The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

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It’s not arrogance, but a hunger for family.
For the record, I didn’t mean that it’s arrogant to desire to have something read or spoken to you in your native tongue. That’s entirely normal and I get that. But when you wish to suppress this privilege for someone who doesn’t speak your native tongue, that sort of national pride is a little too excessive IMO. Besides, it seems to be more of an immigration issue than a Catholic issue.

It’s true that you now have cities like Chicago offering the Mass in 24 some languages, but it wasn’t always that way going back to the 60’s. I know the Poles weren’t getting the Polish translations as quickly as the Anglos got theirs, so many of them were forced to attend Anglo Masses, which they understood less than the Latin Mass at the time. So in these cases, the vernacular wasn’t to everyone’s advantage.
 
For the record, I didn’t mean that it’s arrogant to desire to have something read or spoken to you in your native tongue. That’s entirely normal and I get that. But when you wish to suppress this privilege for someone who doesn’t speak your native tongue, that sort of national pride is a little too excessive IMO. Besides, it seems to be more of an immigration issue than a Catholic issue.

It’s true that you now have cities like Chicago offering the Mass in 24 some languages, but it wasn’t always that way going back to the 60’s. I know the Poles weren’t getting the Polish translations as quickly as the Anglos got theirs, so many of them were forced to attend Anglo Masses, which they understood less than the Latin Mass at the time. So in these cases, the vernacular wasn’t to everyone’s advantage.
I would say it differently. I would say that there will always be room for mass in Latin, be it OF or EF, because of the large numbers of languages in today’s world.

I’m thinking of the 800th Franciscan anniversary, which we celebrated in 2009. Every Franciscan branch of men was asked to send a delegation to Assisi. Just the men, because Assisi is not big enough to include a delegation from every Franciscan branch. With the Franciscan men alone, there were 2100 delegates and 114 languages.

Since the Indians dominate the scene and the Italians were hosting, the speakers could use English or Italian. Everyone else had to use headsets for simultaneous translations. However, there are languages that are not very popular, Polish is one of them. There is only one country that speaks it. The translations were in Spanish, French, German, Arabic and Latin. There is an example where Latin was very helpful. Those friars that came from the Slavic countries, the African countries, Asian countries and Oceania, don’t always speak one of the other European languages. In which case, they have mandatory Latin in their curriculum. For those of us who speak one of the official Franciscan languages, Latin is an elective. That would be Italian, French, Spanish, German, English and Arabic. Because the Indian friars are the largest number, English is the most spoken. It used to be Italian, because Franciscans are of Italian origin. That’s no longer the case. Franciscans are still of Italian origin. What’s no longer the case is that Italian dominates.

This example helps us understand the next point. Do people prefer to hear in their own language? Of course they do. Can it always happen? No. Is it arrogance, when it cannot happen? No. It would be arrogance if it’s possible and it’s denied. The Church is opposed to that.

For example, in the USA, the Vatican is very insistent that Spanish masses be celebrated in every place where there are Hispanics, because the number of Hispanic Catholics is so large, to the point that the large religious orders are also being told that they have to include Spanish and Hispanic culture in some way in our houses in the USA, if there are Hispanic religious in the house. It makes no difference whether they are American born and speak fluent English. You will always see certain celebrations, holy days, devotions, ministries and masses in Spanish around the country. This is not going away in the USA.

The Vatican has a better view of the USA than we do. We see our neck of the woods. For example a New Yorker sees no further than the Hudson River. A southerner stops looking past New Orleans. People of California don’t know that there are 49 other states and several US colonies. 😃

The Vatican sees that Catholicism in the USA was brought here by Spain and that it never left. It remained localized in the southwest. It came to the East in small numbers until the large immigration from Ireland, Italy and Germany. The Vatican sees the Catholic Church in the USA being predominantly Hispanic and Anglo, because the Spaniards and English dominated the colonization of the Americas. It’s like looking at the USA through the eyes of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
BTW, I just used an American idiom. Those who are not from the U.S., or who are very young (or perhaps very old) or who have lived very sheltered lives would not understand why I said, “Don’t hate us because…” Just in case there is someone who is wondering–a few decades ago, an advertising campaign showed a beautiful woman who said, “Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful.” After that campaign, many Americans started using the phrase in everyday life and saying, *“Don’t hate me because I’m…” * (fill in the blank). We all understand what we’re saying and get the very subtle humor and levity and peacemaking intention of the phrase.

But for someone that doesn’t use American English as their heart language, this phrase might sound confrontational or defiant, and so they would be suspicious and distrustful of me or anyone who used the phrase. Of couse that’s not what I intended to communicate at all!–I was using a “joke” phrase that would actually reduce tension in a room full of Americans in their 30s-60s.

I hope that this real-life illustration this helps you to understand why many Americans prefer their own language when it comes to their faith!
Hi Cat,
I appreciated your argument about the desire for understanding.
I also found the discussion of "don’t be a hater really interesting. I recall the advertising campaign you mentioned.
The saying “don’t hate me because…” seems to have morphed over the years to become “don’t be a hater.” It is now being used to shut down critical analysis and discourse. This might serve as an example of why some are concerned about the way that language inthe mass (and the meanings attached to language) may have shifted without those assisting being aware of such changes. It might point to the benefit of being able to examine the O.F. in the light of the E.F. which might well enrich the ability to more fully assist in either form.
Perhaps the call for increased access to the E.F. this might exemplify the desire by some to seek out older forms of the mass so that they might increase their understanding of and participation in the mass.
At my O.F. vernacular mass, I read along in Spanish in the side by side missal, and there is quite a bit of variance in language for the same mass.
Differences between language between the E.F. vernacular (English in my case) and the O.F. vernacular are even more striking.
I’m one of those people who love languages, and thinking about these things helps me meditate more deeply on the mass.
For those who do not love languages quite so much, it might still be interesting to see the contrasts and to have exposure to older ways of approaching Our Lord through prayer. Perhaps we can think of ways of making this possibility less intimidating for others.
May God bless us all!
 
Relating back to the original topic of the thread and the article posted by the OP, here is an account of some of the issues mentioned by a priest at an Anglican Use parish in Texas. atonementparish.blogspot.com/2007/07/summorum-pontificum.html

Frankly, I am saddened by such behavior and am starting to feel that, unless the attitudes which are leading to this type of behavior are changed, there will be a ceiling coming rather soon in terms of the number of parishes deciding to implement the EF of the Mass. In addition, some pastors who have gone out of their way to learn the Mass and implement it, upon experiencing these types of issues, may decide that it simply is not worth it and stop celebrating the EF all together.
 
Relating back to the original topic of the thread and the article posted by the OP, here is an account of some of the issues mentioned by a priest at an Anglican Use parish in Texas. atonementparish.blogspot.com/2007/07/summorum-pontificum.html

Frankly, I am saddened by such behavior and am starting to feel that, unless the attitudes which are leading to this type of behavior are changed, there will be a ceiling coming rather soon in terms of the number of parishes deciding to implement the EF of the Mass. In addition, some pastors who have gone out of their way to learn the Mass and implement it, upon experiencing these types of issues, may decide that it simply is not worth it and stop celebrating the EF all together.
Not only is the article disappointing, but some of the comments posted below are equally so. Any Traditionalist Catholic who is wondering why there is not greater acceptance of the EF of the Mass would do well to read the article linked by the OP of this thread, as well as the one l linked above to include the comments afterwards.

Peace of Christ,
 
Relating back to the original topic of the thread and the article posted by the OP, here is an account of some of the issues mentioned by a priest at an Anglican Use parish in Texas. atonementparish.blogspot.com/2007/07/summorum-pontificum.html

Frankly, I am saddened by such behavior and am starting to feel that, unless the attitudes which are leading to this type of behavior are changed, there will be a ceiling coming rather soon in terms of the number of parishes deciding to implement the EF of the Mass. In addition, some pastors who have gone out of their way to learn the Mass and implement it, upon experiencing these types of issues, may decide that it simply is not worth it and stop celebrating the EF all together.
Thanks for sharing this other article. It’s just more evidence of how important it is for us to be people of gratitude and joy.
 
Relating back to the original topic of the thread and the article posted by the OP, here is an account of some of the issues mentioned by a priest at an Anglican Use parish in Texas. atonementparish.blogspot.com/2007/07/summorum-pontificum.html

Frankly, I am saddened by such behavior and am starting to feel that, unless the attitudes which are leading to this type of behavior are changed, there will be a ceiling coming rather soon in terms of the number of parishes deciding to implement the EF of the Mass. In addition, some pastors who have gone out of their way to learn the Mass and implement it, upon experiencing these types of issues, may decide that it simply is not worth it and stop celebrating the EF all together.
What a grumpy lot of trads they were, indeed. I’m glad they don’t represent traditional Catholics at large. Everybody at my parish is so cheery, especially with a donut in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other! We attract people from all other the world who love the TLM or want to try it. First-timers always seem to become regulars.
 
What a grumpy lot of trads they were, indeed. I’m glad they don’t represent traditional Catholics at large. Everybody at my parish is so cheery, especially with a donut in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other! We attract people from all other the world who love the TLM or want to try it. First-timers always seem to become regulars.
That’s great to hear! Are you at a parish which celebrates the EF of the Mass exclusively, or is the OF offered as well? In situations where this becomes a problem, the trend seems to be in places where there are multiple forms of the Mass being offered. I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I am getting.

Peace,
 
That’s great to hear! Are you at a parish which celebrates the EF of the Mass exclusively, or is the OF offered as well? In situations where this becomes a problem, the trend seems to be in places where there are multiple forms of the Mass being offered. I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I am getting.

Peace,
Jason,

We have one TLM and three OF every Sunday, its mixed during the week, and we have both on holy days of obligation (but the TLM has the evening slot most people can attend). Since we are in DC’s Chinatown, one of our Sunday OF Masses is in Mandarin. We have a good mix of Low, High, and Solemn Masses, too.

I think the three “communities” with the parish are very distinct, and the Latin Mass folks are the most involved, followed by the Chinese, then the English OF-goers, but I haven’t heard of any conflict. There was no conflict when our pastor had the post-VII (church is 120 y/o) altar removed from the sanctuary floor and put on wheels so it could be tucked away for the TLM. Mostly the EF crowd puts their dollars and time into restoring and beautifying the church and throwing parties, and everyone else benefits so they’re happy.
 
Jason,

We have one TLM and three OF every Sunday, its mixed during the week, and we have both on holy days of obligation (but the TLM has the evening slot most people can attend). Since we are in DC’s Chinatown, one of our Sunday OF Masses is in Mandarin. We have a good mix of Low, High, and Solemn Masses, too.

I think the three “communities” with the parish are very distinct, and the Latin Mass folks are the most involved, followed by the Chinese, then the English OF-goers, but I haven’t heard of any conflict. There was no conflict when our pastor had the post-VII (church is 120 y/o) altar removed from the sanctuary floor and put on wheels so it could be tucked away for the TLM. Mostly the EF crowd puts their dollars and time into restoring and beautifying the church and throwing parties, and everyone else benefits so they’re happy.
Nice! I am glad to hear things are going so well. What are the OF Masses like at the parish? I’m just curious. One of the more beautiful OF Masses I have seen was at a parish where the EF was also offered.

Peace,
 
Jason,

We have one TLM and three OF every Sunday, its mixed during the week, and we have both on holy days of obligation (but the TLM has the evening slot most people can attend). Since we are in DC’s Chinatown, one of our Sunday OF Masses is in Mandarin. We have a good mix of Low, High, and Solemn Masses, too.

I think the three “communities” with the parish are very distinct, and the Latin Mass folks are the most involved, followed by the Chinese, then the English OF-goers, but I haven’t heard of any conflict. There was no conflict when our pastor had the post-VII (church is 120 y/o) altar removed from the sanctuary floor and put on wheels so it could be tucked away for the TLM. Mostly the EF crowd puts their dollars and time into restoring and beautifying the church and throwing parties, and everyone else benefits so they’re happy.
This is a really good post with some great “secrets to success” that I will try to remember in all my life situations. Thank you. 🙂

I have found in life that often, we can accomplish more with honey rather than vinegar (even though vinegar is better for the waistline:)).

It seems to me that both traditional and modern Catholics should attempt to out-do each other, not by having the “best” Mass, but by doing acts of kindness for each other; e.g., beautifying the church and throwing parties! That’s just awesome! It’s very very hard to criticize someone who is doing something nice for you!

And what a witness for Christ to the world–it’s just like Acts 2! The city will not see the conflicts and debates, but rather, will see the love that the Christians, both traditional and modern, have for each other. Beautiful!

Reading your post is a nice way to start my day!
 
Jason,

We have one TLM and three OF every Sunday, its mixed during the week, and we have both on holy days of obligation (but the TLM has the evening slot most people can attend). Since we are in DC’s Chinatown, one of our Sunday OF Masses is in Mandarin. We have a good mix of Low, High, and Solemn Masses, too.

I think the three “communities” with the parish are very distinct, and the Latin Mass folks are the most involved, followed by the Chinese, then the English OF-goers, but I haven’t heard of any conflict. There was no conflict when our pastor had the post-VII (church is 120 y/o) altar removed from the sanctuary floor and put on wheels so it could be tucked away for the TLM. Mostly the EF crowd puts their dollars and time into restoring and beautifying the church and throwing parties, and everyone else benefits so they’re happy.
Rich,

We have both the OF and EF at my parish also, with the EF crowd being more active (we run the once a month all night vigil, coffee hour, a bible study and and we too have mass every evening and on the weekends). I think the pastor is just happy to have very active parishioners and rely on us to help around with big projects and other things around the parish.
 
Rich,

We have both the OF and EF at my parish also, with the EF crowd being more active (we run the once a month all night vigil, coffee hour, a bible study and and we too have mass every evening and on the weekends). I think the pastor is just happy to have very active parishioners and rely on us to help around with big projects and other things around the parish.
It’s good to see that some parishes are able to pull this off well. 👍
 
I haven’t yet seen the problem at EF Masses we’ve attended of there being a lack of people in the pews. We’ve gone in three states (California, Florida and now Michigan) and usually by the time Mass starts it’s standing room only with a packed room (with the exception of our parish here in Michigan because the room is just so big!).

The Mass we attend is at the local Cathedral. There’s an OF Mass going on upstairs and an EF Mass going on downstairs at the same time, and people pour out of both of them. The Mass is about two miles from our house, although we’ve heard the giant church within walking distance that’s less than a mile is about to start offering a EF Mass on Saturday nights as well. People here seem excited.

In actual real life I’ve never seen any conflict… on line is another story entirely. People who are older than us seem curious about why we’d want to go, but not in a hostile way.
 
Nice! I am glad to hear things are going so well. What are the OF Masses like at the parish? I’m just curious. One of the more beautiful OF Masses I have seen was at a parish where the EF was also offered.
Peace,
Honestly, I’ve never been to one so I have no idea. I think the correlation of beautiful OF Masses at parishes with the EF is usually the result of a very liturgically conscious pastor. At our parish, father is really quite laid back, however so I don’t know if the OFs are anything out of the ordinary. The people I’ve met who assist at them are top notch, though.
 
Honestly, I’ve never been to one so I have no idea. I think the correlation of beautiful OF Masses at parishes with the EF is usually the result of a very liturgically conscious pastor. At our parish, father is really quite laid back, however so I don’t know if the OFs are anything special.
We also have to keep in mind that beauty is also subjective. For one person, following with the rubrics is beautiful. Another person my find it, “OK”. A Benedictine thinks beauty when he thinks of the LOTH chanted in Gregorian chant, be it in Chinese or Latin. A Franciscan thinks beauty when he thinks of the LOTH being recited, be in Chine or Latin. The recitation, may not be beautiful to the Benedictine, but it’s beautiful to the Franciscan, because it reminds him of the Franciscan founders, Clare and Francis.

Move it over the the Liturgy of the mass and the same thing can happen. A very austere Ordinary Form mass, that follows all of the rubrics, without the “creativity” is very beautiful to many people. To others, they prefer chant, incense, many candles, rich vestments and maybe a very specific environment. That’s why I don’t really get too excited when people say that the mass was not beautiful, it often depends on taste and expectations.

Personally, I like the pomp and circumstance and I also like the austere and the bare bones. I find both very beautiful. I’m the type who does not like the middle between the EF High Mass and the bare bones OF. I’m for either austere or majestic. But that’s me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
We also have to keep in mind that beauty is also subjective. For one person, following with the rubrics is beautiful. Another person my find it, “OK”. A Benedictine thinks beauty when he thinks of the LOTH chanted in Gregorian chant, be it in Chinese or Latin. A Franciscan thinks beauty when he thinks of the LOTH being recited, be in Chine or Latin. The recitation, may not be beautiful to the Benedictine, but it’s beautiful to the Franciscan, because it reminds him of the Franciscan founders, Clare and Francis.

Move it over the the Liturgy of the mass and the same thing can happen. A very austere Ordinary Form mass, that follows all of the rubrics, without the “creativity” is very beautiful to many people. To others, they prefer chant, incense, many candles, rich vestments and maybe a very specific environment. That’s why I don’t really get too excited when people say that the mass was not beautiful, it often depends on taste and expectations.

Personally, I like the pomp and circumstance and I also like the austere and the bare bones. I find both very beautiful. I’m the type who does not like the middle between the EF High Mass and the bare bones OF. I’m for either austere or majestic. But that’s me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Good point, general. It’s one reason the beauty of the EF Mass (or the use of Latin, for that matter) is not the first or most important thing I tell people about it when I share.

Btw, I also am drawn to liturgical “extremes,” if you will. I love Solemn Mass and “quiet” Low Masses the best. When I occasionaly assist at the OF, I like the austere ones best, I think of it as “Low-er Mass.” 😉
 
Btw, I also am drawn to liturgical “extremes,” if you will. I love Solemn Mass and “quiet” Low Masses the best. When I occasionaly assist at the OF, I like the austere ones best, I think of it as “Low-er Mass.” 😉
I really like your description of the bolded. When you put it that way, it gives a good reason as why to why people such as yourself would still attend the OF, and explains why people like myself actually prefer it.

I’ve only gone to EF High Masses before, I imagine I’d probably prefer the Low Mass if I went.
 
I’ve only gone to EF High Masses before, I imagine I’d probably prefer the Low Mass if I went.
Low, lower, and lowest too, I presume?

Strange depictions of the Mass is all I can say from you and Rich C.

Only proves my point about misunderstandings of familiar words.
 
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