The LDS and the Cross

[Janderich]

Well you may not think much of the fact that God condescended to turn Himself over to humanity to be killed, others feel differently. Which He did willingly in order to get the part you pay attention to, LDS really give short shrift to Christ’s death on the cross, focusing on the garden and then the Resurrection. Less satisfying IMO, like a hollow chocolate rabbit.

I’m sorry you feel that way.

It is Jesus suffering and death that redeemed us, it is His resurrection that gives us hope for the life to come.

The resurrection is the event where Jesus conquered death, and most certainly is the glorious event all Christians celebrate. But death cannot be conquered without dying first, and the death of Jesus most certainly was a pivotal, albeit sad, moment in human history. Jesus united his suffering and death to ours and so all who suffer and die have hope. A sure hope, in Jesus Christ.

He gave his life for you, and for me. Personally I find that more than spectacular.

Yes there is a very subtle difference, and it is subtle. Of course, we also feel his willingness to follow the Father and die was important. In fact I can hardly disagree with what you both have said. He did freely give his life, and this submission was important. Our scriptures say the same, “Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father” (Mosiah 15:7). But the symbol we would prefer would be his resurrection and ascension.

 

[Horton]

Yet his death in and of itself saved no one. What was spectacular was not his death. How many people were crucified in Roman times? No one remembers them. It was his union with us and the Father along with his resurrection that has made all the difference in the world.

(Bold mine) That God came to us, incarnate as man, and willingly suffered death on a cross to save all of mankind is the most spectacular thing ever. His death saved us all. The resurrection is what gives us joy & hope for everlasting life.

 

[iepuras]

Yes there is a very subtle difference, and it is subtle. Of course, we also feel his willingness to follow the Father and die was important. In fact I can hardly disagree with what you both have said. He did freely give his life, and this submission was important. Our scriptures say the same, “Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father” (Mosiah 15:7). But the symbol we would prefer would be his resurrection and ascension.

How do you symbolize the resurrection and ascension then? LDS do not even use the empty cross (as opposed to a crucifix) as a symbol.

 

[iepuras]

My question is, how do you as a Mormon really feel about the Cross hanging in a home. Lets start with the rendition of an empty cross, no body of Christ. I have to admit that I make crosses and crucifixes and I think about it often in so many ways. I want to know how you truly, honestly feel about it.

My LDS parents freaked out when we put up crucifixes in our home. They were visibly uncomfortable and only spent significant time in our home twice after we put up the crucifixes and before we were estranged. We frequently tried to get them to come into our home, but they never wanted to go into our family room where a crucifix was visible.

 

[pablope]

Yet his death in and of itself saved no one. What was spectacular was not his death. How many people were crucified in Roman times? No one remembers them. It was his union with us and the Father along with his resurrection that has made all the difference in the world.

biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#5

I had a friend ask me why Catholics have Crucifixes in our churches…don’t we believe Jesus has risen? Why do we keep Him on

First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.
Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.
One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes there is a very subtle difference, and it is subtle. Of course, we also feel his willingness to follow the Father and die was important. In fact I can hardly disagree with what you both have said. He did freely give his life, and this submission was important. Our scriptures say the same, “Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father” (Mosiah 15:7). But the symbol we would prefer would be his resurrection and ascension.

I kind of don’t get why you are downplaying the Cross, when, at the link Gazelem posted it ends with the phrase “I stand all amazed”. Which is of course an allusion to the hymn of the same name.

How can you sing this hymn, while simultaneously believing that the death of Jesus did nothing?

How do you believe you are redeemed and justified, if not by the Cross?

1. I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,
   Confused at the grace that so fully He proffers me;
   I tremble to know that for me He was crucified—
   That for me, a sinner, He suffered, He bled, and died.

Refrain
Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me!
Enough to die for me!
Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

1. I marvel that He would descend from His throne divine,
   To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine;
   That He should extend His great love unto such as I;
   Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify. [Refrain]
2. I think of His hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!
   Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?
   No, no! I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,
   Until at the glorified throne I kneel at His feet. [Refrain]

 

[Techno2000]

Demons hate the sight of a crucifix.

 

[TowardTruth]

Demons hate the sight of a crucifix.

Is it ecumenical to relate Mormons to demons? That doesn’t seem very Christian.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yet his death in and of itself saved no one. What was spectacular was not his death. How many people were crucified in Roman times? No one remembers them. It was his union with us and the Father along with his resurrection that has made all the difference in the world.

wrong.

Yes…many were crucified…but only ONE was the Son of God and did so WILLINGLY.

I mean, He could have died like Joseph, firing back blindly at people and then trying to leap out of a window, leaving His friends to fend for themselves…but he didn’t. He died WILLINGLY.

He suffered and died for US.

Please do not minimize His Sacrifice.

 

[TheIrishman]

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends - John 15:13

As i am about to enter the military this verse always comes to mind when thinking of Christ and the resurrection. So I can remember Him always and remember His love, I wear the cross. He was willing to die for all of us and that’s what matters most. The cross symbolizes this.

 

[twopekinguys]

Yes there is a very subtle difference, and it is subtle.

Nothing God has done, or will do is ever subtle. i.e. Creation, Noah, Sodom, etc. etc.

 

[Techno2000]

Is it ecumenical to relate Mormons to demons? That doesn’t seem very Christian.

I said DEMONS hate the sight of a Crucifix not Mormons.

 

[TheIrishman]

I said DEMONS hate the sight of a Crucifix not Mormons.

But the OP asked about mormons view of the cross not Demons. So it looks like you are inferring that because mormons don’t use the cross, they must hate the cross, therefore are demons.

 

[Janderich]

Yes, it is amazing that he suffered willingly. But even this did not set him apart from some. Take what is written about Andrew the apostle. He hung on a cross for days. The crowed petitioned the governor to release him but Andrew refused. He said, “Let no one release me, for there has been allotted me this destiny - to depart out of the body and live with the Lord, with whom I am even being crucified.” He must have been an amazing man. But we do not worship him.

No, what is marvelous is that his willing sacrifice had a greater purpose. Through it I can be lifted up to him. Through his sacrifice I can be healed. This mortality can put on immortality and this flesh will not be doomed to rot in the grave. None of that would have been possible without his Gethsemane experience and his resurrection. So I thank him for his death on the cross but I praise him that it has and will draw me to him. And so I sing a different song:

And our eyes at last shall see Him,
Through His own redeeming love;
For that child so dear and gentle,
Is our Lord in heaven above,
And He leads His children on,
To the place where He is gone.

What demon ever spoke those words? I do not worry, he knows my heart.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yes, it is amazing that he suffered willingly. But even this did not set him apart from some.

What sets Jesus’ suffering and death apart from others is that only His suffering and death atoned for our sins. Hence why Catholics have imagery, jewelry, etc related to the crucifixion of our Savior.

Take what is written about Andrew the apostle. He hung on a cross for days. The crowed petitioned the governor to release him but Andrew refused. He said, “Let no one release me, for there has been allotted me this destiny - to depart out of the body and live with the Lord, with whom I am even being crucified.” He must have been an amazing man. But we do not worship him.

St. Andrew is revered as a canonized saint in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and is regarded as a martyr. However his death did not atone for our sins. Jesus’ death did.

For Catholics, we are focused on the entire life of Jesus Christ. We don’t believe that the crucifixion was more important than the resurrection, nor vice versa. We don’t believe that having/wearing crucifixes takes away from the resurrection. Indeed, every Mass celebrated every day in Catholic churches is regarded as a celebration of both the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don’t really find the arguments advanced by LDS as to why they don’t have crosses or crucifixes convincing, other than, it is no longer part of the culture (since apparently crosses were worn and displayed in earlier days).

 

[Zachary]

Yes, it is amazing that he suffered willingly. But even this did not set him apart from some. Take what is written about Andrew the apostle. He hung on a cross for days. The crowed petitioned the governor to release him but Andrew refused. (Andrew) said, “Let no one release me, for there has been allotted me this destiny - to depart out of the body and live with the Lord, with whom I am even being crucified.”

It’s right there…“with whom I am being crucified.”

Andrew was not crucified on Calvary with Jesus so how could he be crucified with Him unless…

I think your chosen example counters your own position.

 

[Jerusha]

It’s right there…“with whom I am being crucified.”

Andrew was not crucified on Calvary with Jesus so how could he be crucified with Him unless…

I think your chosen example counters your own position.

Except, most likely, he does not understand that example. The intensity with which Catholics regard the cross, and, more particularly, the crucifix becomes a mystical experience. LDS do a mind-wipe, and call it idolatry. They simply do not understand how Catholicism deals with the problem of pain. Reviewing the BoM, I can understand why.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes, it is amazing that he suffered willingly. But even this did not set him apart from some. Take what is written about Andrew the apostle. He hung on a cross for days. The crowed petitioned the governor to release him but Andrew refused. He said, “Let no one release me, for there has been allotted me this destiny - to depart out of the body and live with the Lord, with whom I am even being crucified.” He must have been an amazing man. But we do not worship him.

No, what is marvelous is that his willing sacrifice had a greater purpose. Through it I can be lifted up to him. Through his sacrifice I can be healed. This mortality can put on immortality and this flesh will not be doomed to rot in the grave. None of that would have been possible without his Gethsemane experience and his resurrection. So I thank him for his death on the cross but I praise him that it has and will draw me to him. And so I sing a different song:

And our eyes at last shall see Him,
Through His own redeeming love;
For that child so dear and gentle,
Is our Lord in heaven above,
And He leads His children on,
To the place where He is gone.

What demon ever spoke those words? I do not worry, he knows my heart.

The difference is this:

Andrew was not God.

Andrew could not have saved himself.

Understand?

 

[zaffiroborant]

The difference is this:

Andrew was not God.

Andrew could not have saved himself.

Understand?

It’s very telling that Christ’s death is equated with Andrew’s, brings to mind part of a song “he’s a man, he’s just a man”.

 

[Techno2000]

But the OP asked about mormons view of the cross not Demons. So it looks like you are inferring that because mormons don’t use the cross, they must hate the cross, therefore are demons.

What I’m trying to say is that there is a Demonic influence over the World that wants to do away with the crucifix.