The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

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Thanks O.P. for sharing such an insightful link. I especially appreciated the ideas about actions we might take to encourage the availability of the Latin Mass and support priests as they work to make this more accessible.
I found JRKH’s idea of a poll to gauge interest appealing as it spoke to my own experience as one who was born just after Vatican II and who is delighted to have ‘found’ the Latin mass a few years ago.
You have to experience it to discover its appeal. If people do not know about it and do not see it as an option, there is less likelihood that they will ask for it (demand in the original essay).
For me, discovery of the mass created the demand. I wonder how many other post Vatican II Catholics would be inclined to assist at and* demand* the Latin mass if they they could just get a taste of it. Exposure seems to me to be the place to start and a poll is a good way to introduce the existence of this mass.
In such a poll I would have expressed interest in having such a mass available because of my curiosity.
The Following from JRKH’s post resonate with my own experience:
JRKH said:
Lily,
Agree with you and Joe on this but I have to say that I still think that there would be an advantage to it.
  1. It would gauge actual interest, even if just “curiosity” (some of which could be easily delineated on the poll card).
  2. The level of interest expressed would give the bishop and idea where the greatest interest is concentrated.
  3. Many - I dare say most Catholics are a) not aware of the moto proprio (sp?) and/or b) have never had the opportunity to partake of the EF…it appears that few diocese have asked or offered or promoted the EF as an option.
  4. number three above means that there could well be those would go a couple of times and then stop…but it also means there are probably those who never thought about but would be “blown away” by it and become regulars…
Just some thoughts…

While I never expect there to be a tremendously large demand for the EF, I also think that the actual demand has not been adequately evaluated and worse…many who would benefit greatly from the EF don’t even know it because they have never been exposed.

This idea of “demand” is, to me little more than an excuse and here is why…
In modern marketing demand is created. How many “demanded” video games before they were widely offered? how about cell phones, ipads, etc etc etc…

Now I don’t mean that the mass should be “marketed”, but when I mention EF to most people they look at me like I’m an ET. They haven’t even heard the term "Extraordinary form. Say “Latin mass”, or TLM and the defenses go up and they say, "no one in our parish is interested…
My question is - How do they know that if nobody ASKED???
If they haven’t even heard of the possibility??

This is really my main gripe - this “come back” that I have heard over and over…“Nobody wants it here”…But nobody can show me the polling numbers to back up there assertion…🤷…Besides which, I’m a member of the parish and I would like to see an EF occasionally celebrated at our church…So that disproves their assertion on the face of it…😃

So the bottom line for me is that the actual interest - the demand - has never been determined…

Peace
James
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My diocese does not offer it at all, and it is a pretty good size one. I wrote to the diocesan bishop, and he claimed there was not enough interest among other reasons. Seems to be some interest as there is an SSPX and an Independent Roman Catholic Church that offer TLM in our diocesan area.

The diocese next to ours has several parishes that offer the OF at least on Sundays, sometimes other days including Holy Days, and 1 parish that specializes in the EF only. The bishop there is very supportive of the EF Mass, and in fact has celebrated it himself a few times plus has administered Confirmation in the EF also. I did write and thank him for his support of the EF, and he wrote me a beautiful thank you card back.
 
I sincerely like his assessment of the situation. There was another point that he mentioned and I did not see it addressed as I read through the posts. I believe it’s a very important point. He said, “Lose the attitude.”

Allow me to explain where I’m coming from. I consider myself a lover of tradition. For example, I love my Franciscan tradition. When we embarked on carving out a new Franciscan community, the Franciscans of Life, one of the concerns that I had was that we return to the sources. I kept saying that unless we went back to the 13th century, we would not be able to go forward with the new community. The same has been said by the Franciscans of the Renewal, the Franciscan Brothers Minor, the Franciscans of the Immaculate, the Franciscans of Peace and several other traditional Franciscan communities that have emerged in the last 25 years.

I bring up the Franciscan renewal that is taking place, because it’s a wonderful example of what the writer was saying about attitudes. One of the reasons that the renewal is working is the absence of attitudes. Those of us who are going back to the 13th century and examining Francis, the rule and the early brothers have never said or written a single negative word about the Franciscan family today or the post-conciliar Franciscans. It is what it is and we accept it. We respect it, because it creates a space in the Franciscan family for those who need a more contemporary expression of Francis’spirit and of the Gospel Life. If it’s allowed by the Church, it’s not up to us to say that it’s wrong…

Here is the key, which I believe is missing in the Trad movement. We believe that God is calling us back to the basics. We do not believe that God is calling everyone back. Therefore, we don’t hold others to the same standards as we do for ourselves. This has helped carve out more than 10 new Franciscan communities in the USA alone, without conflict and without resentment. We don’t believe for a second that our recovery of the Franciscan tradition, as revealed by Christ to Francis is superior to what it became after Vatican II. The liturgy is the liturgy. A friar is a friar. Modern day friars like Gregorian chant. Gregorian chant was banned from the Franciscan family by St.Clare and St. Francis for 800 years. In 1970, the Church said that it was optional for us. Some people jumped on it, because it was new.

This is where I’m going. The blogger mentioned several cases of enthusiastic priests who stopped celebrating the EF because of what I call “self-appointed liturgists”. This is a real problem. I have been called on the carpet by some, because they believe that I hate Traditionalists. The fact is that I do not. I hate attitudes, rudeness, sarcasm, and bullying. Just as I see no need for me to be critical of my brother Franciscans who wish to introduce Gregorian chant, I see no need to be critical of my brother Catholics who do not wish to attend an EF, or priests who do not wish to celebrate it. The Church said they can choose. That’s good enough for me.

There is a reason why the Holy Father refers to the Tridentine form as “extraordinary”. It is no longer the norm. Therefore, it’s no longer binding on laity or clergy to use it. It continues to be a very beautiful form. It certainly has a place in our Catholic culture. It should not be allowed to get lost. I would even say that it MUST be preserved.

Constant griping is counterproductive. While one wants the EF in order to grow in holiness, one can often lack of charity and respect for the dignity of others. There is a Traditionalist forum that I often visit, because it has an excellent library. I admire the person or people who put it together. They did good work. However, I have read some posts and I’m left stunned at vulgarity, crudeness, disrespect, name calling, judging the spiritual state of others and more. I recently read a post where the individual referred to a priest as a piece of human feces, in the name of Catholicism.

Diocesan priests who run up against such attitudes shy away from the Traditionalists. Superiors, such as me, have very serious reservations about allowing our priests to celebrate the EF for the laity, because we don’t want to deal with the aftermath, if it is not picture perfect. I took a beating from a group because I gave one our brothers permission to celebrate the EF for the feast of St. Maximilian Kolbe. St. Maximilian is the patron of the Franciscans of Life. He’s not on the old calendar. We had to make some modifications. We borrowed the Latin graduals and collect from the OF, the readings and the modification to the Canon, which Franciscans have done since the time of St. Pius V. We have never used the Canon as St. Pius promulgated it. We resisted that Canon and he allowed us to use our own. That’s a story for another day. The point is that I was sorry I gave the permission. What should have been one of the most special days of the year for us was a nightmare for me. I was called everything from Modernist to Freemason To be honest, I can’t imagine either celebrating the life of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

My point is that attitudes do matter. I have a brother who is a priest and he loves the EF. He is also the most humble human being I know. If I say that he can’t do it, because it’s going to rain, he’ll smile and say, “Thank you Father.” He’s the kind of person that one wants to please. He understands that he has to follow the current calendar, because we can’t have one community operating out of two calendars. There are no ember days and no octave of this or that. He’s very accepting of that. He places the unity of the community over the calendar, no attitude. Therefore, everyone wants to find a way to make things happen for him. It really works.

Fraternally,

Br. JR,FFV 🙂
 
Great stuff Brother JR. Thanks for sharing those issues and putting them in context. I agree with your analysis.

Peace,
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I am hardly an “EF hater”, but there ARE many reverant, orthodox OF Masses all over the states. In fact, I understand that the Aggies right there in TX have some very wonderful OF Masses. And “back home in Maryland” you are right next door to many, many beautiful OF Masses in Arlington.
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In all fairness, there ARE many places with no reverent, orthodox Masses within an easy drive. Such places do exist, unless we assume that sw85* and many others are lying. I myself have been in many places where it took a lot of searching and driving to find one, and I’m sure not everyone is so fortunate.

My point is, I have seen many posters here treated like dissenters for admitting that their spiritual lives are suffering because of the awful quality of the Masses at which they’re force to assist. Can’t we show some sympathy, instead of telling them they are the problem for not being happy with whatever they’re given? The problem is the state of the Church. It hurts good Catholics. The victim-blaming I’ve seen sounds like an attempt to keep one’s head in the sand.
Mrs_Sally said:
I think on both sides we need to be more charitable about these issues and come together to make things better, rather than using our energy in debabting each other.
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For my part, I’ll try to be more charitable, myself. I have a temper sometimes.
  • I know for a fact he lived 2 hours from the Arlington Diocese, each way.
 
Rich_C said:
In all fairness, there ARE many places with no reverent, orthodox Masses within an easy drive. Such places do exist, unless we assume that sw85* and many others are lying. I myself have been in many places where it took a lot of searching and driving to find one, and I’m sure not everyone is so fortunate.

My point is, I have seen many posters here treated like dissenters for admitting that their spiritual lives are suffering because of the awful quality of the Masses at which they’re force to assist. Can’t we show some sympathy, instead of telling them they are the problem for not being happy with whatever they’re given? The problem is the state of the Church. It hurts good Catholics. The victim-blaming I’ve seen sounds like an attempt to keep one’s head in the sand.

For my part, I’ll try to be more charitable, myself. I have a temper sometimes.
  • I know for a fact he lived 2 hours from the Arlington Diocese, each way.
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In reading Brother JR’s post and this one, I think we can see a syntehsis/balance emerging that is both wise and practical. Both POV’s (Brother JR’s and Rich C’s) are legitimate observations and recommendations based on solidly Catholic criteria: I think the two both can and should be harmonised, and that this would result in a lot of good and general increase in Catholic concord.
 
In this regard, I sympathize with adherents of the Latin Mass. For those of us who want the full and true expression of the Byzantine faith, it is the same thing trying to get that from a parish where parishioners are there not because of the Byzantine tradition, but rather because of their ethnic and cultural identity. To get them to change things to conform to Byantine tradition is really an uphill battle. A hill with a 89-degree incline. The most “Orthodox” of Eastern Catholic parishes are those built from the ground up and you have people there who are there because they want Byzantine spirituality, not because of their ethnicity.

The same goes for Latin Mass. Change is hard for everyone and it is you against a greater group of people who has more influence and financial support to the parish to be disregarded.
 
I travel a lot for work and there is no way I was going to learn all the responses in 6 languages. So I seek out EF masses, and it they’re not available, then I’ll go to latin OF.

So yeah, Latin is the most convenient language. I learned the responses in Latin, and am able to go to any (Latin) mass in the world and PARTICIPATE.
 
ConstantineTG said:
In this regard, I sympathize with adherents of the Latin Mass. For those of us who want the full and true expression of the Byzantine faith, it is the same thing trying to get that from a parish where parishioners are there not because of the Byzantine tradition, but rather because of their ethnic and cultural identity. To get them to change things to conform to Byantine tradition is really an uphill battle. A hill with a 89-degree incline. The most “Orthodox” of Eastern Catholic parishes are those built from the ground up and you have people there who are there because they want Byzantine spirituality, not because of their ethnicity.

The same goes for Latin Mass. Change is hard for everyone and it is you against a greater group of people who has more influence and financial support to the parish to be disregarded.
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Yes, the cultural Catholics.
“I’m Catholic because my family is Catholic from way back, and my mother was married in this Church so I want to be married here to”.
But you don’t attend Mass.
“Well the music is so stodgy and the Catholic rules are BS, so I don’t go to Mass. But I go to “The Chapel”, they have good music and video and coffee after every Mass, the divorced people are welcome there. I’m a good person I just don’t believe in all the rules.”
Then why would you want to get married in the Catholic Church?
"My mother was married here in 1965 and there’s no reason I can’t be married here too. "
 
Wow…what a great article (the OP)!

The author does an excellent job of describing the situation at it is now with the TLM. He well-describes the ‘numbers issue,’ and why numbers are an important factor. He also emphasizes that we have to lose the “attitude.” Oh so true! Not that everyone or even most who love the TLM have an attitude problem, but I’ve been convinced for quite some time that charity and humility are necessary in order for the TLM to be more available (even though I’m still working on being charitable myself).

I wasn’t aware, before reading the article, that seminaries in the U.S. are actually training the seminarians to celebrate the EF. That’s awesome! It means that within the next 5-10 years, we’ll have more priests who can offer it. We’ll just have to be more patient.

I like what the author says here regarding how the Holy Father himself views the situation:

“In the meantime, the Holy Father does not wish the Traditional Mass to be the exclusive domain of specially-created parishes, but ultimately a component of the worship life of all Roman Rite parishes. In the larger context, he envisions the Traditional Mass as the spearhead of the eventual counter-reform of the Roman Rite, whatever set of books are used.
We keep forgetting this part of his plan, don’t we?”

I like what he stated here as well:

“Every major reform of the Church began in two ways; from among the laity, and through personal reform. We must, at the end of the day, be the solution within ourselves that we seek from others. In so doing, let us pursue our cause with joy, in the genuine Christian sense of the word, with the knowledge that God is still in charge of earthly events and that the Evil One shall never prevail over the Church that was established by His Son, under whose guidance we offer the Eternal Sacrifice, and follow the cross on our procession to Heaven.”
 
Dies_Irae said:
I travel a lot for work and there is no way I was going to learn all the responses in 6 languages. So I seek out EF masses, and it they’re not available, then I’ll go to latin OF.

So yeah, Latin is the most convenient language. I learned the responses in Latin, and am able to go to any (Latin) mass in the world and PARTICIPATE.
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That’s one advantage of Latin. I used to travel a lot as well. However I’m bilingual so I can get by in French or Latin, and can generally muddle through in Italian, Spanish or Portuguese at least for the Mass. To understanding, those languages are no more nor no less comprehensible than Latin.

I used to go to Seoul a lot on business. There was an International church there run by some local Franciscans, and they had Mass in several languages every Sunday (alas, not in Latin that I could tell).

I’m on the organizing committee for the next World Oblate’s Congress in Rome and we decided that all liturgies (OF) would be in Latin, based on the experiences of past congresses being in a different language each day. I’m all for Latin in such circumstances (heck I’m all for Latin at the parish level too, but I’m also realistic).
 
OraLabora said:
I’m on the organizing committee for the next World Oblate’s Congress in Rome…
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That is incredibly cool.

If you don’t mind, perhaps you could share some of your experiences on one of the Benedictine threads we have going when you have the time.

Peace,
 
jwinch2 said:
That is incredibly cool.

If you don’t mind, perhaps you could share some of your experiences on one of the Benedictine threads we have going when you have the time.

Peace,
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To whet your appetite until I have a bit more time on my hands 😉

benedictine-oblates.org/2013-en.php

You can also link back to the two previous congresses from there (I attended both, first as a delegate and second as national representative for French Canada).

And here’s the two international consultation group meetings. You can see my picture in there somewhere. I’m not telling where 😉

benedictine-oblates.org/cons-en.php

You’ll get some idea about the theme of the next congress.
 
OraLabora said:
To whet your appetite until I have a bit more time on my hands 😉

benedictine-oblates.org/2013-en.php

You can also link back to the two previous congresses from there (I attended both, first as a delegate and second as national representative for French Canada).

And here’s the two international consultation group meetings. You can see my picture in there somewhere. I’m not telling where 😉

benedictine-oblates.org/cons-en.php

You’ll get some idea about the theme of the next congress.
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Thanks. I’m going to quote this post over at the “Benedictine School” thread so that we don’t destroy this one.

Peace,
 
jwinch2 said:
Great stuff Brother JR. Thanks for sharing those issues and putting them in context. I agree with your analysis.
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You’re welcome. I hope it helps. I truly like his analysis.
1AugustSon7 said:
In reading Brother JR’s post and this one, I think we can see a syntehsis/balance emerging that is both wise and practical. Both POV’s (Brother JR’s and Rich C’s) are legitimate observations and recommendations based on solidly Catholic criteria: I think the two both can and should be harmonised, and that this would result in a lot of good and general increase in Catholic concord.
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I strongly believe that we must always reach for balance first and then perfection. All too often, we do it the other way around. That’s when feathers get ruffled. Look at the problems that some left-wing groups are having. Are all of their observations about the Church wrong? No. Some are right on the money. Is there balance in their presentation? No. It’s always very negative. There is rarely a complimentary word or a word of gratitude. This does not mean that these folks don’t find something good in the Church or are ingrates. It means that compliments and expressions of gratitude are their best kept secrets. 😃

I for one, will always listen to a person who presents with balance. I do not promise that I will agree. I promise that I will truly listen and try to understand. I also promise that I will shut out a person who is not balanced. Such a person usually lacks inner peace. If I listen too closely, I’ll end being sucked into his spiritual whirlpool. We must protect ourselves from such whirlpools.
Denise1957 said:
Wow…what a great article (the OP)!

He also emphasizes that we have to lose the “attitude.”

I’ve been convinced for quite some time that charity and humility are necessary in order for the TLM to be more available (even though I’m still working on being charitable myself).
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Charity and humility are part of the universal call to holiness. St. Francis had an expression that I have always loved. “I am what I am before God . . . nothing else.” This was a man who never walked around expounding on what he was entitled to receive from the Church, despite the fact that the Church of his time was in worse shape than we are today. Hard to believe, but it’s true. He was very aware that no one, not even the Church, owed him anything, because of who he was before God. Before God, he was as much a sinner as anyone else. The effect was that it opened doors for him and his religious family that were never open to anyone before and are not open to any religious family today, except the Franciscans. Trust me, it’s not because we’re holy and good. It’s because of the great respect that the Church has for Francis of Assisi, even today. I remember when Pope Benedict XVI called the Italian bishops on the carpet and told them that they all needed to take lessons on obedience from St. Francis.

When you take the lower road, the words of Christ in the Gospel come true, “Move up the table, dear friend.”

One of my favorite stories in the Gospel is the woman who was bleeding and thought that if she could only touch Christ’s garment, she would be healed and she was. Think of this kind of humility, whether we’re talking about traditionalists or one of these organizations on the other side of the spectrum. This is the kind of humility that says, “I’m not entitled to anything. But if I can just get a little closer, I would be happy.” Sometimes, it’s a matter of taking one step closer to what we believe is the ideal, rather than getting it all in one movement. Just getting a pastor to dialogue about having an EF is one step closer. Engage in a debate and you’ve lost before you left the starting gate. You began with "I’m entitled to . . . "
I wasn’t aware, before reading the article, that seminaries in the U.S. are actually training the seminarians to celebrate the EF. That’s awesome! It means that within the next 5-10 years, we’ll have more priests who can offer it. We’ll just have to be more patient.
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Many seminaries are doing so and so are religious communities. However, we must remember, this is not a duty. We had this issue in one diocese where seven priests were ordained. All were trained in the EF. All declined to celebrate it when asked to do so. They were smeared by some wagging tongues. Someone even suggested that the laity not donate money to the seminary fund until the newly ordained priests coming out of the seminary agreed to celebrate the EF. Obviously, this sad idea was voiced by a few people. It’s just that the dissidents are usually louder than the rest of us.
 
I like what the author says here regarding how the Holy Father himself views the situation:
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We keep forgetting this part of his plan, don’t we?"
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If I’m understanding the Holy Father’s hope is that there will be a merger of the two forms. I can best give the Franciscan example. For those of you who watch mass on EWTN. You will see a merger of the Franciscan Form with the Ordinary Form. It’s a hybrid mass. Without going into too many details but I’ll point out just two: 1) EWTN follows the Franciscan calendar, not the Roman calendar. 2) EWTN uses the Eucharistic Prayers from the Roman-Franciscan Missal, not the Roman Missal. However, no one notices it. Only one person ever came up to me and asked why the readings on EWTN were different from mass at the local parish. It happened to be a Franciscan holy day. I think this is where the Holy Father wants to go, to an integration that is seamless. At the same time, respecting differences that come from different cultures, different religious orders, even different age groups.
"Every major reform of the Church began in two ways; from among the laity, and through personal reform.
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This actually is not correct. Every major reform has begun with religious orders. There have always been many lay people who have supported these reforms. This is absolutely true. Some have even financed them. It’s not that the laity cannot do it. It’s that the laity has always looked to the religious orders for a cue or to individual religious who were very charismatic: Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis de Sales, etc…
Mrs_Sally said:
Two hours from the Arlington diocese is the wilderness, I’ll give you that. 😛
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HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!! What do you mean “wilderness”? I was born and raised 2 hours away from Arlington. That’s God’s country out there. Wilderness!!! :dts:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!! What do you mean “wilderness”? I was born and raised 2 hours away from Arlington. That’s God’s country out there. Wilderness!!! :dts:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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Depending on traffic on 66, 2 hours from Arlington could mean Fairfax or it could mean Front Royal.

Just sayin’…
 
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