The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

[Melchior_1]

Low, lower, and lowest too, I presume?

Strange depictions of the Mass is all I can say from you and Rich C.

Only proves my point about misunderstandings of familiar words.

If you think no one can misunderstand Latin, you would be misunderstood yourself

 

[ProVobis]

If you think no one can misunderstand Latin, you would be misunderstood yourself

Maybe but one is less likely to misunderstand “Hoc est enim Corpus Meum” or “Quasi Modo” Sunday (which has become “Low Sunday,” something I’m sure the Anglophones also have fun with).

Lawyers also use Latin like “Habeas corpus,” “affadavit,” etc. to avoid misunderstandings in the English. Latin is more powerful than you give it credit for.

 

[Rich_C]

Just keep in mind the issue is not Latin. Just for example, most traditionalists I know would be thrilled if a vernacular EF Mass replaced the current OF Mass. The debate over Latin is does not coincide identically with the debate over the TLM.

 

[jwinch2]

Just keep in mind the issue is not Latin. Just for example, most traditionalists I know would be thrilled if a vernacular EF Mass replaced the current OF Mass. The debate over Latin is does not coincide identically with the debate over the TLM.

Perhaps the ones you know. However, If you take some time to peruse these fora you will see clearly that for many, Latin is the issue, or at the very least a major one. There are many comments from traditionalists here on CAF about wishing that all of the OF Masses would be celebrated in Latin rather than the vernacular.

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just keep in mind the issue is not Latin. Just for example, most traditionalists I know would be thrilled if a vernacular EF Mass replaced the current OF Mass. The debate over Latin is does not coincide identically with the debate over the TLM.

This is what they should have done in the first place. And if they want to increase congregational participation, then just tinker with the Tridentine Mass.

 

[jwinch2]

This is what they should have done in the first place. And if they want to increase congregational participation, then just tinker with the Tridentine Mass.

I wouldn’t have had a major issue with that. I know one of the goals was to increase the utilization of Sacred Scripture in the Mass, so having an extra reading or placing a bit more emphasis on the homily would have been easy changes that likely no one would have had a concern about. Combine that with having the Mass in one’s native language and things could have been quite different.

When I have seen videos of Western Rite Orthodox liturgies, that is what it reminds me of.

Peace,

 

[Rich_C]

Perhaps the ones you know. However, If you take some time to peruse these fora you will see clearly that for many, Latin is the issue, or at the very least a major one. There are many comments from traditionalists here on CAF about wishing that all of the OF Masses would be celebrated in Latin rather than the vernacular.

Peace,

I know of two posters here for whom Latin is a sticking point, not many. But maybe I overlooked others. In general, the traditionalists I know would not find a Latin OF more attractive than a vernacular one, but I admit there are different kinds of trads, and I don’t know them all.

I think the reason the Latin vs Vernacular argument is seen more often here is because that’s about as much depth of debate is allowed on CAF in the bigger EF/OF conversation. On less moderated forums, the discussion rarely lingers there.

 

[M-Dent]

Just keep in mind the issue is not Latin. Just for example, most traditionalists I know would be thrilled if a vernacular EF Mass replaced the current OF Mass. The debate over Latin is does not coincide identically with the debate over the TLM.

 

[jwinch2]

I know of two posters here for whom Latin is a sticking point, not many. But maybe I overlooked others. In general, the traditionalists I know would not find a Latin OF more attractive than a vernacular one, but I admit there are different kinds of trads, and I don’t know them all.

I have seen dozens of such comments on various threads from multiple members here on CAF.

I think the reason the Latin vs Vernacular argument is seen more often here is because that’s about as much depth of debate is allowed on CAF in the bigger EF/OF conversation. On less moderated forums, the discussion rarely lingers there.

Interesting point.

 

[ProVobis]

most traditionalists I know would be thrilled if a vernacular EF Mass replaced the current OF Mass.

Then I would challenge these “traditionalists” on whether they love the Mass more or the translations of the texts in their handmissals.

Vernacular implies approved translations (there are none right now) and probably new and changing missals, which you and they may not necessarily like.

Be careful for what you ask. You may get your vernacular (and everything else that comes with it) all right but maybe later you’ll wish you hadn’t. Just like all the Churchgoers who quit going to Church in the 60’s.

That said, I would think someone who loves the OF would be most offended by such “EF in the vernacular is better than any OF” comments coming from you. Weren’t these type comments first attributed to the leader of the FSSPX, which eventually led to his suspension?

 

[JReducation]

Regardless of whether one loves Latin or Chinese, the fact is that we’re headed for a hybrid mass that will have Latin and Chinese. It will also have elements of both the current OF and EF. It’s the most practical way to go in order to accommodate, as the author of the blog lays out. If you don’t have the needed number of priests to celebrate the EF and you have scheduling issues and numbers issues, then you have to find an alternative that will unite the Latin Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[ConstantineTG]

Regardless of whether one loves Latin or Chinese, the fact is that we’re headed for a hybrid mass that will have Latin and Chinese. It will also have elements of both the current OF and EF. It’s the most practical way to go in order to accommodate, as the author of the blog lays out. If you don’t have the needed number of priests to celebrate the EF and you have scheduling issues and numbers issues, then you have to find an alternative that will unite the Latin Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Anglican Use!

 

[JReducation]

Anglican Use!

No. The Church does not want to contaminate the Anglican form. It’s not being touched.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[ConstantineTG]

No. The Church does not want to contaminate the Anglican form. It’s not being touched.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

That’s right. But as it is it is traditional, East facing, and in English. Everyone wins!

 

[M-Dent]

Regardless of whether one loves Latin or Chinese, the fact is that we’re headed for a hybrid mass that will have Latin and Chinese. It will also have elements of both the current OF and EF.

If a new Roman Missal has the celebrant facing East for the Eucharistic prayers – a lot would be accomplished.

As Cardinal Ratzinger noted,

The idea that a celebration facing the people must have been the primitive one, and that especially of the last supper, has no other foundation than a mistaken view of what a meal could be in antiquity, Christian or not. In no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face the other participants. They were all sitting, or reclining, on the convex side of a C-shaped table, or of a table having approximately the shape of a horse shoe. The other side was always left empty for the service. Nowhere in Christian antiquity, could have arisen the idea of having to ‘face the people’ to preside at a meal. The communal character of a meal was emphasized just by the opposite disposition: the fact that all the participants were on the same side of the table

(Liturgy and Architecture, pp. 53-54).

 

[ProVobis]

That’s right. But as it is it is traditional, East facing, and in English. Everyone wins!

Good luck. Several years ago I had a chance to attend an Episcopal service (I arrived too early for a pipe organ recital), there were maybe 10-15 people in the pews in their large downtown cathedral.

Oh, and the recital. I was the only one in attendance for that. And this was a gorgeous-sounding organ too.

 

[JReducation]

If a new Roman Missal has the celebrant facing East for the Eucharistic prayers – a lot would be accomplished.

If the rumors are true, the priest will have the option to face the people.

As Cardinal Ratzinger noted,

As he said himself, "One see things differently when one is pope. Today, Pope Benedict and Cardinal Ratzinger do not agree on everything. While they agree that the Pasch was eaten with everyone facing the same direction, the current pope also believes that facing either way is not the real issue. There is more to it.

The real issue is learning to pray from the liturgy. Just this week he put out a catechesis on this subject, very interesting too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[M-Dent]

As he said himself, "One see things differently when one is pope. Today, Pope Benedict and Cardinal Ratzinger do not agree on everything. While they agree that the Pasch was eaten with everyone facing the same direction, the current pope also believes that facing either way is not the real issue. There is more to it.

The real issue is learning to pray from the liturgy. Just this week he put out a catechesis on this subject, very interesting too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Re: *seeing things differently *

Yes. The Holy Father has noted this from time to time.

I recall he mentioned a development in his view of baptism of children w/ parents who were weak in the faith. That in the past he was strongly against baptism when a child had little hope being brought up w/ proper catechesis. Now he has a greater hope in God’s Grace and Mercy.

Yet, on the topic of orientation of Eucharistic prayers - I have not heard any change in his belief eastern orientation is more fruitful (in theological understanding). Though, I agree, there is more than simple orientation that is important.

 

[M-Dent]

The Holy Fathers does give one a lot to reflect on with such few paragraphs.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Having focused for several weeks now on prayer as taught to us in the sacred Scriptures, we turn to another precious source of prayer, namely the liturgy. The word “liturgy” in Greek means “work done by the people and for the people”. Here, this “people” is the new People of God, brought into being by Christ, a people which does not exist by itself and which is not bound by blood, territory or country, but is brought into being through the Paschal Mystery. The liturgy is also the “work of God”. As the Second Vatican Council teaches, it is by means of the liturgy that Christ our Redeemer and High Priest continues the work of our redemption in, with, and through his Church. This is the great marvel of the liturgy: God acts, while we are caught up in his action.

The Council began its work by discussing the liturgy, and righty so, for the liturgy reminds us of the primacy of God. The fundamental criterion for it is its orientation towards the Father, whose saving love culminates in the death and resurrection of his Son. It is in the liturgy that we “lift up our hearts”, opening ourselves to the word of God as we gather with our brethren in a prayer which rises within us, and which is directed to the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20120926_en.html

 

[Melchior_1]

Regardless of whether one loves Latin or Chinese, the fact is that we’re headed for a hybrid mass that will have Latin and Chinese. It will also have elements of both the current OF and EF. It’s the most practical way to go in order to accommodate, as the author of the blog lays out. If you don’t have the needed number of priests to celebrate the EF and you have scheduling issues and numbers issues, then you have to find an alternative that will unite the Latin Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

So the “hybrid Form” will be both the OF and the EF combined, basically? Or will there still be two Forms?