The Liberal Agnostic Secular Humanist Four-Year Old

[Leela]

Yes!

It is YOUR belief that what makes one Catholic is that one believes certain teachings. Why do I have to subscribe to any atheists’ proposal about what it means to be Catholic?

**We believe that when you’re baptized you become Catholic. ** You cannot change that any more than you can say, “You can’t call your daughter Billy because she’s a girl.” I can because I get to decide what I call my family. Not you.

And the Muslims believe that when you are born, you become Muslim. But don’t you think it would be a little more than misleading and extremely presumptuous for me to refer to you or your children as Muslims?

 

[PRmerger]

And the Muslims believe that when you are born, you become Muslim. But don’t you think it would be a little more than misleading and extremely presumptuous for me to refer to you or your children as Muslims?

That doesn’t bother me one bit. I don’t consider them Muslims, but if Muslims want to consider my children part of their family, I’m all for it!

Why are you presenting this fact as if it’s contrary to your premise? Shouldn’t you be rejoicing that Muslims consider our children Muslims as this will prevent them from targeting our children in the so-called Holy Wars?

 

[Leela]

That doesn’t bother me one bit. I don’t consider them Muslims, but if Muslims want to consider my children part of their family, I’m all for it!

Why are you presenting this fact as if it’s contrary to your premise? Shouldn’t you be rejoicing that Muslims consider our children Muslims as this will prevent them from targeting our children in the so-called Holy Wars?

My premise has always been that it is absurd to label children who are incapable of having such beliefs based on their parents’ religious beliefs. I am a Democrat and try to teach my children democratic values, but it would be an insult to their personal dignity to label them Democrats or liberals. They have developing minds of their own. They will have to decide such issues for themselves when they are able.

 

[Pier]

My premise

Exactly - these are* your* beliefs…

has always been that it is absurd to label children who are incapable of having such beliefs based on their parents’ religious beliefs. I am a Democrat and try to teach my children democratic values, but it would be an insult to their personal dignity to label them Democrats or liberals. They have developing minds of their own. They will have to decide such issues for themselves when they are able.

Hmmm - so do you also allow them to decide for themselves which stranger is dangerous, & to cross the road whenever they feel it’s right for them to do so? Do they go to school? What if you don’t agree with the way a school presents history to them, will they be allowed to go?

 

[PRmerger]

My premise has always been that it is absurd to label children who are incapable of having such beliefs based on their parents’ religious beliefs.

Ok. But then you developed another premise which was something about the Holy Wars and children being targets because they were labeled.

Presumably Muslims labeling our children Muslims would then be a good thing, yes? This would eliminate them from being targets.

Also, could you cite a source for this? I’ve never heard that Muslims believe all children are born Muslim…

 

[Thales]

Forgive me for joining the conversation so late, but what exactly are we trying to discover here? Is it whether a parent has the right to label their child such and such or whether the labeling of a thing, person, or otherwise makes them what the label dictates? I can call myself a Catholic, Christian, or democrat, believe it, but not follow the precepts of such a label. Am I truly what I say I am? It seems only God can judge one’s heart in this matter, likewise we can’t know if our child becomes, or is, what we say they are by a label we give them. However, as a parent and guardian, enfolding the child into the family unit by its nature of being a child, it is perfectly acceptable to include it within the religion or political association of the family, regardless of their insufficient ability to believe or reason. When the child comes of age and reason to form or adopt their own system of belief they can label themselves and disown the ones of their childhood.

I think Dawkins falsely assumes an autonomous individualism of the child. Though a distinct person, the child is a part of the family body, as Christ is a distinct person, He is also distinctly a part of the Trinity and is God. The child assumes the label of the family not because the parent holds those beliefs but because the family as a whole is encompassed within that belief system.

I also think it is a non sequitur to say it is an “insult to their personal dignity” to label. An insult would infer a value judgment was being made. A negative label is insulting, some labels can be inherently positive, others relative to ones views on the labels connotation.