The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

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Joe_5859 said:
You’re right, that’s a good point that wasn’t really addressed by the article. I’m trying to remember back 5 years. For some reason, I’m thinking there was a poll of some sort in my area, but maybe that is just me recalling my wishful thinking. :o The one priest in my area who actually knew how to celebrate the older form has sadly passed away.

And now I’m trying to remember ever seeing any diocese take a diocesan-wide poll about anything. I can see why people to whom the concept of the EF isn’t really on their radar screen would be hesitant about taking on the extra job of conducting such a poll, collating the results, and then actually doing something about them. Maybe CARA can do something. That seems to me the best route to go to collect actual data that people would pay attention to.
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I think what the article writer IS looking at, the actual attendance figures week in week out in places where the EF is fairly well established, is a far better indicator of likely demand than a poll among people, at least some of whom might say yes simply because they have heard a little about it and may be curious to attend once or twice (or a few times a year) but not regularly enough to make the investment the writer speaks of worthwhile.
 
clem456 said:
Let’s be honest here. A person understands best in their native toungue, it’s pretty difficult to get away from that, and to try to do so is an exercise in the absurd, …
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That’s what the 16th century Reformers thought too. And today we have over 30,000 leaderless Christian denominations, almost all without Apostolic Succession, the necessary basis of our faith. (And to put things in perspective, there are roughly only about 7,000 languages in the world.)

I happen to think the old Mass lost much of its long-standing appeal when it was translated in the 60’s. Probably most of its underlying mystery as well and people got quickly bored.
 
Micah11 said:
I don’t understand why anyone would want it- unless you’re fluent in Latin.
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I’ll take “Panis Angelicus” over insufferable hippy swill like “Companions on the Journey” any day of the week.
 
ProVobis said:
That’s what the 16th century Reformers thought too. And today we have over 30,000 leaderless Christian denominations, almost all without Apostolic Succession, the necessary basis of our faith. (And to put things in perspective, there are roughly only about 7,000 languages in the world.)

I happen to think the old Mass lost much of its long-standing appeal when it was translated in the 60’s. Probably most of its underlying mystery as well and people got quickly bored.
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Using the vernacular as a scapegoat for the reformation? That’s a new one I haven’t heard before.
 
LilyM said:
I think what the article writer IS looking at, the actual attendance figures week in week out in places where the EF is fairly well established, is a far better indicator of likely demand than a poll among people, at least some of whom might say yes simply because they have heard a little about it and may be curious to attend once or twice (or a few times a year) but not regularly enough to make the investment the writer speaks of worthwhile.
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That’s a fair point. A bishop might not be inclined to devote a parish to the EF because people indicate their curiosity on a pew card. Thinking it would be cool to experience in theory here and there is different from actually going regularly and helping to sustain the effort.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Would be nice if the Tridentine Mass can be translated. Why didn’t they just do that? 🤷
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Plenty of handmissals, plenty of different translations in plenty of languages. Which one translation would you suggest that will last 1600+ years? Or even 50 years?
 
ProVobis said:
Plenty of handmissals, plenty of different translations in plenty of languages. Which one would you suggest that will last 1600+ years?
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Worked for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is actually 1600 years old now.
 
JRKH said:
And for what it’s worth…I would say that most people who attend EF masses are probably not that well versed in Latin. I know I am not. Missals and missalettes are available that have the Latin side by side with the English.

Peace
James
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I always respect your opinion, James, and I want to add a kind of reverse to your obverse. For me, the OF is the one at which I am most contemplative and most … connected, I think. I so much don’t want to be looking at a translation of something being said when they can just say in English.

I also think it was a good article and he put the issues in the correct order: the no. 1 reason there aren’t more EF Masses is: demand.
 
Joe_5859 said:
And now I’m trying to remember ever seeing any diocese take a diocesan-wide poll about anything. I can see why people to whom the concept of the EF isn’t really on their radar screen would be hesitant about taking on the extra job of conducting such a poll, collating the results, and then actually doing something about them. Maybe CARA can do something. That seems to me the best route to go to collect actual data that people would pay attention to.
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I think we may a live poll in action in my town, which is very small but has THREE Catholic churches. We are VERY Catholic here. Last spring the young priest who took over my Parish declared it was to be all EF all the time after he got things arranged correctly. Also, everyone would kneel and everyone would receive on the tongue. So, about half the parish left right then for the other two churches. I believe he will finally be ready for his grand EF opening at Advent.

I’ll be interested to see how many people from the other two Parishes migrate to his. Note that the two churches that are farthest apart are only six minutes apart - a really small town, so everyone can choose easily where to go.

I’ll be counting cars and report back.
 
ProVobis said:
That’s what the 16th century Reformers thought too. And today we have over 30,000 leaderless Christian denominations, almost all without Apostolic Succession, the necessary basis of our faith. (And to put things in perspective, there are roughly only about 7,000 languages in the world.)

I happen to think the old Mass lost much of its long-standing appeal when it was translated in the 60’s. Probably most of its underlying mystery as well and people got quickly bored.
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Let’s not deviate too far from the point of the post. You were claiming that people can understand things just as well in Latin as their native tongue. That’s a non-starter. And understanding is really really important in this age, when information of all kinds is slung around at very high speeds. The Church in it’s inspired wisdom at V2 addressed this issue.

Latin is great. I appreciate singing it as much as the next person. But it’s not the substance of faith or Christian service. And it’s not going to cure the ills that have plagued humanity since the garden. In fact if we are going to get caught up in these obsessions with the past, the present is going to pass by without our full participation.

The Mass is the Mass. There is not an old Mass or a new Mass. The languages and other practices change across times and places, but it’s the same Sacrifice, the same Mass.
 
Where does this idea that people have to understand what’s being said come from?

The Tridentine Mass was instituted in 1570. Mass was said in Latin long before then in the Roman rite. So for at least 1000 years, Mass was said everywhere in Latin.

I really doubt the illiterate peasants of medieval France knew Latin, much less could they read a Missal. They didn’t seem to think it was a problem.

What’s going in Mass is a mystery. You’re witnessing a priest (a miracle in himself) confect bread and wine into the body and blood of Our Lord. It’s not something you’re meant to understand. This is why the Mass being in Latin was, to my mind, a feature, not a bug – it emphasized more effectively the alienness and otherworldliness of what was going on. Likewise the posture and vestment and respect paid to the priest during the Mass emphasized the ontological otherworldliness of the priest. Likewise the fact that the priest alone could touch the Eucharist, and only the priest and deacon could touch the vessels that carried the Eucharist (the subdeacon was required to hold the paten using the humeral veil so that it did not come into contact with him) emphasized the otherworldliness and centrality of the Eucharist. The loss of things, and the loss of the sacral sense that they entailed, has not been a good thing.
 
Julia_Mae said:
I think we may a live poll in action in my town, which is very small but has THREE Catholic churches. We are VERY Catholic here. Last spring the young priest who took over my Parish declared it was to be all EF all the time after he got things arranged correctly. Also, everyone would kneel and everyone would receive on the tongue. So, about half the parish left right then for the other two churches. I believe he will finally be ready for his grand EF opening at Advent.

I’ll be interested to see how many people from the other two Parishes migrate to his. Note that the two churches that are farthest apart are only six minutes apart - a really small town, so everyone can choose easily where to go.

I’ll be counting cars and report back.
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We have been leaking Catholics to a local evangelical seim-mega-church that excels at welcoming, evangelization, and ministering to people. Most of the fence-jumpers are middle-aged couples and divorced people. The language and tone of the Mass has nothing to do with this. We already have 2 “contemporary” Masses and 3 “traditional” Masses for different tastes.

The reason they are leaving the Church is due to pastoral and doctrinal issues. The handling of divorce and non-traditional families, lack of fellowship, abortion and birth control, homosexuality. Some of these issues are obviously non-negotiable, some of the pastoral issues we can do better on. Beleive me,Latin Mass parts is the very last thing that will draw these people back to Mother Church. Many people would run screaming from the Church.

It is so difficult to evangelize and catechize people today. Many of my protestant associates have the same old misconceptions, one of the main ones being that the Church is full of hollow and external observances that have no real value. If we are going to reach these people, it needs to be done in a way that is understandable. Trying to learn Latin unnecessarily complicates this task. The RCIA process is already months long, we do not have the luxury of trying to teach these people Latin in order to understand the Mass.

The Church is not the main source of information as it was in the distant past, and is not the only force trying to reason with people. We as a Church need to speak clearly and directly to people. It is good that Mass is currently done in the vernacular, and it is no accident.
 
clem456 said:
Let’s not deviate too far from the point of the post. You were claiming that people can understand things just as well in Latin as their native tongue.
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No, I didn’t say that. In fact, the opposite, because I happen to understand Polish and English, but that’s beside the real point. I’ve been taught that belief is the basis of Catholicism, not understanding. As an example, *consubstantialem Patri *either is truth or it isn’t. I don’t and will never understand it but I know it to be the truth. I can’t say the same for any translation of it.
 
clem456 said:
The reason they are leaving the Church is due to pastoral and doctrinal issues. The handling of divorce and non-traditional families, lack of fellowship, abortion and birth control, homosexuality.
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Many Catholics who are divorced, cohabitating, practice birth control, are pro-choice, etc. still go to Mass. Maybe not so much Anglophone Catholics but they still go.
 
sw85 said:
Where does this idea that people have to understand what’s being said come from?
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You must be joking…
Fides et Ratio by JP2
The Tridentine Mass was instituted in 1570. Mass was said in Latin long before then in the Roman rite. So for at least 1000 years, Mass was said everywhere in Latin.
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I really doubt the illiterate peasants of medieval France knew Latin, much less could they read a Missal. They didn’t seem to think it was a problem.
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And you know that because…?
Of how many heads rolled in the revolution? (I don’t know myself, I’m just trying to fill in the gap there…)
What’s going in Mass is a mystery. . The loss of things, and the loss of the sacral sense that they entailed, has not been a good thing
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Mystery does not preclude some level of understanding, in fact mystery invites understanding, or attepts at it.
Where are you attending Mass, that the sacred has been lost?
 
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