The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joe_5859
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Joe_5859

Guest
I apologize for the provocative title. I’m simply carrying it over from this blog article:

The Latin Mass: Why You Can’t Have It

I think it’s a very well-reasoned articulation on why the EF/TLM hasn’t exploded in the last 5 years in the wake of Summorum Pontificum. It looks at some of the practical considerations that often get overlooked.

I think it’s a helpful article in that it encourages us to really look at what’s going on instead of falling prey to hand-wringing.

So I guess I’m just posting this as a good read and wondering if others agree/disagree.

Please, no OF vs. EF debate! I’d prefer the thread remain opened. :o

If this topic is inappropriate, please accept my apologies. As far as I could ascertain, there is no moratorium at present, so I went with it. :o
 
I don’t understand why anyone would want it- unless you’re fluent in Latin.
 
ProVobis said:
And there are laws prohibiting the study of Latin?
Click to expand...
Not that I am aware of.
But why would you want to use your time to study Latin in order to understand the mass that is perfectly understandable in one’s native language?

How does Latin change anything?
 
I find it humorous that his blog post contains a Pater Noster set to electronic percussion and and synthesizers. A little too new-agey for me.
 
Micah11 said:
Not that I am aware of.
But why would you want to use your time to study Latin in order to understand the mass that is perfectly understandable in one’s native language?

How does Latin change anything?
Click to expand...
Personally I would say that focusing on “Latin” as the barrier misses the larger points.
The components of the OF and EF are essentially the same, but the structure is different.
I cannot speak for others but for me that difference involves a different form, a different type, of participation. I can’t really explain it too well…A lot of words come to mind that are commonly used…reverence…community participation…contemplative…involvement and so forth. I don’t say this as a slam on either form, since I love both equally.

As to the matter of Latin being used, it is just one component of the EF that, for many people, seems to add to the overall experience and draw of the form.

And for what it’s worth…I would say that most people who attend EF masses are probably not that well versed in Latin. I know I am not. Missals and missalettes are available that have the Latin side by side with the English.

Peace
James
 
Micah11 said:
I don’t understand why anyone would want it- unless you’re fluent in Latin.
Click to expand...
The latin isn’t the point. Even baroque beauty some churches have isn’t it. The draw of the Extraordinary Form is that many of its adherents feel that it is conducive to a certain contemplative spirituality.

Furthermore, many who celebrate and assist at the traditional latin mass are intent on celebrating it in a manner that is as reverent as they are able.

See the Asperges (water sprinkling rite) in the video link below:

youtube.com/watch?v=7FFeejxj-pg
 
While I was only able to skim the Article briefly it looks to have many good, well reasoned points. Thanks for sharing it…

One thing that I would like to mention and seems to be part of a root in many of the arguments over these issues is this…

How many times have you heard the following retort to the suggestion of having a Latin Mass:
“Nobody in this parish would be interested”…
Yet I personally have not seen or even heard of a diocese “polling” their parishioners on the matter.
I mention this because the author of the article, in trying to estimate probable interest…the numbers attending the masses in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati (my home). It’s obvious that there are no actual numbers…reflection of interest among the faithful to be had.

It is my belief that if the parishioners WERE polled, it would give our seminary leaders a jolt. Not that the numbers would be huge, but certainly that the numbers are larger than many believe. Such a poll would, IMHO, serve to indicate the most efficient way in with to serve these populations.

I’m not going to hold my breath though…

Peace
James
 
Micah11 said:
But why would you want to use your time to study Latin in order to understand the mass that is perfectly understandable in one’s native language?
Click to expand...
There is no evidence that the Mass is better understood in one’s native language, but then it depends on what understanding means in the first place. I have a different understanding when I attend a Polish or Spanish Mass rather than in English Mass but I see I get no where with that argument. Let’s just say you prefer the English Mass to a Latin OF or a Vietnamese OF or an EF and leave it there.
 
Esrb99 said:
The latin isn’t the point. Even baroque beauty some churches have isn’t it. **The draw of the Extraordinary Form is that many of its adherents feel that it is conducive to a certain contemplative spirituality. **

Furthermore, many who celebrate and assist at the traditional latin mass are intent on celebrating it in a manner that is as reverent as they are able.

See the Asperges (water sprinkling rite) in the video link below:

youtube.com/watch?v=7FFeejxj-pg
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting this video. 👍

I agree with you that at EF, there is ample opportunity to contemplate the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, at least more than I have at the NO. Maybe that’s my own fault however. . .I do, however, find the low mass to be a tad too quiet for me so I’m going to probably stick to solemn high or missa cantata in the future). My mind didn’t wander too badly yesterday at the low mass, but after a while, I started to get that feeling that things were dragging a bit. I don’t usually feel that way at NO. 🤷
 
Preferring the Latin, especially in an archane setting smacks of being drawn to exclusive, esoteric rituals that only a few enlightend souls are aware of. Maybe it enables the participants to feel a wee bit more special than they ordinarily do, just like other gnostic & occultists!
 
SeekNFind said:
Thanks for posting this video. 👍

I agree with you that at EF, there is ample opportunity to contemplate the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, at least more than I have at the NO. Maybe that’s my own fault however. . .I do, however, find the low mass to be a tad too quiet for me so I’m going to probably stick to solemn high or missa cantata in the future). My mind didn’t wander too badly yesterday at the low mass, but after a while, I started to get that feeling that things were dragging a bit. I don’t usually feel that way at NO. 🤷
Click to expand...
RE the bolded…I find this to be true also…My preference is for the weekly OF ( with no music etc.) and Sunday EF. 👍

Peace
James
 
Joe_5859 said:
I apologize for the provocative title. I’m simply carrying it over from this blog article:

The Latin Mass: Why You Can’t Have It

I think it’s a very well-reasoned articulation on why the EF/TLM hasn’t exploded in the last 5 years in the wake of Summorum Pontificum. It looks at some of the practical considerations that often get overlooked.

I think it’s a helpful article in that it encourages us to really look at what’s going on instead of falling prey to hand-wringing.

So I guess I’m just posting this as a good read and wondering if others agree/disagree.

Please, no OF vs. EF debate! I’d prefer the thread remain opened. :o

If this topic is inappropriate, please accept my apologies. As far as I could ascertain, there is no moratorium at present, so I went with it. :o
Click to expand...
Good article 👍
 
ProVobis said:
There is no evidence that the Mass is better understood in one’s native language, but then it depends on what understanding means in the first place. I have a different understanding when I attend a Polish or Spanish Mass rather than in English Mass but I see I get no where with that argument. Let’s just say you prefer the English Mass to a Latin OF or a Vietnamese OF or an EF and leave it there.
Click to expand...
Let’s be honest here. A person understands best in their native toungue, it’s pretty difficult to get away from that, and to try to do so is an exercise in the absurd, although I’m sure we can go on and on parsing the word understanding (have a good time).

The world is full of people who grew up with the Latin Mass, and cannot not tell you a word of what it means, the actual words or theology behind them. My parents are two of those. They are tremedously faithful Catholics, but could not pass on a whiff of the theology behind Catholicism. So, a whole generation of people grew up hearing their perverse culture telling them, “do abc, and here’s good reasons why you should do ab&c”, and used the media and other modern methods making it easy to understand why “ab&c”, and good Catholics had nothing to answer with. The lay faithful were ill equipped (how about non-equipped) for this challenge. But they grew up with Church-Latin, yes they sure did.
 
I hope this thread does not get too sidetracked here over the “Latin” issue…as a couple of us have already pointed out, the language is not really that big of a deal. “Latin” just happens to be part and parcel of the EF structure.

Let’s see if we can concentrate a bit more on what the article has to say about availability of priests, determining real interest, in other words…The supply and demand aspects covered in the linked article.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
While I was only able to skim the Article briefly it looks to have many good, well reasoned points. Thanks for sharing it…

One thing that I would like to mention and seems to be part of a root in many of the arguments over these issues is this…

How many times have you heard the following retort to the suggestion of having a Latin Mass:
“Nobody in this parish would be interested”…
Yet I personally have not seen or even heard of a diocese “polling” their parishioners on the matter.
I mention this because the author of the article, in trying to estimate probable interest…the numbers attending the masses in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati (my home). It’s obvious that there are no actual numbers…reflection of interest among the faithful to be had.

It is my belief that if the parishioners WERE polled, it would give our seminary leaders a jolt. Not that the numbers would be huge, but certainly that the numbers are larger than many believe. Such a poll would, IMHO, serve to indicate the most efficient way in with to serve these populations.

I’m not going to hold my breath though…

Peace
James
Click to expand...
You’re right, that’s a good point that wasn’t really addressed by the article. I’m trying to remember back 5 years. For some reason, I’m thinking there was a poll of some sort in my area, but maybe that is just me recalling my wishful thinking. :o The one priest in my area who actually knew how to celebrate the older form has sadly passed away.

And now I’m trying to remember ever seeing any diocese take a diocesan-wide poll about anything. I can see why people to whom the concept of the EF isn’t really on their radar screen would be hesitant about taking on the extra job of conducting such a poll, collating the results, and then actually doing something about them. Maybe CARA can do something. That seems to me the best route to go to collect actual data that people would pay attention to.
 
Micah11 said:
Not that I am aware of.
But why would you want to use your time to study Latin in order to understand the mass that is perfectly understandable in one’s native language?

How does Latin change anything?
Click to expand...
It’s not the Ordinary Form, just in Latin, you know.

The prayers are mostly different, the actions are mostly different, the way of participating is mostly different, the way you receive Holy Communion is different. There is a lot more to it than the Latin.

And thanks, OP. I’ll save this link for later.
 
Rich_C said:
It’s not the Ordinary Form, just in Latin, you know.

The prayers are mostly different, the actions are mostly different, the way of participating is mostly different, the way you receive Holy Communion is different. There is a lot more to it than the Latin.

And thanks, OP. I’ll save this link for later.
Click to expand...
Would be nice if the Tridentine Mass can be translated. Why didn’t they just do that? 🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top