The LDS and the Cross

[Jerusha]

Because of occult influence in the origins of Mormonism, and baptism for the dead, there is the possibility that some Mormons’ behavior is demonically influenced, therefore, we can forgive their behavior.

When we imperfect human beings suffer, we willingly dedicate that suffering as penance for our sins, and the sins of others, in order to take the burden of of the perfect Jesus, who did not deserve what He received.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, it is amazing that he suffered willingly. But even this did not set him apart from some. Take what is written about Andrew the apostle. He hung on a cross for days. The crowed petitioned the governor to release him but Andrew refused. He said, “Let no one release me, for there has been allotted me this destiny - to depart out of the body and live with the Lord, with whom I am even being crucified.” He must have been an amazing man. But we do not worship him.

No, what is marvelous is that his willing sacrifice had a greater purpose. Through it I can be lifted up to him. Through his sacrifice I can be healed. This mortality can put on immortality and this flesh will not be doomed to rot in the grave. None of that would have been possible without his Gethsemane experience and his resurrection. So I thank him for his death on the cross but I praise him that it has and will draw me to him. And so I sing a different song:

And our eyes at last shall see Him,
Through His own redeeming love;
For that child so dear and gentle,
Is our Lord in heaven above,
And He leads His children on,
To the place where He is gone.

What demon ever spoke those words? I do not worry, he knows my heart.

I don’t see that we are in disagreement. Our difference is, that we don’t separate the Cross from Jesus and don’t separate suffering as the means to our Salvation.

We view Jesus as the one who sanctifies us. In that vein, all he did was for a purpose. When he was baptized, he sanctified the waters of baptism for us. When he broke break and offered a cup of wine, he sanctified them for us. But all ultimately led to the Cross, where we see Jesus suffered, and so our suffering is sanctified by him. When he rose from the dead, we see our own deaths as a doorway. The Way to eternal life is sanctified for us by Him.

We don’t have a tendency to separate out the actions or words of Jesus, we see them all as the Word of God. Nothing accidental. All purposeful. All meaningful. As Jerusha said, the meaning for us is not just the facts, but have supernatural meanings as well (aka mystical).

I think what is more difficult in the LDS mindset is how the Cross is tied to Fall. Jesus was nailed to a tree, and became for us, the Tree of Life. The fruit of the Tree, is, Himself.

Andrew suffered, you and I suffer (probably not to that extent), millions of people have suffered and will suffer. It is not our own suffering that saves us. Jesus, who is God, united His suffering to ours, and so our suffering has meaning. (That mystical sense again.)

Have you never asked the question, why did Jesus have to suffer and die? Surely, being God, He could have saved us in an manner imaginable. He Himself said, he could call down the armies of heaven. But He did not. So His suffering and death has a meaning that is beyond the mere facts.

 

[TexanKnight]

It’s very telling that Christ’s death is equated with Andrew’s, brings to mind part of a song “he’s a man, he’s just a man”.

Bear in mind, that Mormons do not believe in an Eternal God. The LDS God is simply a a being that was once a sinful man.

 

[Mike_Reed]

Regarding the Deseret News article posted in this thread, and expanded revision of my MA thesis is titled “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo,” and can be previewed on Amazon. The cross taboo was a late development in Mormon history, emerging at the grassroots around the turn of the twentieth century, and was institutionalized in 1957 by President David O McKay. The taboo’s fundamental basis was anti-catholic sentiment.

 

[Mike_Reed]

For some reason I am not allowed to edit my post. Pardon the typos etc.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Regarding the Deseret News article posted in this thread, and expanded revision of my MA thesis is titled “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo,” and can be previewed on Amazon. The cross taboo was a late development in Mormon history, emerging at the grassroots around the turn of the twentieth century, and was institutionalized in 1957 by President David O McKay. The taboo’s fundamental basis was anti-catholic sentiment.

Talmage’s Jesus the Christ was the beginning of LDS anti-Catholic sentiment.

 

[Jerusha]

Regarding the Deseret News article posted in this thread, and expanded revision of my MA thesis is titled “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo,” and can be previewed on Amazon. The cross taboo was a late development in Mormon history, emerging at the grassroots around the turn of the twentieth century, and was institutionalized in 1957 by President David O McKay. The taboo’s fundamental basis was anti-catholic sentiment.

Glad to see you were able to post on the subject. They have a time limit for making changes to posts. Really a good idea for multiple reasons.

Wish we hadn’t been so busy with some nasty Mormons when you were first writing on the subject and came here for information. It is fascinating, and illustrates how inadequate and even harmful Mormonism is in its explanation of the problem of pain.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Regarding the Deseret News article posted in this thread, and expanded revision of my MA thesis is titled “Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo,” and can be previewed on Amazon. The cross taboo was a late development in Mormon history, emerging at the grassroots around the turn of the twentieth century, and was institutionalized in 1957 by President David O McKay. The taboo’s fundamental basis was anti-catholic sentiment.

I was waiting for you to comment and recommend your book (don’t take that negatively!) .

 

[KendraM]

My question is, how do you as a Mormon really feel about the Cross hanging in a home. Lets start with the rendition of an empty cross, no body of Christ. I have to admit that I make crosses and crucifixes and I think about it often in so many ways. I want to know how you truly, honestly feel about it.

The sight of a cross once left me extremely uncomfortable, but more especially the crucifix. Things have changed for me since then. I now find great comfort in the cross.

As a Mormon, I learned that Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane when he sweat great drops of blood. The cross was only a culmination but not as significant as the garden. For LDS, the symbol of the cross is of the dying Christ and not the one who is alive. It is how Christ is viewed. The cross being only a way to die, like a gun. So Mormons would not wear a symbol of a gun around their neck, especially if it killed their brother. I was taught to focus on the resurrection.

When I moved to the Bible belt, I saw all kinds of crosses and learned to appreciate how others viewed the cross. Eventually I got a wall cross and put it up in my home. At first I was very uncomfortable and almost took it down. Now I view the cross as a sign of triumph and of freedom from sin. My understanding of Jesus grew. Then as I attended Mass, I realized as I stared at the imposing crucifix, that the cross is the power of God. That something that was meant to kill people was turned into something that saves people. The blood of Christ transformed the cross. That is the amazing part that is not expressed in words.

 

[OctobersOwn]

The sight of a cross once left me extremely uncomfortable, but more especially the crucifix. Things have changed for me since then. I now find great comfort in the cross.

As a Mormon, I learned that Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane when he sweat great drops of blood. The cross was only a culmination but not as significant as the garden. For LDS, the symbol of the cross is of the dying Christ and not the one who is alive. It is how Christ is viewed. The cross being only a way to die, like a gun. So Mormons would not wear a symbol of a gun around their neck, especially if it killed their brother. I was taught to focus on the resurrection.

When I moved to the Bible belt, I saw all kinds of crosses and learned to appreciate how others viewed the cross. Eventually I got a wall cross and put it up in my home. At first I was very uncomfortable and almost took it down. Now I view the cross as a sign of triumph and of freedom from sin. My understanding of Jesus grew. Then as I attended Mass, I realized as I stared at the imposing crucifix, that the cross is the power of God. That something that was meant to kill people was turned into something that saves people. The blood of Christ transformed the cross. That is the amazing part that is not expressed in words.

This is very beautiful, thanks for sharing.

 

[iepuras]

The sight of a cross once left me extremely uncomfortable, but more especially the crucifix. Things have changed for me since then. I now find great comfort in the cross.

As a Mormon, I learned that Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane when he sweat great drops of blood. The cross was only a culmination but not as significant as the garden. For LDS, the symbol of the cross is of the dying Christ and not the one who is alive. It is how Christ is viewed. The cross being only a way to die, like a gun. So Mormons would not wear a symbol of a gun around their neck, especially if it killed their brother. I was taught to focus on the resurrection.

When I moved to the Bible belt, I saw all kinds of crosses and learned to appreciate how others viewed the cross. Eventually I got a wall cross and put it up in my home. At first I was very uncomfortable and almost took it down. Now I view the cross as a sign of triumph and of freedom from sin. My understanding of Jesus grew. Then as I attended Mass, I realized as I stared at the imposing crucifix, that the cross is the power of God. That something that was meant to kill people was turned into something that saves people. The blood of Christ transformed the cross. That is the amazing part that is not expressed in words.

Thank you, Kendra! I had a similar experience with the crucifix.

I grew up in the Bible Belt so never really had an issue with the cross. The crucifix was different. When I was Mormon, it left me feeling very uncomfortable. I found the crucifix to be ancient, gruesome and Catholic. I didn’t understand it.

When I left the LDS church and started investigating Catholicism, my husband (former Eastern Orthodox now Byzantine Catholic) really wanted a large, bloody crucifix for our home. I just couldn’t do it, because I still was very uncomfortable with it. We bought some smaller wooden crucifixes that were stained one color so they didn’t offend my sensibilities.

When I finally “got it” and really became Catholic in my heart, I began to love the crucifix. I now really want that large, bloody crucifix that my husband wanted. It was beautiful, and I had never seen the beauty in it before. One of my favorite paintings of the crucifixion of Jesus is the Isenheim altarpiece by Matthias Gruenewald. It is horrific but amazingly beautiful.

The cross was an instrument of torture and death, but Jesus transformed it into the Tree of Life.

 

[Tarquin]

Talmage’s Jesus the Christ was the beginning of LDS anti-Catholic sentiment.

I believe that was published in 1922. I lean towards believing the anti-Catholic sentiment existed long before that. It was already prevalent in the 1800s, plus of course there is the Book of Mormon (1830), 1 Nephi chapters 13 and 14, including

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

As well, naturally, of early official publications such as

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces… as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. - The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

Lutherans get pretty much the same treatment:

“It was the apostate Catholics that first originated the idea and by them the fatal delusion has been handed down from generation to generation; and all the children that she has brought forth, or that have left her communion, have, more or less, imbibed the same great features of the apostasy. Well might the Revelator John, speaking by the spirit of prophecy, call her “the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth!” It is her true name, for all the “harlots” which she has brought forth have walked in the footsteps of their “Mother” in declaring against new revelation, and in pretending that ancient revelation is a sufficient rule of faith. It is to be expected that as is the Mother, so will be her Harlot daughters. …In the meantime, another harlot daughter of the Catholics–the Lutherans…”

• Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.40

Q. Who founded the Roman Catholic Church?
A. The Devil, through the medium of Apostates, who subverted the whole order of God by denying immediate revelation, and substituting in the place thereof, tradition and ancient revelations as a sufficient rule of faith and practice. - The Seer, January, 1854. No. 1.

I realize the Mormons do not teach this now, and some probably don’t believe it. But it surely shows that anti-Catholic hostility existed from the foundation of the Church.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I believe that was published in 1922. I lean towards believing the anti-Catholic sentiment existed long before that. It was already prevalent in the 1800s, plus of course there is the Book of Mormon (1830), 1 Nephi chapters 13 and 14, including As well, naturally, of early official publications such as Lutherans get pretty much the same treatment:I realize the Mormons do not teach this now, and some probably don’t believe it. But it surely shows that anti-Catholic hostility existed from the foundation of the Church.

Yes anti-Catholic sentiment was there from the beginning but Talmage’s book firmly established it and unlike Mormon Doctrine by McConkie it is still published by the church, it is a beloved book that is highly recommended by members. You can see the resultant attitude on all boards Mormon, from those of current faithful members, to those struggling to stay and even among former members. You can see in their understanding of and attitude toward Catholicism common threads that trace back to what was woven in Talmage’s book.

 

[LeavesInTheWind]

From childhood even until now, I never felt uncomfortable about the cross, or crucifix as a symbol. It simply was a symbol, reminder and connection to the remarkable history and redemption provided to us by Christ.

 

[phil19034]

Bear in mind, that Mormons do not believe in an Eternal God. The LDS God is simply a a being that was once a sinful man.

So you are saying that God is simply a Saint in Heaven? Or an alien in Heaven?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I wouldn’t know.

Do Mormons believe Jesus died on the Cross or a stake?

Someone has probably already answered it by now, but I think that is the Jehovah Witness

 

[adamhovey1988]

So you are saying that God is simply a Saint in Heaven? Or an alien in Heaven?

Kind of like an alien, is my understanding

 

[adamhovey1988]

From childhood even until now, I never felt uncomfortable about the cross, or crucifix as a symbol. It simply was a symbol, reminder and connection to the remarkable history and redemption provided to us by Christ.

It’s my understanding that Mormons have no always been against its use, but that it stopped being used because it was felt it was too “Catholic”. I happen to agree with you, as that is exactly what it is:thumbsup:

 

[jane_doe]

So you are saying that God is simply a Saint in Heaven? Or an alien in Heaven?

Neither.

Someone has probably already answered it by now, but I think that is the Jehovah Witness

Correct. It is JW that belief Christ was killed on a stake. LDS maintain a cross, like mainstream Christians.

It’s my understanding that Mormons have no always been against its use, but that it stopped being used because it was felt it was too “Catholic”. I happen to agree with you, as that is exactly what it is:thumbsup:

Mormon theology has nothing against using the symbol of the cross. Amongst Mormon culture though, it’s far from the most popular symbol though, favoring pictures of the living Christ (resurrected with Mary, teaching, etc).

 

[Chris-WA]

Yet his death in and of itself saved no one. What was spectacular was not his death. How many people were crucified in Roman times? No one remembers them. It was his union with us and the Father along with his resurrection that has made all the difference in the world.

My friend if you really believe that than you have completely missed the point of the crucifixion. Your LDS training has robbed you of something very important, and that is sad. The cross/crucifix is the ultimate symbol of Christ’s self-sacrifice for the good of all mankind. It is this sacrifice that paid the debt for sin once and for all. It restored the relationship between God and man that was broken by Adam and Eve. The cross and the resurrection are two sides of the same coin. Death by crucifixion was the most humiliating, excruciating death one could suffer, and Christ did it WILLINGLY, giving Himself totally and completely for the good of the world. Mormons may minimize its importance, and are taught to even be repulsed by it, but this is a great mistake and misunderstanding of the most holy symbol in Christianity. If you have been trained to be repulsed by a crucifix, you have been badly misled. It is a symbol of total and complete love, love to the point of being willing to lay down one’s life of for the salvation of others. We are all called to die to self for the good of others, and the cross/crucifix is a constant reminder of this. What you have been trained to be repulsed by is actually a symbol of incredible beauty.