. John Cantius in Chicago to learn the rubrics. The latin he had already learned in the seminary.

So, yes, it most certainly IS possible. All it takes is to have a seminarian spend a week with a priest who knows the Extraordinary Form, and you are all set.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Pope Benedict has already mandated that all seminarians be taught how to say the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin (and to continue to say it)

I have not seen this. I checked with a seminarian from my diocese, and will let you know his response.

In addition, one of our recently ordained priests came to our parish this weekend to say the Mass according to the Missal of 1962. He spent about a week with the priests at St. John Cantius in Chicago to learn the rubrics. The latin he had already learned in the seminary.

I see, good that he had a week to spare, and a latin priest available to help him. This is not always the case.

Lux

 

[Brendan]

I have not seen this. I checked with a seminarian from my diocese, and will let you know his response.

Sacramentum Caritatis - Pope Benedict

The Latin language

1. None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (184)

I see, good that he had a week to spare, and a latin priest available to help him. This is not always the case.

Lux

The Fraternal Society of St. Peter, and the priests at St. John Cantius in Chicago make themselves available for this instruction. If the priest cannot come to one of the above locations, the FSSP had a video instruction series available to priests at no charge.

Back when Detroit first established a single ‘Indult’ Mass. The Archdiocese did not call upon one of the orders that specialize in the 1962 Missal, but rather chose to use diocesan priests.

My pastor availed himself of this instruction so that he could ‘cover’ for the primary celebrants if need, and did so on several occasions.

Most diocese actually require their priests to take some type of continuing education, and makes time and funds available for such a purpose.

So if a priest had need to know the Mass, resources are certainly available.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

OK,

Again, I wish to say that I am not anti TLM. I do wish to see this beautiful form of celebration preserved. From re-reading this document, I do see that the readings, homily, and prayer of the faithful are excepted from the latin. The last TLM I attended a few years back, only had the homily and prayer excepted, and was therefore difficult to follow.

Also I did check on the type of document referenced.

Apostolic Exhortation

A letter written by the Pope to the Church encouraging its people to take some particular action.

Because apostolic exhortations do not define the development of doctrine, they are lower in formal authority than encyclical letters, which are directed to the whole Church and which may define development of doctrine.

A recent example would be Pope John Paul II’s apostolic exhortation, Ecclesia in America, January 22, 1999, encouraging the faithful to seek the living Christ and find conversion, communion and solidarity within the context of the Great Jubilee and the new evangelization.

Vatican documents include, in descending order of formal authority: apostolic constitutions, encyclical letters, encyclical epistles, apostolic exhortations, apostolic letters, letters and messages.

I am still wondering if every seminary teaches all seminarians Latin, and if there is any action taken if they do not.

Hopefully the TLM will soon be available to all who wish to attend, without eliminating any well attended NO Masses.

Lux

 

[E.E.N.S]

Mica, mica, stella parva.

[Twinkle, twinkle, little star!]

Pax vobiscum.

Oh, and here I always thought they were saying, “Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.” I guess you learn something new every day after all!

 

[Brendan]

OK,

Again, I wish to say that I am not anti TLM. I do wish to see this beautiful form of celebration preserved. From re-reading this document, I do see that the readings, homily, and prayer of the faithful are excepted from the latin. The last TLM I attended a few years back, only had the homily and prayer excepted, and was therefore difficult to follow.

Actually, Pope Benedict was refering to the Ordinary Form in this document. I don’t normally attend a TLM myself, but our parish has one. In that one, one of the altar boys reads the Reading at the same time as the priest reads the Epistle. The priest will read the Gospel in English as part of the homily.

The first part of this deals with large Masses that include significant numbers of people who speak different languages. Pope Benedict is saying here that these gatherings should have the Masses said in Latin.

Also I did check on the type of document referenced.

Yes, this is the traditional format from an Episcopal Synod, because it deals with what we should be DOING and opposed to BELIEVING.

An Encyclical expounds on a matter of Theological Truth. It expounds and clarifies Doctrine.

An Exhortation exponds on matters of disciple, it clarifies what the clergy and faithful should be doing to further their spiritual lives.

That is pretty much what the word ‘Exhort’ means.(Exhortari - Latin to incide or strongly appeal towards the good .)

One more thing, this document doesn’t just represent the Pope’s thoughts on the matter. It is the result of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. Bishops from all around the world, every nation, were called by Pope John Paul II to discuss the role of the Eucharist in the life of the Church. He did not live to see the Synod, that fell to Pope Benedict.

At this Synod, the Bishops of the world produced several thoughts and recommendations re the Eucharist and the Mass and presented this to Pope Benedict. Sacramentum Caritatis is the distillation of the bishops’s recommendations to the Pontiff.

I am still wondering if every seminary teaches all seminarians Latin, and if there is any action taken if they do not.

Probably not, but that doesn’t mean that they should (on both counts). Ours required 1 year of Latin, after the 2005 Exhortation, it added another year plus the training to say the Ordinary Form in Latin.

Hopefully the TLM will soon be available to all who wish to attend, without eliminating any well attended NO Masses.

Lux

I agree, I would also add that it doesn’t mean that it should be relegated to some wierd hour either. If a parish has 3 Sunday Masses, have the first be in Latin.

And in the spirit of what Pope Benedict had to say about Masses for people in multicultural environments, say an English\Spanish parish, have 1 in English, 1 in Latin and 1 in Spanish. In that way, all can worship together in the same language.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

ok when you say “latin Mass”, are you referring to a latin NO, or a tredentine

This article is referrring to the tredentine, but from this discussion, I do not think everyone is on the same page.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Hi again,

I never argued that the forms were equal in authenticity.

I am questioning the “in every parish” part of the original post.

This was not an official instruction. This has been my only contention in this whole discussion.

Lux

If they’re “equal”… then why not in every parish? That is unless the NO is “more equal” than the Tridentine. Shades of Animal Farm.

And as far as an “official instruction” is concerned… when kind of official instruction are you expecting? Cdl Castrillon Hoyos is The Holy Father’s “man”, so to speak, on all things TLM. Just about anything and everything concerning the TLM is the responsibility of Cdl Castrillon Hoyos.

So when the good Cardinal says that all seminarians will be instructed on the TLM, and eventually, said Mass will be celebrated in ALL parishes in England and Wales… AND keeping in mind that both are equal… what’s the problem?

Unless there’s an anti-TLM bias. I’m not accusing you of that, but let’s just say that there are many in The Church that harbor such.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Are you aware of the process for any liturgical changes? There must be an official document sent to the bishop’s conference, and then the bishops send official word to the parish (as was done with the 2002 GIRM, which was not implimented until much later. and RS which was instructed in Holy Week, but not implimented until Advent)

I am not anti TLM, but do not see much change without official documentation’. I personally do not feel it wil come. There may be a little more latin maybe even more latin NO, but I sincerely doubt we will see much of the full tredentine, with the latin readings, and the priest keeping his back to the congregation.

Lux

 

[E.E.N.S]

tredentine,

Tridentine. Or as it is officially called, “The Extraordinary Form”

and the priest keeping his back to the congregation.
Lux

A more proper way to say this would be, “where the people, with the priest, face the altar…” or “all face the Lord as one…”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The time frame is incorrect - not truth. A lie.

The first sentence of the article says it was effectively banned BY ROME. Also not truth, also a blatant lie. It never was. Produce your document which says so, because the Encyclial accompanying the promulgation of the NO certainly says no such thing - papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6missal.htm and I don’t have time to do an indepth search for other documents.

As for those ‘private Masses’, my understanding is that the restriction simply meant they couldn’t be publicly advertised in bulletins or newspapers and such like NO Masses were.

Doesn’t mean lay people who were told or otherwise found out where they were happening, on a private basis, couldn’t attend them, nor that those lay people couldn’t tell others about 'em too. I’ve heard numerous stories of lay people who did just that.

Not to mention that numerous religious institutions (monasteries and convents) held them, held them regularly, and permitted lay people to come along too, they didn’t shut the doors on 'em. St Padre Pio, for one concrete example - he was allowed to continue to say the TLM, said it at the same time every day and in the same place as he always had, EVERYONE knew and could attend if they so desired.

Their restriction for ‘private’ use, as far as I am aware, doesn’t mean, as you seem to be implying, that laity couldn’t attend them, they most certainly could. I’d like to see you demonstrate the contrary.

In England at least, the word “effectively” can mean “in effect, for all practical purposes” (with the implication that the contrary may, perhaps, have been intended). So “effectively banned”, in an English newspaper, can mean either:​

• banned, and banned in an effective (= thorough) manner
  or
• for all practical purposes, treated as though banned
  **They do not mean the same thing ****ISTM that that ambiguity is what is causing trouble between you & the OP. The author of the article is not lying. Maybe US English is different ? **

As for attending - after the gaining of the “Agatha Christie Indult” of 1971, the English bishops interpreted it narrowly, so as to make lay attendance at the Old Mass as infrequent as possible. Matters only began to improve in 1984. Even after “Ecclesia Dei” was issued in 1988, attempts were made at Rome to interpret the indult so as to apply it only to former followers of Mgr. Lefebvre. Even then, more than a few bishops (not in England alone, either) forbade Catholics to publicise Masses offered in virtue of the new indult. One obstacle after another was put in people’s way to stop the OM being offered.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Tridentine. Or as it is officially called, “The Extraordinary Form” A more proper way to say this would be, “where the people, with the priest, face the altar…” or “all face the Lord as one…”

However you say it, I am asking how many people are speaking a Latin NO, rather than a true TLM. If we are speaking of preserving the form, the altar must be turned, and the readings as well as the ordinary prayers in Latin. I wouldn’t bet the ranch that we will see one in every parish any time soon, if ever, but I do agree that this beautiful form must be preserved, with as many Masses that are possible according to the need and ability to be celebrated.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Are you aware of the process for any liturgical changes? There must be an official document sent to the bishop’s conference, and then the bishops send official word to the parish (as was done with the 2002 GIRM, which was not implimented until much later. and RS which was instructed in Holy Week, but not implimented until Advent)

Why “must there be an official document sent to the bishops conference”? Says who? The official representative for The Holy See concerning the TLM has already stated that the TLM will (in England and Wales, for the time being) be taught in all seminaries, and eventually, there will be a TLM in every parish. This is not a hard one to figure out.

By the way, the examples you gave really don’t pertain in this case. The 2002 GIRM had to do with changes and translations. The restoration of the TLM has already been addressed. Seein g that The Holy Father considers both rqual, they are simply a different liturgy for the same Rite.

I am not anti TLM, but do not see much change without official documentation’. I personally do not feel it wil come. There may be a little more latin maybe even more latin NO, but I sincerely doubt we will see much of the full tredentine, with the latin readings, and the priest keeping his back to the congregation.

Lux

Well, concerning “a little more Latin in the NO”… you may be right! Personally, I feel that the restoration is picking up steam. And once many of the Faithful see for themselves what the TLM is REALLY all about… despite a steady diet of anti-Latin Mass tirades for almost 40 years… the TLM will only grow even more popular.

By the way, your description of “the priest keeping his back to the congregation” is a prime example of what I’m reffering to. Many of the NO mindset keep bring up how the priest “has his back to me!”

Those who really do understand the reason for such, know it’s because the congregation JOINS WITH the priest in facing Jesus, physically present, in the Tabernacle.

For is “Latin Massers”, we know that Jesus is front and center, and we ALL face towards Him. Unfortunantly, in most NO parishes, Jesus is lost somewhere in the shuffle, and ususally sent off to some out of the way “Sacred Broom Closet”.

After all, if we’re a Christ centered Church, then why isn’t CHRIST CENTERED IN our churches?

 

[E.E.N.S]

However you say it, I am asking how many people are speaking a Latin NO, rather than a true TLM. If we are speaking of preserving the form, the altar must be turned, and the readings as well as the ordinary prayers in Latin. I wouldn’t bet the ranch that we will see one in every parish any time soon, if ever, but I do agree that this beautiful form must be preserved, with as many Masses that are possible according to the need and ability to be celebrated.

Lux

When you said, “the priest keeping his back to the people…” I was merely trying to inform you that this is an improper way to state it, and it is often termed as such from people who have a strong dislike for the traditional mass. Another interesting note: celebrating the mass ad orientem is the norm for both the OF and the EF, however the OF have the option of celebrating the mass versus populum. Unfortunately, 99.9% of the time we only see the OF mass celebrated versus populum.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Why “must there be an official document sent to the bishops conference”? Says who?

This is the way changes come about. Is a civil law passed because some leglislator says something? No, there is a process.

This is also true for the Church.

It has also been stated that the Pope prefers Communion on the tongue, but this has not changed the option.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

This is the way changes come about. Is a civil law passed because some leglislator says something? No, there is a process.

This is also true for the Church.

It has also been stated that the Pope prefers Communion on the tongue, but this has not changed the option.

Lux

Without a doubt, there will be many scratching of papers, But the essesne is this — the point man for The Pope has said the groundwork, It IS going to happen. It may take 7-19 years, nut it’'s happen.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Yes, I’m sure the TLM will be preserved, but unless there is a big change in the parishes, and more Bishops who will make this a priority, there will not be a TLM in every parish.

Lux

 

[Caveman]

Yes, I’m sure the TLM will be preserved, but unless there is a big change in the parishes, and more Bishops who will make this a priority, there will not be a TLM in every parish.

Lux

Not according to The Holy Father’s official representative for all things TLM.

The penduluum is swinging the other way. May God bless The Holy Father.

 

[mh2007]

The wisdom and knowledge expressed by the good men and women participating in this forum is impressive.

For people like me (ordinary intelligence, and receding brain power due to advanced age), praying in simple English will have to do. I think Jesus will understand. In fact, I’m not convinced He envisioned much complexity from the average guy. One thing I’ve always felt great comfort in is the simplicity of His most kind and gentle way.