The lies about Thanksgiving

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LegoGE1947 said:
It was a mentally challenged female follower of Darby that “had a vision” This started the ball rolling on the Rapture business. Then C. I. Schofield picked this stuff up and made his intensely popular study Bible with dispensational study notes. That is how it really took off. Many Protestants seem to believe that the footnotes in that Bible are as inspired as the Bible text.🤷
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Yes, and Scofield was a lawyer, not even a Bible scholar. what caused it to catch fire was that the commentary was printed along with actual Bible verses and one could cross-reference as the same time which was innovative. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_I._Scofield
interesting is that his first wife who he abandoned was Catholic. But still we will have to blame it on the Pilgrims anyway since the original “visions” were under Darby.
 
Well, I think we are going to have to revise the thinking here, Plymouth Brethren were not the decedents of the separatist Pilgrims but formed under the tutelage of John Darby.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Just reading the wikipedia link (and I’ve read a number of books about the rapture) makes one wonder how did anyone follow this crack pot. So for now we can’t blame those Pilgrims for the rapture.
 
I thought it interesting that the woman who originated this Rapture doctrine was the leader of a seance that Darby attended. Sure tells me where the teaching comes from!🤷:eek:
 
revert_jen said:
I thought we were treating them like Bush 43. We can blame 'em for anything. 😃

–Jen
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Can’t blame the original settlers of this country for the Rapture, any more than we can blame modern-day Jews for the Crucifixion! The Rapture teaching only entered the church less than 200 years ago and the pilgrims came here 200 years prior to that!🤷
 
LegoGE1947 said:
Can’t blame the original settlers of this country for the Rapture, any more than we can blame modern-day Jews for the Crucifixion! The Rapture teaching only entered the church less than 200 years ago and the pilgrims came here 200 years prior to that!🤷
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I wasn’t trying to imply that they were actually responsible, just that we could blame them anyway. 🙂

–Jen
 
a couple of years ago, we had a chance to visit Plymouth Mass, which included the Mayflower, Plimouth plantation reenactment and all the rest. What really struck me was how small that boat was and the 100 some Pilgrims were all together below on the second deck.When one actually see how small and what it must have been like to be crammed altogether on a dark, unheated deck with men, women and children (one was born on that boat), you come away and understand why the story of the pilgrims has captured histories attention and imagination. In one of the museums, I forget which one, there was a big chart with all the people that came over, grouped in their families and then the chart whited out how many of them died that first year. When you go to the museum in town (up the hill) and observe some of the actual items from them, one comes away with a renewed respect for these people. Yet despite all their losses and hardships in coming to a totally new world, they never gave up their faith and beliefs and conviction that what they were doing was in God’s plan. What is sad really is that instead of looking at these people as inspirations which is what most of our country had done in the past, we want to nick pick about them as hypocrites because they didn’t grant others “religious” freedom when in fact “religious freedom” was not found anywhere in the world in the 1600’s. Instead of seeing them as a stepping stone towards our own constitutional government, we just write them off and want to place blame on them for the most ridiculous of ideas. I’m not sure if I would want to be crammed on that boat with a 100 others and no privacy only to come to a vast wilderness and more than half die off the first year. Yet, they turned around after help from Squanto and went on to celebrate a thanksgiving harvest that has become the most American of holidays.
 
Very well said. Here we sit in our comfortable warm homes, practicing a rather convenient faith, kidding ourselves that we’re better than them…🤷
 
I have to admit that I wasn’t differentiating between the Pilgrims and the Puritans myself earlier, though I knew and should have remembered the differences. I’m glad several posters pointed out that we were mixing up two groups of early English settlers.

So that leads me to ask: Other than refusing election to freeman status to Quakers, did the Pilgrims actually persecute people of other religious groups? I know the early Puritans were rough on non-Puritans or disobedient Puritans, but what did the Pilgrims themselves, when they had the governance of their own colonies, actually do to those of differing beliefs? What are the facts?
 
AbideWithMe said:
I have to admit that I wasn’t differentiating between the Pilgrims and the Puritans myself earlier, though I knew and should have remembered the differences. I’m glad several posters pointed out that we were mixing up two groups of early English settlers.

So that leads me to ask: Other than refusing election to freeman status to Quakers, did the Pilgrims actually persecute people of other religious groups? I know the early Puritans were rough on non-Puritans or disobedient Puritans, but what did the Pilgrims themselves, when they had the governance of their own colonies, actually do to those of differing beliefs? What are the facts?
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I think that is a good question. I am not as familiar with the beginning of the Quaker movement and its start in the US. Maybe being a Quaker, you can explain some of the beginnings from you perspective. My understanding of the Pilgrims is that they saw themselves as the new Israel and what they wanted to set up in the beginning was more of a theocracy similar to ancient Israel which would mean there wasn’t room for other religious ideas. I know I’ve read that they saw the first thanksgiving celebration as similar to the Jewish feast of booths which is likewise a fall harvest thanksgiving festival. I would imagine that Quaker ideals would be quite the departure from the Pilgrim and even the Puritans. While the Quakers were not allowed to vote, there was room to where they could move and start their own colonies like William Penn did.
 
Abide,
one thing I like about CAF is that it helps me research and expand. I just looked up Quakers on Wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers, and as you read the article, it stated that the Quakers first came to the US around 1680, which is well after the first Pilgrims. Let me know if the rest accurately described Society of Friends.
 
It’s also interesting to note that the rapture idea came in 1830, along with Mormonism. Seems Satan was a busy boy.
 
AbideWithMe said:
I agree, we can’t really relate to how they perceived society and religion.

I have little doubt I would have been hung as a Quaker in New England, if not burned as a witch. :eek:
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robwar said:
I think that is a good question. I am not as familiar with the beginning of the Quaker movement and its start in the US. Maybe being a Quaker, you can explain some of the beginnings from you perspective. My understanding of the Pilgrims is that they saw themselves as the new Israel and what they wanted to set up in the beginning was more of a theocracy similar to ancient Israel which would mean there wasn’t room for other religious ideas. I know I’ve read that they saw the first thanksgiving celebration as similar to the Jewish feast of booths which is likewise a fall harvest thanksgiving festival. I would imagine that Quaker ideals would be quite the departure from the Pilgrim and even the Puritans. While the Quakers were not allowed to vote, there was room to where they could move and start their own colonies like William Penn did.
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Oops, sorry for being confusing. I’m not a Quaker, but some of my ancestors were Welsh Quakers who came here to Pennsylvania, so I was imaging what it might have been like to be them if they had happened to go to the Massachusetts Bay Colony before coming to PA.

And regardless of what anyone here thinks, I’m not a witch, either!😛

There were some Quakers in New England by the mid 1650’s, but I think they were more or less run out of town under threat of their lives, if I recall correctly.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Oops, sorry for being confusing. I’m not a Quaker, but some of my ancestors were Welsh Quakers who came here to Pennsylvania, so I was imaging what it might have been like to be them if they had happened to go to the Massachusetts Bay Colony before coming to PA.

And regardless of what anyone here thinks, I’m not a witch, either!😛

There were some Quakers in New England by the mid 1650’s, but I think they were more or less run out of town under threat of their lives, if I recall correctly.
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Which witch is which?:confused:
 
Robwar, you seem to really have it in for me, why? Your distaste almost seems nearly palpable. You really know nothing about me.

Yes it is true that freedom of religion existed nowhere in the16th century. But we have moved on since. And what I was taught in grade school posited there was and that is why pilgrims supposedly came here.

Just don’t get the unprovoked meaness. :confused:
 
Hey, Andrewstx—Not meaning to reply for Robwar, but since I think she made some good points, I’ll say I wouldn’t have been agreeing with her posts if I thought she was being mean at all to you. Though I’ve had some moments to squabbling a little with you, I like you and I certainly would not have supported any posts from anyone which seemed to be coming from a place of meanness towards you.

I thought her posts gave another perspective, which is part of being on a discussion forum. I know things can get rough here sometimes, but I don’t think there was any personally-directed meanness in Robwar’s posts.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Hey, Andrewstx—Not meaning to reply for Robwar, but since I think she made some good points, I’ll say I wouldn’t have been agreeing with her posts if I thought she was being mean at all to you. Though I’ve had some moments to squabbling a little with you, I like you and I certainly would not have supported any posts from anyone which seemed to be coming from a place of meanness towards you.

I thought her posts gave another perspective, which is part of being on a discussion forum. I know things can get rough here sometimes, but I don’t think there was any personally-directed meanness in Robwar’s posts.
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ROBwar is a woman? Who knew? I could easily, very easily have been mistaken and sorry if I was. But her postings just came across as somewhat hostile to me.
 
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