The Latin Mass - Should It Be the Universal Catholic Mass Again?

[JustaServant]

Good Idea Fairy- Military term; An evil mythical creature that whispers advice and ideas into the ears of military leadership, causing hundreds unnecessary changes and countless wasted man-hours every year. The Good Idea Fairy should be shot on sight if he is seen in your area.

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Apparently not just a military phenomenon.

Is this an inside joke between you and yourself or are you going to let the rest of us know what you’re talking about?

 

[sw85]

Geez…
Maybe if the people who disagree with you would just die off, the world would be a much better place???
We have to be careful we don’t project our limited viewpoints onto the whole darn world. I’ve seen some statistics somewhere else on the site that so called traditional Catholics are a tiny minority of Catholics. But we are not talking about numbers here are we? Is that what the faith reduces to? Isn’t it about human beings in realtionship with Jesus?

I respect your love for the EF Mass and Latin etc, and hopefully share your social activism in regard for the unborn and poor etc, all the traditional aspects of the Catholic Church. Do we really need to label ourselves and separate ourselves from the body of Christ? The labels don’t really matter, doesn’t matter how many like the EF or Latin or OF. Where I come from, these issues are non-issues, they never come up in discussion, and I mean never. Apostasy and Schism and infertile families^^^??? Get a grip please. Come to our parish and volunteer in our schools and see all the “schismatics” raising their Catholic children.

This is extremely testy (which is strangely very common at CAF, as if people are on the hunt for something to be offended by) and an uncharitable reading of my post.

My post was free of any value judgment re: the two forms of the Mass. I attend OF masses exclusively, at least at the moment (the nearest EF mass is an hour and a half’s worth of bad traffic away, and I haven’t any particular connection to it enough to justify making that trip more than once or twice a year). And I acknowledge that my evaluation of demographic trends was based on personal anecdote, hence why I opened it with “I’d be interested in seeing some detailed reports on the differential demographics.” I don’t know how many more weasely qualifiers I need to jam into a post to appease the sensibilities of everyone here.

I hardly think it’s any secret that the Catholic-to-Protestant and Catholic-to-irreligious outflow is more heavily represented among the exclusively OF even after you control for the differences in sample sizes. Selection bias almost certainly has a role to play there but that doesn’t make it any less true. As for fertility, well, that’s anecdote. I see a lot of gray hair and only-child situations at the exclusively-OF-mass parish I attend. At my own parish, senior citizens make up probably the largest plurality and perhaps even a slight majority of the people who fill the pews day-in/day-out. On the extremely rare occasion I go to an EF mass I see young folks with large families, two or three walking or toddling and another one or two carried, and sometimes the woman’s showing – and these are folks who weren’t even alive during Vatican II. Folks my age. The reports I have heard about the attendance at EF masses elsewhere, as well as the anecdotes of my traditionalist friends and sympathizers, etc., seem to ratify this.

But again, I don’t know with any scientific degree of confidence. Which is why I’d be interested in seeing some detailed reports on the differential demographics

Well of course it is, but that’s just your basic sociology of groups.

When you speak about the people who go exclusively to the EF, you have a very small group of people who are making that conscience decision. The OF, quite literally speaking, has everyone else.

An apt analogy would be comparing the “cultural tastes” of the people at the country club to those who to a community recreation centre. Of course you’re going to find more “cultural” people there because it’s a small sub-set of the entire society.

Of course. But the fact that selection bias explains the effect doesn’t mean there’s no effect. It just means the effect is due to selection bias.

This would be relevant if I were expressing a value judgment with respect to either of the two forms of the Mass (i.e., if I were saying the EF is better because the Catholics who go to them tend to be more observant/sincere/orthodox/whatever). But I’m not saying that. I’m saying the demographics are such that we may end up with a Church that is majority EF in a few generations, anyway, which sort of changes the calculations about whether the EF mass “ought” to be made the ordinary form again. Demography is destiny. The ones who inherit the Earth will be the ones who are alive to inherit the Earth.

A friend told me once the average fertility advantage of trad families is about 1 child per couple greater than nontrad families. I have no idea how accurate that is and he may have been using “trad” differently than I am here (hence why I’d be interested in seeing some detailed reports on the differential demographics), but if so, that’s a pretty substantial difference. It’s not so great that it will produce observable differences in demographics in our lifetime, but that’s an advantage that will compound over longer periods of time. It’s what allowed the Christians to outnumber the Romans (that and the fact that the Romans were infanticidal nuts) after, what, 300 years or so? And that was despite active persecution and beginning with much, much smaller numbers.

 

[floresco]

I think that too many people are attached to having Mass in the vernacular to take that away from them. However, I think that the vernacular Mass should follow more closely the recommendations of Vatican II. So I would like to see the current Ordinary Form abrogated and replaced with a vernacular Mass that is an organic development from the Tridentine and more consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium (similar to the interim Mass that immediately preceded the promulgation of the Novus Ordo). At the same time, I would like to see much greater availablility of the Tridentine Mass. I would like it to become the Ordinary Form and the new vernacular Mass the Extraordinary Form.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

On the extremely rare occasion I go to an EF mass I see young folks with large families, two or three walking or toddling and another one or two carried, and sometimes the woman’s showing – and these are folks who weren’t even alive during Vatican II. Folks my age. The reports I have heard about the attendance at EF masses elsewhere, as well as the anecdotes of my traditionalist friends and sympathizers, etc., seem to ratify this.

I’ll add my own anecdote about the SSPX chapel I attend. You could look in the pews and see whole rows taken up by one family, or see how the cry room and side-hall is bursting with mothers holding fussy babies, but I think a simpler way is to just look in the parking lot (and along the street) and see how many 12-passenger vans are sitting there to haul all those kiddos around

• PAX

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I think that too many people are attached to having Mass in the vernacular to take that away from them. However, I think that the vernacular Mass should follow more closely the recommendations of Vatican II. So I would like to see the current Ordinary Form abrogated and replaced with a vernacular Mass that is an organic development from the Tridentine and more consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium (similar to the interim Mass that immediately preceded the promulgation of the Novus Ordo). At the same time, I would like to see much greater availablility of the Tridentine Mass. I would like it to become the Ordinary Form and the new vernacular Mass the Extraordinary Form.

 

[clem456]

This is extremely testy (which is strangely very common at CAF, as if people are on the hunt for something to be offended by) and an uncharitable reading of my post.

.

No, I’m sorry, your post was offensive and uncharitable.
Let’s speak plainly here. Don’t **** on the sidewalk and then accuse people of noticing.

 

[ProVobis]

one’s God given tongue

Languages resulting from the Tower of Babel were God-given as well.

Meant to confuse, of course.

Surely the Catholic Church has a teaching on the comparative value of languages?

Immutable

Furthermore, the Church’s language must be not only universal but also immutable. Modern languages are liable to change, and no single one of them is superior to the others in authority. Thus if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths, varied as they are, would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would, moreover, be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.

But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. it has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use. Certain Latin words, it is true, acquired new meanings as Christian teaching developed and needed to be explained and defended, but these new meanings have long since become accepted and firmly established.

Non-vernacular

Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

In addition, the Latin language "can be called truly catholic."10 It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed "a treasure … of incomparable worth."11. It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Church’s teaching.12 It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.

Veterum Sapientia

 

[Armyvet007]

Is this an inside joke between you and yourself or are you going to let the rest of us know what you’re talking about?

I figured it was more charitable to assume the posters on this thread were affected by the Good Idea Fairy then to assume that they actually think they know more about how the Church is supposed to be then its leadership does.

 

[curlycool89]

Brother JR understandably talks about this a lot because Brother JR is a religious. However, it would be good to realize that 99% of the time on this forum, when we discuss spiritual practices, liturgy, etc, etc, we are talking about what the laity experience, we are talking about secular priests, we are talking about diocesan parishes; we are not talking about the life of the religious.

But it would be fallacious to think that what’s happening in Religious life doesn’t affect what happens to the rest of us secular people. Why else would Pope Benedict tell the bishops he wanted them to focus more on promoting vocations to the religious brotherhood (religious non-priesthood … it’s awkward phrasing either way. We’ll need to work on that).

It’s also a fact that many practices have come from a Religious tradition. Remember how we some people are convinced that a tabernacle in the sanctuary is practically a matter of dogma (I think we can classify is as an “official traditionalist position”)? Franciscan tradition.

And the traditions of Religious life can impact secular life even more. As has been pointed out, if you ask you parish priest to celebrate an EF Mass, and he’s a member of a religious order and the Superior forbids him to celebrate the EF, then you don’t get an EF. Some people complain that we should have more times for confession everyday, but if your parish is served by religious that might not happen because he has community obligations (and his community obligations override his parish obligations).

Spiritual practice? How do we even begin to define spiritual practice apart from the influence of Religious, the masters of spirituality? Diocesan priests do not often learn spirituality and are allowed to develop their own spirituality. There’s also nothing that objectively makes one orthodox spirituality better than another.

Liturgy? Well, many of our best liturgists (as has been pointed out) are Benedictines.

To try and put the laity in a separate realm from Religious is disingenuous. They influence us; it’s their job. To go and say “we don’t want their influence” is, frankly, demeaning. They don’t exist to live in their own little bubble apart from us doing their own thing, they exist to be who they are.

 

[Mike30]

I would love to see it happen but I fear it never will. There are way too many in the Church heirarchy who actively loathe the Extraordinary Form of the Mass for it to have much of a chance to succeed. I well recall a Cardinal from the west coast of the United States who firmly stated that the Extraordinary Form did not serve the spiritual needs of his flock so he was not in favor of promoting it or even allowing it in his area. Sadly that view is all too common. I’m sure all who are old enough will remember the intense, almost visceral reaction, almost outrage of many of the Clergy after the loosining of the restrictions by Pope John Paul II. Things are somewhat better these days but I am not real optimistic it will get much better.

I think that the best we can hope for is a gradual phasing in to where the Extraordinary Form would be offered on certain days in every Parish, Holy Days of obligation etc., and exclusively in certain parishes only. A development that I see forming already.

However I may be overly optimistic about that and after Pope Benedict XVI passes who knows what will happen.

 

[agnes_therese]

Good Idea Fairy- Military term; An evil mythical creature that whispers advice and ideas into the ears of military leadership, causing hundreds unnecessary changes and countless wasted man-hours every year. The Good Idea Fairy should be shot on sight if he is seen in your area.

Apparently not just a military phenomenon.

No, not just military. Also appears often at various corporate headquarters buildings.
(I know, off-topic, but I couldn’t resist)

 

[Armyvet007]

But it would be fallacious to think that what’s happening in Religious life doesn’t affect what happens to the rest of us secular people. Why else would Pope Benedict tell the bishops he wanted them to focus more on promoting vocations to the religious brotherhood (religious non-priesthood … it’s awkward phrasing either way. We’ll need to work on that).

It’s also a fact that many practices have come from a Religious tradition. Remember how we some people are convinced that a tabernacle in the sanctuary is practically a matter of dogma (I think we can classify is as an “official traditionalist position”)? Franciscan tradition.

And the traditions of Religious life can impact secular life even more. As has been pointed out, if you ask you parish priest to celebrate an EF Mass, and he’s a member of a religious order and the Superior forbids him to celebrate the EF, then you don’t get an EF. Some people complain that we should have more times for confession everyday, but if your parish is served by religious that might not happen because he has community obligations (and his community obligations override his parish obligations).

Spiritual practice? How do we even begin to define spiritual practice apart from the influence of Religious, the masters of spirituality? Diocesan priests do not often learn spirituality and are allowed to develop their own spirituality. There’s also nothing that objectively makes one orthodox spirituality better than another.

Liturgy? Well, many of our best liturgists (as has been pointed out) are Benedictines.

To try and put the laity in a separate realm from Religious is disingenuous. They influence us; it’s their job. To go and say “we don’t want their influence” is, frankly, demeaning. They don’t exist to live in their own little bubble apart from us doing their own thing, they exist to be who they are.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I asked a member of my family once where he attended Mass. He responded “St. Pillow of the Sheets.”

IOW, he didn’t go to Mass at all.

One of my family members went to St. Mattressa.

 

[ProVobis]

I think that too many people are attached to having Mass in the vernacular to take that away from them. However, I think that the vernacular Mass should follow more closely the recommendations of Vatican II. So I would like to see the current Ordinary Form abrogated and replaced with a vernacular Mass that is an organic development from the Tridentine and more consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium (similar to the interim Mass that immediately preceded the promulgation of the Novus Ordo). At the same time, I would like to see much greater availablility of the Tridentine Mass. I would like it to become the Ordinary Form and the new vernacular Mass the Extraordinary Form.

I really don’t think this is viable or sustainable. One of the things I noticed is that some of the more difficult-to-translate parts of the Tridentine (Introibo, Lavabo, Deus Qui Humanae, etc.) were removed in the 60’s in preparation of the vernacular and 69 Missal. Heck they still don’t have the Dominus vobiscum and Sursum Corda right in the English IMO. Vernacular presupposes translations and take 10 translators and you’ll get 10 different translations. Controversies and committees surrounding the extraordinary form translations are the last thing the Church needs at this point IMO.

I don’t know if this story is true but one altar server who thought he was serving the Tridentine Mass heard the “priest” say “I will go into the altar of God” and the server (thinking it was an Anglican Mass) responded “And I am getting the heck out of here.”

 

[jam070406]

But it would be fallacious to think that what’s happening in Religious life doesn’t affect what happens to the rest of us secular people. Why else would Pope Benedict tell the bishops he wanted them to focus more on promoting vocations to the religious brotherhood (religious non-priesthood … it’s awkward phrasing either way. We’ll need to work on that).

It’s also a fact that many practices have come from a Religious tradition. Remember how we some people are convinced that a tabernacle in the sanctuary is practically a matter of dogma (I think we can classify is as an “official traditionalist position”)? Franciscan tradition.

And the traditions of Religious life can impact secular life even more. As has been pointed out, if you ask you parish priest to celebrate an EF Mass, and he’s a member of a religious order and the Superior forbids him to celebrate the EF, then you don’t get an EF. Some people complain that we should have more times for confession everyday, but if your parish is served by religious that might not happen because he has community obligations (and his community obligations override his parish obligations).

Spiritual practice? How do we even begin to define spiritual practice apart from the influence of Religious, the masters of spirituality? Diocesan priests do not often learn spirituality and are allowed to develop their own spirituality. There’s also nothing that objectively makes one orthodox spirituality better than another.

Liturgy? Well, many of our best liturgists (as has been pointed out) are Benedictines.

To try and put the laity in a separate realm from Religious is disingenuous. They influence us; it’s their job. To go and say “we don’t want their influence” is, frankly, demeaning. They don’t exist to live in their own little bubble apart from us doing their own thing, they exist to be who they are.

There are religious that celebrate the EF as well.

 

[sw85]

No, I’m sorry, your post was offensive and uncharitable.
Let’s speak plainly here. Don’t **** on the sidewalk and then accuse people of noticing.

There was literally nothing in it that was “offensive and uncharitable” and I defy you to point to anything in it that was. You took offense at it because you misread it. I corrected your misreading of it, including, among other things, your objectively false imputation of traditionalism to me. Your tasteless response here suggests to me you didn’t bother reading that correction.

 

[clem456]

Languages resulting from the Tower of Babel were God-given as well.

Meant to confuse, of course.

Veterum Sapientia

Great quote, but this is what YOU SAID:

**

Indeed. I agree with everything he says. Ecclesiastical Latin has been designed by the Church for its liturgy in the West and document preservation. Why do people think that their vulgar tongue worship is superior to the Church’s? There’s a reason why they call it (or used to call it) the vulgar tongue

**
Excuse me, but the Church’s teaching does not inclulde this condescending approach to languages. Perhaps read Vatican 2’s teaching.

 

[ProVobis]

Excuse me, but the Church’s teaching does not inclulde this condescending approach to languages. Perhaps read Vatican 2’s teaching.

As I noted above, Trent used the “vulgaris” language. I’m well aware that Vatican II used “vernaculae” in its language; that’s why I asked what the meaning of “vulgar” was at the time of Trent.

 

[floresco]

Excuse me, but the Church’s teaching does not inclulde this condescending approach to languages. Perhaps read Vatican 2’s teaching.

Here is a passage that sums up that teaching: 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

In other words, Vatican II taught that use of Latin is to be preserved but a limited amount of vernacular may be used.

 

[OraLabora]

There are religious that celebrate the EF as well.

Many don’t. The point was that this the prerogative of the superior, and nobody can demand an EF out of a religious priest if the superior doesn’t allow it.