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Caveman
Guest
I agree that Jesus would understand as well, MH. I’m just having difficulty as to undersatanding why some look upon this situation as if the sky was falling simply because The Church is returing to tradition.
The Latin Mass "Not many parishes – ALL parishes" - England and Wales
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M
mh2007
Guest
I have heard a number of lifelong Catholics lamenting the Latin Mass, expressing disappointment in the resurgence of this tradition.
I am also old enough to remember when the Latin Mass was changed to the vernacular, however I was too young to be set in my ways back in the late 1960’s. At that time, I do remember clearly there were nuns in my parish who had great difficulty changing ‘habits.’ Many left.
One of the recent complaints I’ve heard is very few people know Latin, and therefore they have difficulty understanding the Mass. But I think it runs deeper than language. Many American Catholics believe the Church needs to be progressive, and allow the laity greater participation in the liturgy. They fear re-adopting the old traditions will foster an elite clergy, which gives them heartburn. They have witnessed the exponential decline in priests and nuns in the Church over the past 4 decades. Many of them believe allowing priests to marry, and ordaining women would revitalize the Church. Thus, they view the resurgence of Latin as a step in the opposite direction.
I am also old enough to remember when the Latin Mass was changed to the vernacular, however I was too young to be set in my ways back in the late 1960’s. At that time, I do remember clearly there were nuns in my parish who had great difficulty changing ‘habits.’ Many left.
One of the recent complaints I’ve heard is very few people know Latin, and therefore they have difficulty understanding the Mass. But I think it runs deeper than language. Many American Catholics believe the Church needs to be progressive, and allow the laity greater participation in the liturgy. They fear re-adopting the old traditions will foster an elite clergy, which gives them heartburn. They have witnessed the exponential decline in priests and nuns in the Church over the past 4 decades. Many of them believe allowing priests to marry, and ordaining women would revitalize the Church. Thus, they view the resurgence of Latin as a step in the opposite direction.
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1234
Guest
Well, being of a practical bent, I wonder where are the Latin training and time for the few remaining priests to learn the Latin rite–are going to come from. I know there are some young-uns who are enthusiastic about the Latin rite, but I don’t think reflects the inclinations of the vast majority. I don’t know how many schools even teach Latin anymore, as they are cutting out art, music, phys ed and other things I regard as more essential (I took 4 years of Latin in HS and two years in college centuries ago).
Pope John XXIII of happy memory published something more or less official exhorting that all teaching in the seminaries be in Latin. I don’t think that this was ever implemented.
Pope John XXIII of happy memory published something more or less official exhorting that all teaching in the seminaries be in Latin. I don’t think that this was ever implemented.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
:banghead:
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Some would say that as long as we had the Latin Mass, we had plenty of priests and religious. It was only after we got rid of the Latin Mass that the decline in vocations occurred.
Some would say that when the Mass was offered in Latin, it was said in a more reverent manner.
Some might say that the loss of reverence is when Mass attendance, conversions, and vocations went into decline.
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mh2007
Guest
Come to think of it, the Latin Mass did seem to be celebrated with greater reverence, although many changes came from Vatican II.
I also think John XXIII brought a lot to the table. I wish I had known him. It’s amazing how much change he fostered.
I also think John XXIII brought a lot to the table. I wish I had known him. It’s amazing how much change he fostered.
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mh2007
Guest
More on John XXIII and modernism:
I found this interesting clip about him…
In 1953 Roncalli was made a cardinal and appointed patriarch of Venice. His address to the diocesan synod (1957) gives a glimpse of the future pope: “Authoritarianism suffocates truth, reducing everything to a rigid and empty formalism that is dependent on outside discipline. It curbs wholesome initiative, mistakes hardness for firmness, inflexibility for dignity. Paternalism is a caricature of true fatherliness. It is often accompanied by an unjustifiable proprietary attitude to one’s victim, a habit of intruding, a lack of proper respect for the rights of subordinates.”
After he became pope in 1958…
His first public address was to the leaders of nations: “Look at the people entrusted to you and listen to their voices…” He then went to the Holy Office (charged with guarding against heresy) and looked up his own file. There was a note attached to it: “suspected of Modernism.” This is why his career had been ruined thirty years before.
Imagine that. His Modernism prevailed.
I found this interesting clip about him…
In 1953 Roncalli was made a cardinal and appointed patriarch of Venice. His address to the diocesan synod (1957) gives a glimpse of the future pope: “Authoritarianism suffocates truth, reducing everything to a rigid and empty formalism that is dependent on outside discipline. It curbs wholesome initiative, mistakes hardness for firmness, inflexibility for dignity. Paternalism is a caricature of true fatherliness. It is often accompanied by an unjustifiable proprietary attitude to one’s victim, a habit of intruding, a lack of proper respect for the rights of subordinates.”
After he became pope in 1958…
His first public address was to the leaders of nations: “Look at the people entrusted to you and listen to their voices…” He then went to the Holy Office (charged with guarding against heresy) and looked up his own file. There was a note attached to it: “suspected of Modernism.” This is why his career had been ruined thirty years before.
Imagine that. His Modernism prevailed.
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LilyM
Guest
Some might point out that most other mainstream Christian denominations also went through huge changes in the 60s and 70s, and not necessarily for the better. They might point to increasing casualness in non-Catholic services and declining clergy numbers - not to mention sharply declining conversions - among non-Catholic mainstream denominations. Hence the ordination of women - it happened because vocations among men were declining so badly. Some might point to the current crises in the Episcopalian/Anglican Church as a prime example of all of this.
All of which has absolutely zero to do with Latin and everything to do with SOCIETAL loss of respect for religion in all its traditional forms, of which Catholicism and the TLM is only one.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
In my opinion, a priest could learn enough Latin to say the Mass in Latin in a day. With a more leisurely pace and lunch, … a week.
It’s not necessary to learn the whole Latin conjugation and vocabulary to read the Mass in Latin. The priest does read the Mass in English now, so it’s not a major thing to read it in Latin. He’s not going to do translations or do any extemporaneous speaking in Latin. Once they get started, some of the priests will take a greater interest and move forward with more advanced studies.
Most folks already know many of the prayers in Latin already.
We used to have Latin/English missals so folks could follow along during the Latin Mass and read the English as they went.
A few folks had Latin only missals. But mostly they had Latin/English missals. And many were very inexpensive slim paperback editions that fit in your pocket. [Wish I still had my old ones; they disappeared decades ago in one relocation or another.]
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
I really can’t imagine how celebrating a Mass where even the celebrant does not understand the prayers could benefit anyone.
I do agree that the TLM should be preserved, but quality is far preferable to quantity. Far better to have less Masses where the celebrant is well trained, not just winging it.
Lux
I do agree that the TLM should be preserved, but quality is far preferable to quantity. Far better to have less Masses where the celebrant is well trained, not just winging it.
Lux
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Latin is not that difficult. Many English language words are based on Latin. You don’t need to be a Latin scholar. It’s not winging it.
Put the English and the Latin side-by-side. It’s very do-able.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
HI,
I’m not speaking of “doable” I am speaking of celebrating a Mass. I still have one of those old side by side missals. I had just received my First Holy Communion, and attended daily Mass for at least a year. I thought that I just couldn’t read fast enough to keep up with the Priest. I really have no desire to go back to that on a regular basis. It is meaningless, if you are just mouthing sounds, but do not understand what you are saying. (That is more like praying in tongues, which most TLM proponents do not even consider Catholic)
And it isn’t really the original TLM, if the readings are in the vernacular. It is best kept to a number which could be celebrated as it should be. I can’t image the abuses, if no one understands what the Priest is saying. Do you think there will be translations of all the Eucharistic Prayers? If a priest is forced to say this Mass, with little understanding, he may just leave out a few prayers…who would know?
Lux
I’m not speaking of “doable” I am speaking of celebrating a Mass. I still have one of those old side by side missals. I had just received my First Holy Communion, and attended daily Mass for at least a year. I thought that I just couldn’t read fast enough to keep up with the Priest. I really have no desire to go back to that on a regular basis. It is meaningless, if you are just mouthing sounds, but do not understand what you are saying. (That is more like praying in tongues, which most TLM proponents do not even consider Catholic)
And it isn’t really the original TLM, if the readings are in the vernacular. It is best kept to a number which could be celebrated as it should be. I can’t image the abuses, if no one understands what the Priest is saying. Do you think there will be translations of all the Eucharistic Prayers? If a priest is forced to say this Mass, with little understanding, he may just leave out a few prayers…who would know?
Lux
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Language offers opportunity at many different levels.
Math is a language … for example … and you can attain proficiency at many different levels of proficiency. You don’t need calculus to balance your checkbook or pay your mortgage or build a front porch.
English can be learned and taught for different purposes. You can communicate at a basic level OR you can write a letter to a friend OR you can write an essay for the New York Times OR you can teach Shakespeare. All different levels of proficiency.
Similarly, Latin can be learned at different levels and for different purposes. You can learn the basics for a specific purpose, or you can learn enough to read about Caesar’s military campaigns in France in the Latin or you can teach at the high school level or at the college level OR you can learn enough to engage in archeological translations between Greek, Hebrew and Latin.
But you don’t need all that advanced proficiency if your purpose is to be able to say Mass in Latin.
It’s actually pretty easy.
Pax vobiscum.
Math is a language … for example … and you can attain proficiency at many different levels of proficiency. You don’t need calculus to balance your checkbook or pay your mortgage or build a front porch.
English can be learned and taught for different purposes. You can communicate at a basic level OR you can write a letter to a friend OR you can write an essay for the New York Times OR you can teach Shakespeare. All different levels of proficiency.
Similarly, Latin can be learned at different levels and for different purposes. You can learn the basics for a specific purpose, or you can learn enough to read about Caesar’s military campaigns in France in the Latin or you can teach at the high school level or at the college level OR you can learn enough to engage in archeological translations between Greek, Hebrew and Latin.
But you don’t need all that advanced proficiency if your purpose is to be able to say Mass in Latin.
It’s actually pretty easy.
Pax vobiscum.
B
Brendan
Guest
Lux,
I think you are missing something very critical in the nature of the Mass.
The priest acts in persona Christi. It is very much Christ Himself consecrating the gifts, and then offering Himself to the Father as a perfect, unblemished offering in reparation of our sins.
It does not matter if the priest personnaly does not understand the words, as the priest, as a person, is doing nothing other that letting Christ use his mouth and body.
And if you cannot understand how the Sacrifice of Christ Himself does not help us, then the problem there is also independant of language.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Sorry, I was not clear in my post. Funny, that you take this tac after all the posts about kneeling.
I should have said
I really can’t imagine how celebrating a Mass where even the celebrant does not understand the prayers could be more beneficial than a Mass where everyone understands the prayers.
It is far easier to stay focused if you understand what is being prayed.
Lux
I should have said
I really can’t imagine how celebrating a Mass where even the celebrant does not understand the prayers could be more beneficial than a Mass where everyone understands the prayers.
It is far easier to stay focused if you understand what is being prayed.
Lux
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Al_Masetti
Guest
It may be an individual thing.
But Latin isn’t that difficult.
You don’t need to have the conjugations and declensions down cold.
But even today, you can hear or read a prayer in Latin and figure out pretty much what it means without too much of a struggle.
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Nohome
Guest
Agreed. I often find myself distracted when songs have lyrics printed in both English and Latin. Very often the English is not even close to what the song meant in Latin.
As an aside, learning Latin helped me learn Japanese as pronunciations are very similar.
Nohome
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Brendan
Guest
In what respect?
My point is that the ability of the congregation, or even the priest himself to understand the langauge of the prayer is immaterial to the Sacrifice of the Mass.
There really isn’t any need for us to focus on the Eucharistic Prayer itself, as that is really a private conversation between Christ and the Father.
Rather, we should concentrate on consecrating OURSELVES as Christ consecrates the gifts of bread and water, and Adore when the Eucharist is elevated.
How does the priest personal comprehension of what is being said affect either of those?
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Al_Masetti
Guest
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rlg94086
Guest
There are two parts I like:
…my kind of priest. 
That is fantastic! This is what I hope and pray for…at a minimum! I happen to like the Ordinary Form, when it is done right.
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