The Liberal Agnostic Secular Humanist Four-Year Old

[Leela]

4 [4-14] This section of the discourse deals with calamities in the world (⇒ Matthew 24:6-7) and in the church (⇒ Matthew 24:9-12). The former must happen before the end comes (⇒ Matthew 24:6), but they are only the beginning of the labor pains (⇒ Matthew 24:8). (It may be noted that the Greek word translated the end in ⇒ Matthew 24:6 and in ⇒ Matthew 24:13-14 is not the same as the phrase “the end of the age” in ⇒ Matthew 24:3 although the meaning is the same.) The latter are sufferings of the church, both from within and without, that will last until the gospel is preached . . . to all nations. Then the end will come and those who have endured the sufferings with fidelity will be saved (⇒ Matthew 24:13-14).
5 [6-7] The disturbances mentioned here are a commonplace of apocalyptic language, as is the assurance that they must happen (see ⇒ Daniel 2:28 LXX), for that is the plan of God. Kingdom against kingdom: see ⇒ Isaiah 19:2.
6 [8] The labor pains: the tribulations leading up to the end of the age are compared to the pains of a woman about to give birth. There is much attestation for rabbinic use of the phrase “the woes (or birth pains) of the Messiah” after the New Testament period, but in at least one instance it is attributed to a rabbi who lived in the late first century A.D. In this Jewish usage it meant the distress of the time preceding the coming of the Messiah; here, the labor pains precede the coming of the Son of Man in glory.
7 [9-12] Matthew has used ⇒ Mark 13:9-12 in his missionary discourse (⇒ Matthew 10:17-21) and omits it here. Besides the sufferings, including death, and the hatred of all nations that the disciples will have to endure, there will be worse affliction within the church itself. This is described in ⇒ Matthew 24:10-12, which are peculiar to Matthew. Will be led into sin: literally, “will be scandalized,” probably meaning that they will become apostates; see ⇒ Matthew 13:21 where “fall away” translates the same Greek word as here. Betray: in the Greek this is the same word as the hand over of ⇒ Matthew 24:9. The handing over to persecution and hatred from outside will have their counterpart within the church. False prophets: these are Christians; see the note on ⇒ Matthew 7:15-20. Evildoing: see ⇒ Matthew 7:23. Because of the apocalyptic nature of much of this discourse, the literal meaning of this description of the church should not be pressed too hard. However, there is reason to think that Matthew’s addition of these verses reflects in some measure the condition of his community. …

To save space, Refer to the remaining interpretations at

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVX.HTM

It sounds like anything that is consistent with history no matter how lacking in specificity is viewed as a fulffilled prophecy, while anything that is not consistent is viewed as poetic imagery or something that has not happened yet.

 

[twb1621]

It sounds like anything that is consistent with history no matter how lacking in specificity is viewed as a fulffilled prophecy, while anything that is not consistent is viewed as poetic imagery or something that has not happened yet.

AHHHH Leela, I bet you didn’t follow the links or consider how those prophacies were even possible based on that response, did you?

Well, you have 2000 years of history so far to find your proof that there is no God or the Bible is wrong (no atheist has been able to do either) and all you can do is claim your disbelief based on unfounded choice, not knowledge.
Everyone has given you more information than you really even cared to see but what you do or not do with it is ALL on you. There is no excuse for ignorance when the direction is offered to you. As far as anything lacking, the only thing Lacking is your interest to learn if there is a God for the remotest possibility of your own salvation rather than your study on why we Christians, Catholics believe what they do.

My question to you is; what possible value could your life have with no belief in God, only the artificial goals and desires you are manipulated into placing as your “desired” priorities established by Industry. As a person with no relationship with God you can only seek what you think expresses “success” in your endeavors all based on materialistic popularity set by Industry into the minds of society to satisfy individual pride, all of which can change at any time. When you reach that goal that allows you to obtain something you’ve been after you think you’ve made an accomplishment. But of what ? What you obtained is really not as good as what you could have gotten or what others may have. How long will that man-made object last before you feel substandard because its outdated or how long will that object last before it starts to deteriorate? Maybe you purchase a high-end car, or a house with double the rooms you need to be comfortable, or a stereo system that can blow the windows out of the house or car so others notice you, or clothes you think will make other people notice how outstanding you are…. and so it goes. Spinning wheels for things that industry through society wants you to pursue like a fish to a hooked worm. Yet none of it will last long… and you really can’t take with you. So how do you justify we as human beings are any better than our pets when it comes to purpose?

 

[Leela]

AHHHH Leela, I bet you didn’t follow the links or consider how those prophacies were even possible based on that response, did you?

What prophecies? I can’t tell what is supposed to have happened other than the second coming of Jesus within the generation of those he was speaking to which obviously did not happen. Can you give me one or two expamples of prophecies that you find interesting rather than simply cutting and pasting nonsense?

Well, you have 2000 years of history so far to find your proof that there is no God or the Bible is wrong (no atheist has been able to do either) and all you can do is claim your disbelief based on unfounded choice, not knowledge.

By disbelief in God is not founded on any more knowledge than your disbelief in fairies, elves, dwarves, unicorns, and leprachauns. I don’t claim to have any proof of the nonexistence of gods or unicorns. It is impossible to prove that such things don’t exist, but that does not mean that they do exist.

Everyone has given you more information than you really even cared to see but what you do or not do with it is ALL on you.

I accept the responsibility for my disbelief in God. I am just as concerned about burning in hell for my lack of belief in Jesus as you probably are about Kornaic claims that you will burn in hell for blieving in Jesus.
twb1621;5131009:

There is no excuse for ignorance when the direction is offered to you. As far as anything lacking, the only thing Lacking is your interest to learn if there is a God for the remotest possibility of your own salvation rather than your study on why we Christians, Catholics believe what they do.

Salvation? What do I need to be saved from?

Also, I study what Catholics and other religions believe much more than you probably study Islam. Shouldn’t you be worried? What if the Muslims are right?

My question to you is; what possible value could your life have with no belief in God, only the artificial goals and desires you are manipulated into placing as your “desired” priorities established by Industry. As a person with no relationship with God you can only seek what you think expresses “success” in your endeavors all based on materialistic popularity set by Industry into the minds of society to satisfy individual pride, all of which can change at any time. When you reach that goal that allows you to obtain something you’ve been after you think you’ve made an accomplishment. But of what ? What you obtained is really not as good as what you could have gotten or what others may have. How long will that man-made object last before you feel substandard because its outdated or how long will that object last before it starts to deteriorate? Maybe you purchase a high-end car, or a house with double the rooms you need to be comfortable, or a stereo system that can blow the windows out of the house or car so others notice you, or clothes you think will make other people notice how outstanding you are…. and so it goes. Spinning wheels for things that industry through society wants you to pursue like a fish to a hooked worm. Yet none of it will last long… and you really can’t take with you. So how do you justify we as human beings are any better than our pets when it comes to purpose?

Why are Catholics around here always trying to convince me that my life is meaningless? Sure, I have my ups and downs like everyone else, but meaningless???

 

[Contarini]

By disbelief in God is not founded on any more knowledge than your disbelief in fairies, elves, dwarves, unicorns, and leprachauns. I don’t claim to have any proof of the nonexistence of gods or unicorns. It is impossible to prove that such things don’t exist, but that does not mean that they do exist.

If I ran into a culture that believed in them, I would not tell them that they were foolish.

I am, you might say, an agnostic about these things (well, I’m closer to outright disbelief on unicorns), not an “atheist.”

However, you make the typical atheist semantic mistake by equating God with “gods.”

God in classical Christian theology is the First Cause, the absolute Being in which all other being participates. Yes, we also believe that He has made Himself known to us in revelation, and there are many Christians who don’t like the traditional metaphysical language I’ve used. But Christians do not believe that God is just some superhuman entity out there. We believe that He is the ultimate reality.

In other words, the question between theists and atheists is whether there is some reality that transcends STEM. When you reduce this to a question of whether there are certain nonhuman entities flitting around the universe, you show that you don’t understand classical theism at all.

Edwin

 

[Leela]

If I ran into a culture that believed in them, I would not tell them that they were foolish.

It not an issue of whether or not you should insult people, but it would be appropriate to ask why they believe in such things.

I am, you might say, an agnostic about these things (well, I’m closer to outright disbelief on unicorns), not an “atheist.”

Agnosticism is a separate question. Whether or not you think knowledge is possible is a separate issue from whether or not you think such things exist. I am not an agnostic since I think that if God exists, then it is possile to know it, but I don’t think God exists. It’s possible in the sense that anything is possible, and the existence of God can never be disproven, but I am very doubtful that any religion has it right about ultimate reality.

However, you make the typical atheist semantic mistake by equating God with “gods.”

God in classical Christian theology is the First Cause, the absolute Being in which all other being participates. Yes, we also believe that He has made Himself known to us in revelation, and there are many Christians who don’t like the traditional metaphysical language I’ve used. But Christians do not believe that God is just some superhuman entity out there. We believe that He is the ultimate reality.

If you equate God with ultimate reality, then of course ultimate reality exists so God exists, but Christians want to attach a personality as Yahweh to ultimate reality which I doubt exists.

In other words, the question between theists and atheists is whether there is some reality that transcends STEM. When you reduce this to a question of whether there are certain nonhuman entities flitting around the universe, you show that you don’t understand classical theism at all.

The idea that the universe only consists of STEM is itself neither space, time, energy, or mass. Relationships between these terms are neither space, time, energy, or mass. Love exists, but is none of these things. Consciousness is not these things, either. These terms may be part of our best attempts in understanding the immediate flux of life, but they are just concepts, they are not experience itself.

Certainly the universe has a creative aspect since it exists at all and has an evolutionary drive away from mechanistic patterns as life defies the determism of physical laws and ideas defy the constraints of biological life. But none of this is classical theism.

We don’t have theism until we imagine a spiritual realm that it is separate from the universe of everyday experience, and separate the creative aspect for the universe from the rest of the universe and attach a personality to it as an intelligent being that intervenes with the universe. We then still need to write myths about this god and later misread these myths as history and science (even though history had only just barely been invented and science would not be invented for a long time), and then we can say we have a theism.

This intelligent being sounds a lot like Zues, or Appollo, or Mithras, or Isis, or Vishnu to me. It is one of many historical gods. The difference is with the myths of other religions, we read them correctly as stories that tell us about human psychology and our attempts to relate to the eternal rather than as history, biography, and scientific cosmology.

 

[Contarini]

Leela,

Our discussion has gotten off topic, so I’m going to start a new thread.

Edwin

 

[fhansen]

The idea that the universe only consists of STEM is itself neither space, time, energy, or mass. Relationships between these terms are neither space, time, energy, or mass. Love exists, but is none of these things. Consciousness is not these things, either. These terms may be part of our best attempts in understanding the immediate flux of life, but they are just concepts, they are not experience itself.

No, this isn’t true. One can experience love-and it’s as real an experience as any other in life-it means to actually *know *love. This is an experience a human can be given of God and while it’s outside the norm, like I said it’s no less real for that.

 

[Leela]

No, this isn’t true. One can experience love-and it’s as real an experience as any other in life-it means to actually *know *love. This is an experience a human can be given of God and while it’s outside the norm, like I said it’s no less real for that.

I think you misunderstood, fhansen. I was trying to give examples of things that are indeed real but are not space, time, matter, or energy. We agree that love is among these very real things.

 

[twb1621]

What prophecies? I can’t tell what is supposed to have happened other than the second coming of Jesus within the generation of those he was speaking to which obviously did not happen. Can you give me one or two expamples of prophecies that you find interesting rather than simply cutting and pasting nonsense?

I gave you one of many propgacies to refer to and interpretations with links to related material. You refer to it as nonsense because you don’t put any effort into finding out what it refers to, how its related, or where it leads.

By disbelief in God is not founded on any more knowledge than your disbelief in fairies, elves, dwarves, unicorns, and leprachauns. I don’t claim to have any proof of the nonexistence of gods or unicorns. It is impossible to prove that such things don’t exist, but that does not mean that they do exist.

The majority of the human race believes in God, that should give you some initiative to seek knowledge of Him on your own. You seem to take all your questions, put them on a plate and then expect answers. You have to deal with one at a time. You know the only possibility of you ever believing is if you answer your own personal questions.

I accept the responsibility for my disbelief in God. I am just as concerned about burning in hell for my lack of belief in Jesus as you probably are about Kornaic claims that you will burn in hell for blieving in Jesus.

I’ve done my research and found my Faith with no doubts.

Salvation? What do I need to be saved from?

intentional disregard to the information available to you to start with. Again, you want the answers handed to you, not to make effort to find the truth.

Also, I study what Catholics and other religions believe much more than you probably study Islam. Shouldn’t you be worried? What if the Muslims are right?

I researched more than one belief system, we discussed that one before. Not worried by any means, I did what you refuse to do, learned the truth and repented for my ignorance. I am still learning and hope I will never believe to have reached an end to that. But to this worldy death, I am secure in my faith and relationship with our Lord.

Why are Catholics around here always trying to convince me that my life is meaningless? Sure, I have my ups and downs like everyone else, but meaningless???

Leela, I don’t know about “Catholics” as a whole but I figured all that out before I ever started searching for what the truth was and before I converted. That realization was my motive and it was not based on unhappiness or struggle, but on having… I had my success, at least based on the goals I set for myself. and no matter how high you get or important you think you are it means absolutely nothing beyond your own pride. If you think that anything made by man or any accomplishment you make means anything in and of itself, you are sucked in. You can’t own what this life actually has to offer because it is priceless and you can’t get it from anyone else but you can find it on your own if you look hard enough.

 

[Leela]

I gave you one of many propgacies to refer to and interpretations with links to related material. You refer to it as nonsense because you don’t put any effort into finding out what it refers to, how its related, or where it leads. .

I don’t know how else to say this. I keep asking for one prophecy that you think is interesting, and you keep telling me that you already told me. I honestly do not know what has been prophesized and come true that is so compelling to you. Can you give me just one Bible quote and YOUR explanation of what it means to YOU? I don’t have time to follow all your links and read pages of whatever the likes of this is supposed to be:

…4 [4-14] This section of the discourse deals with calamities in the world (⇒ Matthew 24:6-7) and in the church (⇒ Matthew 24:9-12). The former must happen before the end comes (⇒ Matthew 24:6), but they are only the beginning of the labor pains (⇒ Matthew 24:8). (It may be noted that the Greek word translated the end in ⇒ Matthew 24:6 and in ⇒ Matthew 24:13-14 is not the same as the phrase “the end of the age” in ⇒ Matthew 24:3 although the meaning is the same.) The latter are sufferings of the church, both from within and without, that will last until the gospel is preached . . . to all nations. Then the end will come and those who have endured the sufferings with fidelity will be saved (⇒ Matthew 24:13-14).
5 [6-7] The disturbances mentioned here are a commonplace of apocalyptic language, as is the assurance that they must happen (see ⇒ Daniel 2:28 LXX), for that is the plan of God. Kingdom against kingdom: see ⇒ Isaiah 19:2.
6 [8] The labor pains: the tribulations leading up to the end of the age are compared to the pains of a woman about to give birth. There is much attestation for rabbinic use of the phrase “the woes (or birth pains) of the Messiah” after the New Testament period, but in at least one instance it is attributed to a rabbi who lived in the late first century A.D. In this Jewish usage it meant the distress of the time preceding the coming of the Messiah; here, the labor pains precede the coming of the Son of Man in glory.
7 [9-12] Matthew has used ⇒ Mark 13:9-12 in his missionary discourse (⇒ Matthew 10:17-21) and omits it here. Besides the sufferings, including death, and the hatred of all nations that the disciples will have to endure, there will be worse affliction within the church itself. This is described in ⇒ Matthew 24:10-12, which are peculiar to Matthew. Will be led into sin: literally, “will be scandalized,” probably meaning that they will become apostates; see ⇒ Matthew 13:21 where “fall away” translates the same Greek word as here. Betray: in the Greek this is the same word as the hand over of ⇒ Matthew 24:9. The handing over to persecution and hatred from outside will have their counterpart within the church. False prophets: these are Christians; see the note on ⇒ Matthew 7:15-20. Evildoing: see ⇒ Matthew 7:23. Because of the apocalyptic nature of much of this discourse, the literal meaning of this description of the church should not be pressed too hard. However, there is reason to think that Matthew’s addition of these verses reflects in some measure the condition of his community. …

 

[fhansen]

I think you misunderstood, fhansen. I was trying to give examples of things that are indeed real but are not space, time, matter, or energy. We agree that love is among these very real things.

Sorry, I apparently *had *misunderstood. In any case, love is one aspect of reality that points to something transcending stem, IMO.

 

[twb1621]

I don’t know how else to say this. I keep asking for one prophecy that you think is interesting, and you keep telling me that you already told me. I honestly do not know what has been prophesized and come true that is so compelling to you. Can you give me just one Bible quote and YOUR explanation of what it means to YOU? I don’t have time to follow all your links and read pages of whatever the likes of this is supposed to be:
…

I have divided it for you to refer to but you would then need to compare this example to the life of Jesus in the New Testament.

This is just a sample of the many revolations from God to Isaiah as prophecies of Christ and what He would experience, this being approximately 700 years before Jesus birth.

Is 52:13—53:12

13 3 See, my servant shall prosper; he shall be raised high and greatly exalted. 14 Even as many were amazed at him - so marred was his look beyond that of man, and his appearance beyond that of mortals - 15 So shall he startle many nations, because of him kings shall stand speechless; For those who have not been told shall see, those who have not heard shall ponder it.

Interpretation for this verse;
3 ⇒ 52:13-⇒ 53:12] The last of the four “Servant-of-the-Lord” oracles. An extraordinary description of the sinless Servant (Jesus) , who by his voluntary suffering atones for the sins of his people, and saves them from just punishment at the hands of God. Only in Jesus Christ is the prophecy perfectly fulfilled. See Chapter 53 Verse 12 below;
CH 53 12 reads as follows;
12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

1 Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.

**1**Interpretation for this verse; [2] Only God appreciated his Servant’s (Jesus) true greatness.

---

3 2 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
2 Interpretation for this verse; [3] Because he (Jesus) suffered, he was regarded as a sinner and therefore as one to be spurned.

---

 

[twb1621]

4 3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. 6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. 7 Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth. 8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people, 9 A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
3 Interpretation for this verse; [4-6] He did indeed suffer but it was for the sins of mankind, and through his sufferings men are healed.

---

10 4 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him. 11 Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear. 12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.
4 Interpretation for this verse; [10-12] Because he (Jesus) fulfilled the divine will by suffering for the sins of others, the Servant will be rewarded by the Lord. See the light: enjoy happiness. This line may originally have read, “he shall drink and eat to the full” - at the thanksgiving sacrifice at which he shall divide the spoils (⇒ 53:12).

 

[Leela]

See, my servant shall prosper; he shall be raised high and greatly exalted. 14 Even as many were amazed at him - so marred was his look beyond that of man, and his appearance beyond that of mortals - 15 So shall he startle many nations, because of him kings shall stand speechless; For those who have not been told shall see, those who have not heard shall ponder it.

The above sounds nothing like Jesus to me. What am I missing?

]12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

If Jesus (who is God) really did win pardon from God (who is Jesus), we have no way of knowing. How could we say whether or not this prophecy was fulfilled?

1 Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.

Huh? Is this about Jesus?

He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

This just sounds nothing like Jesus.

 

[Leela]

4 3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. 6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.

If you say so, but again, there is no way to know if this prophecy was fulfilled or not.
twb1621;5135169:

7 Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.

My God, why have you forsaken me?

8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people, 9 A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.

A burial place among the wicked?

If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him. 11 Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear. 12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

There is no way to know if such prophecies were fulfilled. So many of these can never be used as justifiying faith in Jesus. It is only those who already have faith who could see these prophecies as fulfilled in Jesus.

 

[twb1621]

The above sounds nothing like Jesus to me. What am I missing?

If Jesus (who is God) really did win pardon from God (who is Jesus), we have no way of knowing. How could we say whether or not this prophecy was fulfilled?

Huh? Is this about Jesus?

This just sounds nothing like Jesus.

Wow… Without meaning to sound sarcastic, it appears you have a great deal to learn in order to be able to even attempt to understand the bible let alone have prophecies put in front of you. That is, if you are honest in your responses. If you decide you want to learn, you might consider adult Christian Educational courses to first get the basics of it. I still tend to think you are just doing a thesis on Catholicism but that wouldn’t be right, would it?

 

[Dameedna]

What she can be, if she’s baptized, is a Catholic. By virtue of her baptism, she receives the Holy Spirit which awakens the faith in her. (CCC 683).

This is a catholic belief. It is you who believes this is what will happen, not your daughter. Meaning, that she’s not 'catholic" anymore than a child is muslim just because you believe in a gift from the holy spirit. It is simply a belief you hold, not her and it is a choice you are making for her instead of letting her decide and a label you are giving her in accordance with your beliefs.

You can’t get around what the OP is asking, by saying “well this is what I believe, therefore I’m not labelling my child incorrectly”.

My parents did not baptise me, because they respected me enough to let me make-up my own mind. They allowed me to be exposed to that which I was interested in from a religious perspective, but they never told me what to believe. I didn’t know my mother was an athiest till I was 15.

Now that…is respecting ones child and not putting labels onto them because of a religious belief or choice made by a parent.

 

[PRmerger]

This is a catholic belief.

Yes!

It is you who believes this is what will happen, not your daughter. Meaning, that she’s not 'catholic"

It is YOUR belief that what makes one Catholic is that one believes certain teachings. Why do I have to subscribe to any atheists’ proposal about what it means to be Catholic?

**We believe that when you’re baptized you become Catholic. ** You cannot change that any more than you can say, “You can’t call your daughter Billy because she’s a girl.” I can because I get to decide what I call my family. Not you.

 

[Pier]

This is a catholic belief. It is you who believes this is what will happen, not your daughter. Meaning, that she’s not 'catholic" anymore than a child is muslim just because you believe in a gift from the holy spirit. It is simply a belief you hold, not her and it is a choice you are making for her instead of letting her decide and a label you are giving her in accordance with your beliefs.

You can’t get around what the OP is asking, by saying “well this is what I believe, therefore I’m not labelling my child incorrectly”.

My parents did not baptise me, because they respected me enough to let me make-up my own mind. They allowed me to be exposed to that which I was interested in from a religious perspective, but they never told me what to believe. I didn’t know my mother was an athiest till I was 15.

Now that…is respecting ones child and not putting labels onto them because of a religious belief or choice made by a parent.

Did your parents teach you to respect others’ beliefs, as well?

 

[PRmerger]

Did your parents teach you to respect others’ beliefs, as well?

Well, if they were being consistent they would NOT have taught her that. They should have let her make up her own mind and not forced their beliefs of respecting others on her!

It would be interesting to see a family that really practices this belief that one should not force their beliefs on their children.

-I can see their 4 yr old running around grabbing other people’s food at restaurants and the parents not stopping her because she has to decide for herself what’s right.

-I can see their 4 yr old screaming that she doesn’t want her shots at the pediatrician’s office and the parents saying, “Well, that’s what she decided!”

-I can see their 4 yr old playing in the middle of the street because that’s where she wants to play.

Imagine this world where parents don’t force their beliefs on children! :bigyikes: