The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

[Seamus_L]

The important thing for now, is to support the Latin Masses we do have. My experience has been that we have an unbelievable number of Catholics who still don’t know the Latin Mass is even available. These are the people we need to keep inviting.
I thought parts of the article were good, while others weren't so good. My simplistic bottomline has always been that unless you're a Latin Masser, you really won't understand us.

 

[JReducation]

The important thing for now, is to support the Latin Masses we do have. My experience has been that we have an unbelievable number of Catholics who still don’t know the Latin Mass is even available. These are the people we need to keep inviting.

                  I thought parts of the article were good, while others weren't so good. My simplistic bottomline has always been that unless you're a Latin Masser, you really won't understand us.

The red is mine. We have to be very careful not to create another group here. There are natural groupings that form for many reasons. That’s obvious. But let’s avoid using such terms, if at all possible, because it only complicates things.

I have seen how some diocese have incorporated the EF and it’s very well done. In our own diocese, the Archbishop has celebrated it. This gave people a sense of “It’s OK. This is not some fringe movement thing.” The result has been that some diocesan priests have started to celebrate it on a regular basis in those parishes where they can fit it into their schedule. Obviously, if the priest already has two masses on Sunday and they’re packed, he can’t change one to an Ef. That’s not allowed. But there are parishes where they have less masses on Sunday and it was possible and there were priests who were willing to celebrate it.

The beauty of it around here has been that the people who attend it come from different places around the Archdiocese, but they don’t make a big deal about it. No one’s feathers are ruffled. They come, attend mass, has their coffee and donuts and go on with the rest of their week. Most are very involved in different parish ministries and diocesan ministries.

In other words, there is no attempt to recruit people to attend and no attempt to market the EF. People find out about it through different means. I was one of those means, when I announced it a a diocesan synod that it was available at certain parishes for those who wanted to attend. I did it in a very low key manner and it took all of 30 seconds. The people who were there that attend the EF were grateful that I remembered to announce it at the synod and those who are not attracted to it were grateful that I did not make a big display of it as if it were the best thing since the Last Supper.

I find that in a diocese such as our own, where we have a very large number of male religious with their own forms of the mass or their own rites, and where we have strong divisions among people about very important issues: abortion, HHS Mandate, same-sex marriage, immigration, cultures and generational difference, we don’t need to add one more point of contention to the list.

The form of the mass has to be presented in a very matter-of-fact form. It’s there. It’s part of our Catholic heritage. All diocesan priests who have the time and the desire can celebrate it. All priests who are consecrated religious should check with their major superiors. Laymen who would like to have it, can request it of the pastor if the parish is run by diocesan priests or contact the major superior if the parish is run by regular priests. Then we move on.

Words like Traditonalists, Latin Massers, the Old Mass, Novus Ordo Mass, or TLM are not used by the local Church. We’re very specific. It’s either the EF and OF or the Tridentine Form, the Revised Form, or the N [insert religious order] Form. Even then, these are not terms that are part of daily conversation even among those who prefer the EF. They’re just the terms that are used when there is an announcement or an invitation.

The result is a rather peaceful co-existence in those parishes that have both masses as well as those ministries where people who attend both forms serve. I work with more than 60 volunteers in Respect Life Ministry. Many are regular attendees at the EF. That never comes up in our work for the unborn. It may come up in casual conversation where someone asks. But no one makes it a point to recruit or to discourage. My rule is that it’s not a point of argument. It is what it is. We have several forms, but in this ministry, the form of the mass is not important. The lives of the unborn are important. Whatever mass you attend, keep them, their family and their healthcare providers in prayer.

When it’s my turn to lead prayer, sometimes I do it in Creole, Spanish, English or Latin. No one knows what I’m going to do. Our beloved archbishop does the same. He speaks one language in the morning and another in the afternoon. We are very blessed, because more than 80% of our religious and about 70% of our priests speak several languages, including Latin. Well, correction. I don’t think any of us can carry on a conversation in Latin for more than five minutes. But we understand it and we can use it for prayer.

I wouldn’t know how to order my favorite pizza in Latin. Did they even have pizza in Ancient Rome?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[LilyM]

The Benedictines are also very unique as they don’t truly form one order. There are many congregations and houses within them. It would be difficult for them to have an official language.

Other communities that have a central government, even though they’re international often have on official language. For example, the official language of the Franciscans is English, because the English speakers make up the largest number. Once upon a time, it was Italian. At a large congress, everything is in English, including the mass and the LOTH.

That would be silly. If one attends a WYD the mass is always in Latin and the homily is in the host language.

I don’t think that he’s using more Latin than his predecessors. Maybe we’re paying closer attention or maybe because more masses are not on TV. But Paul VI celebrated mass in Latin when he came to the USA. John Paul II always celebrated mass in Latin as does Benedict XVI. The readings are in modern languages.

I’m not sure that they are subjectively culpable of grave sin. We can’t judge an individual’s degree of culpability without speaking with him or her. However, objectively, this kind of behavior reduces the significance of Christ’s sacrifice to rubrics and form. That can certainly be a sign of ignorance.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Brother, by grave sin I meant sin whose matter is objectively grave, I was not using the term as a synonym for mortal sin.

 

[JReducation]

Brother, by grave sin I meant sin whose matter is objectively grave, I was not using the term as a synonym for mortal sin.

I gotcha’ now. Thanks

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Seamus_L]

Well Brother, sometimes we just can’t help things from being complicated. The conversation with your Catholic neighbor where you have to explain that you really don’t have much contact with the parish down the street, because you go elsewhere so you can attend the EF. The astonished look’s I get on occasion from people who still think the EF was permanently abolished. The explanation’s we sometimes have to give regarding how we were unable to attend the noon EF on a Holy Day during the week at a church several miles from home and then had to drive even further to attend it at church that had it 7pm. These aren’t topics we bring up just to create controversy. If it’s any consolation though, when I invite people to attend the EF, I simply leave it at “You just have to experience the EF with a choir.”

 

[gus]

Where I live the nearest EF mess is 50 miles away.
I drive 8 miles to get to the nearest OF Mass.
I.am thankful for that.
The Mass when we participate fully is the greatest gift we have regardless of language.

I’m a traditionally minded individual who would attend a Latin Mass. If I could. I still have my 1962 missal.
But 50 miles is not available.
PS Latin spoken and read as the common language of intellectuals and scientists gave Western Europe a big advantage of the rest of the world.
It allowed for rapid exchange of ideas.
I was amazed even in Westminster Abbey. Inscriptions were in Latin.

 

[Rich_C]

Where I live the nearest EF mess is 50 miles away.
I drive 8 miles to get to the nearest OF Mass.
I.am thankful for that.
The Mass when we participate fully is the greatest gift we have regardless of language./

Absolutely, but remember that the main difference between the two forms is not the language. A Latin-language OF does not an EF make.

I’m a traditionally minded individual who would attend a Latin Mass. If I could. I still have my 1962 missal.
But 50 miles is not available.

I agree, so I keep praying my rosaries for more EF Masses. In the meantime I drive 35 miles each way past about 35 OF-only parishes to get to the EF Mass. I know people who drive 120 miles. I know one who used to drive 700 miles each way on occasion to find one.

Catholics will do what they can.

 

[Denise1957]

The important thing for now, is to support the Latin Masses we do have. My experience has been that we have an unbelievable number of Catholics who still don’t know the Latin Mass is even available. These are the people we need to keep inviting.

                  I thought parts of the article were good, while others weren't so good. My simplistic bottomline has always been that unless you're a Latin Masser, you really won't understand us.

I agree that those of us who are attached to the TLM will not be understood by those who aren’t. And we have to be able to take it on the chin (verbally speaking) by those here on the traditional subforum who don’t want to see an increase in TLM’s offered around the world. But that’s okay. I guess it’s a good exercise learning how to be charitable, in having to continually defend why we care about the TLM! (charity not being easy for me, but I’m trying)

 

[OraLabora]

I was amazed even in Westminster Abbey. Inscriptions were in Latin.

And they would be, as Westminster Abbey was a Catholic Benedictine abbey until the Reformation.

 

[JReducation]

Well Brother, sometimes we just can’t help things from being complicated. The conversation with your Catholic neighbor where you have to explain that you really don’t have much contact with the parish down the street, because you go elsewhere so you can attend the EF.

Let’s begin here. It is one thing to go across town to attend the EF and quite another to shun the local parish by not participating in its ministries or parish activities. In fact, that’s one of the nice things that the priests who celebrate the EF down here do. They do not have any activities or ministries separate from the rest of the parish. You can attend the EF mass at 10:00 and you have no other choice to but use the parish’s religious education program. There is no alternative, nor will these priests consider it. That’s just an example.

I can see how things become complicated when you tell your neighbor who attends St. John’s parish that you are shunning his parish. It is quite another thing to say that you attend St. Mary’s because there is no EF at St. John’s, but there is one at St. Mary’s. That’s a reality. That’s not a put down. If the neighbor wants to interpret it as an insult, he’s being too sensitive. To say that I will have nothing to do with this parish, to the face of a parishioner is certainly rude.

The astonished look’s I get on occasion from people who still think the EF was permanently abolished.

That’s normal and it does not have to be complicated. It can be a simple teaching moment. When I get that look my answer takes all of 45 seconds. “The Tridentine form of the mass, which many people call the old mass is still allowed. Many people mistakenly thought it was forbidden. By the way, how is your father feeling today?” That’s it.

The explanation’s we sometimes have to give regarding how we were unable to attend the noon EF on a Holy Day during the week at a church several miles from home and then had to drive even further to attend it at church that had it 7pm.

This begs the question, why does one have to give such explanations? A few weeks ago someone asked me if one of our brothers who loves the celebrate the EF could do so for a large group of people. I simply said, “I’m sorry, but that’s not going to be possible.” Immediately I got back, “But Brother, why not?” “It’s just not. Excuse me. I have to attend to some things. Have a nice evening.” I went to take the dog for a walk.

On the flip side, when people became upset because we celebrated the feast of St. Maximilian Kolbe using the EF, which meant that we had to pull pieces from the Roman-Franciscan Missal, in Latin, again we got questions. The brothers’ simply said, “The person you want to ask if Father Superior.” Those who came to me and said that this or that is not in the 1962 missal, I simply said, “I know. It’s a real problem. I can’t wait until they get the two calendars harmonized. By the way, are you going to the Flea Market at the parish?”

And we have to be able to take it on the chin (verbally speaking) by those here on the traditional subforum who don’t want to see an increase in TLM’s offered around the world.

First of all, I don’t think that anyone has to defend why he or she cares about a point of the faith. It is one thing to defend the faith from misrepresentation and another to justify oneself. One need never feel that one has to justify himself, if he is being faithful.

Second, I am no so sure that what you’re seeing is a resistance to having more EF masses. I think that what we’re all seeing is a resistance to language. Fulton Sheen once said that more people disagreed with what they thought the Catholic Church is than with that Catholic Church itself or something like that. You get my meaning.

Sometimes, the way that the language is used, it comes across as if the EF is the only option for Catholics. I see this especially the moment someone complains about something wrong in his parish. It never fails that if there is a Trad in the house, he or she will say, “Find the nearest TLM,” rather than, “Let’s look at the problem and let’s see how you can help to fix it, it is a real problem.” That, “Run to the nearest TLM” is going to create a resistance. It comes across the wrong way.

Another example of language is an expression as “the TLM produced great saints”. That’s not true. Men and women became great saints because they cooperated with grace. God has not stopped pouring grace upon his people. Whenever the mass is celebrated there is an abundance of grace. When we receive the sacraments as we should, there is an abundance of sanctifying grace. If this statement were true, the people like John Paul II and Mother Theresa of Calcutta would not have made it to beatification. Someone like Giana Molla would not have made it to canonization.

We have to think of the resistance this way. If I push you, you’re going to exert force toward me to keep from falling. If I pull you, you’re going to exert force away from me. When we use language that is interpreted as forceful or that is deliberately forceful, it’s going to be met with counterforce.

We need not justify ourselves. We need to defend the faith from misrepresentation. We need to explain that the EF is allowed and where it can be found, if one wishes to attend and we need refrain from language that diminishes the OF and from suggestions that there is no hope for a parish that offers the OF. We can help people identify real problems and solutions. We can also help people see that they are over reacting too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Denise1957]

We need not justify ourselves. We need to defend the faith from misrepresentation. We need to explain that the EF is allowed and where it can be found, if one wishes to attend and we need refrain from language that diminishes the OF and from suggestions that there is no hope for a parish that offers the OF. We can help people identify real problems and solutions. We can also help people see that they are over reacting too.

I don’t think that it’s about justifying ourselves. It’s not ourselves which really needs justification, but that legitimate expression of the Catholic Faith which is allowed by Church Law and the Popes, which is the Extraordinary Form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

And I have not diminished the OF. There are those who are attatched to the EF who diminish the OF. And those who are attached to the OF who diminish the EF. Such is human nature. I don’t think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with the OF, and I would certainly not want to judge the OF based on those who attend and prefer it, even when they diminish the EF. The OF has intrinsic value in itself, a value which is not diminished by the prejudices of those who attend it. Likewise, the Extraordinary Form is not diminished just because some who prefer it diminish the OF. It, too, has intrinsic value which rises above that of the prejudices of those who prefer it.

Perhaps a goal could possibly be to try to rise above any fears that people might have regarding either form.

 

[gus]

And they would be, as Westminster Abbey was a Catholic Benedictine abbey until the Reformation.

I talking about 20th century additions

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think that it’s about justifying ourselves. It’s not ourselves which really needs justification, but that legitimate expression of the Catholic Faith which is allowed by Church Law and the Popes, which is the Extraordinary Form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

And I have not diminished the OF. There are those who are attatched to the EF who diminish the OF. And those who are attached to the OF who diminish the EF. Such is human nature. I don’t think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with the OF, and I would certainly not want to judge the OF based on those who attend and prefer it, even when they diminish the EF. The OF has intrinsic value in itself, a value which is not diminished by the prejudices of those who attend it. Likewise, the Extraordinary Form is not diminished just because some who prefer it diminish the OF. It, too, has intrinsic value which rises above that of the prejudices of those who prefer it.

Perhaps a goal could possibly be to try to rise above any fears that people might have regarding either form.

First, when I use the pronoun you, I don’t mean you personally. I hope you didn’t get that impression.

Second, I think you have hit the nail on the head in your last sentence. People are full of fears. Some are legitimate and some are irrational. We have to help people overcome the irrational fears and deal with the problems that trigger legitimate fears.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Denise1957]

Second, I think you have hit the nail on the head in your last sentence. People are full of fears. Some are legitimate and some are irrational. We have to help people overcome the irrational fears and deal with the problems that trigger legitimate fears.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

What reasons would there be to want to help others overcome irrational fears? Or to put it another way, what should our motivation be, in your view, in wanting to help others overcome fears?

 

[Corki]

Where I live the nearest EF mess is 50 miles away.
I drive 8 miles to get to the nearest OF Mass.
I.am thankful for that.
The Mass when we participate fully is the greatest gift we have regardless of language.

I’m a traditionally minded individual who would attend a Latin Mass. If I could. I still have my 1962 missal.
But 50 miles is not available.
PS Latin spoken and read as the common language of intellectuals and scientists gave Western Europe a big advantage of the rest of the world.
It allowed for rapid exchange of ideas.
I was amazed even in Westminster Abbey. Inscriptions were in Latin.

I think this is really important. The article in the OP seemed to downplay the attraction of the EF based on attendance. “all these people said they wanted an EF but only a third of them are at Mass” If it’s anything like our diocese, it may be that the all the people are going but they aren’t all going to the EF every week.

My drive isn’t as far as yours. When we had the EF on our side of the diocese, it was still a 50 minute drive. It was one Mass on the schedule of a regular geographic parish. Living so far, we would not have been considered members of that parish. Even if we were, it is so far that our involvement there other than on Sunday would have been minimal.

But going to Mass there every week would mean that my kids couldn’t go to CCE at our “home” parish since CCE is on Sundays. We might have been able to enroll them in CCE at a third parish where our only contact would have been classtime but then we would have another dilema when it came time to receive their Sacraments for the first time. We would have been transients, dividing our Catholic participation between three parishes. So we usually went to our home parish for Mass and CCE and occassionally went to the EF on weeks with no CCE (while the EF lasted).

The Motu Propio mentioned the possibility of erecting parishes that would be “all OF”. It wouldn’t solve the distance problem but it would give those who prefer the OF with a full parish community for Mass AND everything else instead of being divided between multiple parishes. Our diocese recently invited the FSSP in and they are building a Church eventurally that will have that character.

 

[JReducation]

What reasons would there be to want to help others overcome irrational fears? Or to put it another way, what should our motivation be, in your view, in wanting to help others overcome fears?

First of all, people who have irrational fears suffer. I would never knowingly allow someone to suffer, if I can do something to alleviate the suffering.

Second, people with irrational fears tend to be reactive rather than pro-active. Not only do they suffer, but they inflict suffering on others as a means of protecting themselves. Now we have a situation in which pain is deflected and affects others.

Third, part of our vocation to holiness is to console the afflicted. Fear is definitely an affliction and one that can spread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TimothyH]

No one I know is afraid of the Mass in any of it’s forms. What they are afraid of is the attitude of people.

"I drive 35 miles past ten OF Masses to get an EF Mass."

That may sound like a benign statement to the person saying it, just a statement of fact or an expression of personal preference, but it is not. It is not a statement of preference, but a comparison. It is a condescending attitude and an insult.

I know many people who would love to go to the nearby FSSP parish to see the OF but they have been completely turned off by statements like this. I don’t think many understand how smug statements like that sound.

It’s not an irrational fear of the Mass but a rational fear of people’s attitudes. They want no part in a “Your Mass is the ghetto Mass” culture - real or imagined - and statments like that come across exactly that way.

-Tim-

 

[marcvsthebard]

That may sound like a benign statement to the person saying it, just a statement of fact or an expression of personal preference, but it is not. It is not a statement of preference, but a comparison. It is a condescending attitude and an insult.

Rubbish. Many of us travel long distances to attend the EF. The Mass of the Ages is worth every mile. What we endured in the OF from the 1970s through the 1990s proved that to us without reservation. The only condescension here is your own.

 

[Melchior_1]

Rubbish. Many of us travel long distances to attend the EF. The Mass of the Ages is worth every mile. What we endured in the OF from the 1970s through the 1990s proved that to us without reservation. The only condescension here is your own.

You’re sort of proving Timothy’s point though, as you’re coming across incredibly hostile right now.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Rubbish. Many of us travel long distances to attend the EF. The Mass of the Ages is worth every mile. What we endured in the OF from the 1970s through the 1990s proved that to us without reservation. The only condescension here is your own.

But this exactly shows what the other statement is a shorthand for. The Mass is the Mass. You may not have liked the music, the homilies, or the priest’s vestments, but the Mass was still heaven on earth and full of grace.

If there was something like using triscuits as communion bread going on than someone needed to notify the bishop (and then Rome if the bishop thought that was fine). However, at your ordinary parish, even in 1968, the Eucharistic Miracle happened every Sunday - just amid felt banners and green ponch chasbules.

Yes, I know that the prayers and priest’s actions are different between the EF and OF. But, to paraphrase Mother Teresa, “We have to see Christ in all his distressing diguises.”

So yes, I want to see the EF celebrated more widely. And I do pray that it will be. But I also beleive that someone driving 50 miles to an EF is losing something very special in the community of fellow Catholics.