The limits of the Saints

[Atemi]

This thread is about the saints.

No, it is a thread about the Catholic teaching about praying to the saints.

It is all tied together as we all know.

**Another Catholic poster said that we (believers) are all saints.

So if believers here on earth are not saints, that means they are out of the communion of saints?**

Clearly, that’s not true. The saints in Heaven are in full communion with Christ, and we, on earth, strive for communion with His Body through the church. Because we are not full of God’s Grace, we are prone to sin, and are therefore not in full communion with Him.

So we believers here are not saints and not in the communion of saints?

Is this RC teaching?

I was not addressing the OP in the post you are responding to. I was posting in response to another poster.

Another poster who WAS responding to the OP – and you responded by baiting them with an off-topic comment that you obviously knew would draw attention to you – which seems to be your modus operandi.

No.

That other poster was responding to me, not the OP:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2057065&postcount=1

Please pay better attention before attacking another human being.

Maybe your thread is set on linear mode…

And you complain (below) about how non-Catholics are treated here? It’s not non-Catholics who receive backlash from their rude, off-topic, and condescending posts – it’s TROLLS, regardless of their religious background.

Calling me names is not necessary.

More Christian charity, at least pretended for the lurkers, would be appreciated.

This has nothing to do with your being welcome here, as you allege below. It has nothing to do with your not being Catholic. It has EVERYTHING to do with the manner in which you speak to people, the disdain with which you dispute Catholic doctrine, and your obvious lack of interest in real, enlightening debate about things Catholic with which you disagree.

We ridicule that which we fear or do not understand, my friend. I’m through responding to your posts, no matter how inflammatory they may be, until such time that you show the good people here the courtesy of discussing topics like an adult and observing common sense guidelines about propriety.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

I make no secret that I am a non-Catholic Christian, but this is an Apologetics forum where the faith is discussed.

You are right. The least you respond to my posts, it seems the better for all involved. I never invited you to to begin with.

…

 

[Eileen_T]

We ridicule that which we fear or do not understand, my friend. I’m through responding to your posts, no matter how inflammatory they may be, until such time that you show the good people here the courtesy of discussing topics like an adult and observing common sense guidelines about propriety.

Peace,
Dante

IMO, Atemi is here because, having rejected Catholicism, he is scared he might have made a mistake, subconsciously at least, and seeks to justify his decision. I have heard/read many priests and lay apologists that think people who do this (become anti-Catholic) have rejected a certain Teaching (eg contraception, abortion, divorce/remarriage) and, because they fear the Church is right and they are wrong, have to try and prove otherwise.

My personal experience corrobates this view.

 

[Atemi]

Perhaps you did not read far enough down the page. This is from that site. “When did the Church start honoring saints? By the year 100 A.D., Christians were honoring other Christians who had died, and asking for their intercession. Many people think that honoring saints was something the Church set up later, but it was part of Christianity from the very beginning. As a matter of fact, this practice came from a long-standing tradition in the Jewish faith of honoring prophets and holy people with shrines. The first saints were martyrs, people who had given up their lives for the Faith in the persecution of Christians.”

I am sorry again, but I asked when was the special class of saints (“Saints”) first discovered.

Honoring those that have passed on, especially in martryrdom, does not mean that all those folks were guaranteed in Heaven.

Like you posted earlier:

“the title of saint tells us that the person lived a holy life, is in heaven…”

How did all those early Christians, from all over the world, know who was a Saint in Heaven and who was not?

…

 

[Atemi]

Most of the non-Catholic forums ban us. I tried to register with one, and because I said my religion is Catholic, they banned me from even joining, although they did not specify in their rules that Catholics were banned.

So maybe this is my comeupance as a non-Catholic here?

 

[Atemi]

I have heard/read many priests and lay apologists that think people who do this (become anti-Catholic)

Please do not call others names and use epithets to attack their persons.

 

[Eileen_T]

Please do not call others names and use epithets to attack their persons.

Did you feel it applied to you?

 

[Techno2000]

IMO, Atemi is here because, having rejected Catholicism, he is scared he might have made a mistake, subconsciously at least, and seeks to justify his decision. I have heard/read many priests and lay apologists that think people who do this (become anti-Catholic) have rejected a certain Teaching (eg contraception, abortion, divorce/remarriage) and, because they fear the Church is right and they are wrong, have to try and prove otherwise.

My personal experience corrobates this view.

That seems to fit my brother in law to the T.

 

[jemfinch]

I find it hard to believe that Christian in Heaven would not pray for us simply because we did not specifically ask them.

Are you claiming that Christians in heaven are omniscient, then, and that they know, even without our asking them, what specifically we want them to pray for?

Jeremy

 

[jemfinch]

So maybe this is my comeupance as a non-Catholic here?

Not at all. I’ve been here quite some time, and have seen a great many non-Catholics remain members who have been members since long before I joined.

If you’re banned, it won’t be because you’re non-Catholic: it will be because it seems that every thread you touch, whether through your own fault or others’ or some combination of both, turns into a bickering, arguing mess.

I was quite disappointed to see allischalmers’ thread get closed because of the off-topic bickering you started.

If you have issues with the Catholic Church, you should voice them in their appropriate threads. For instance, you have an issue with the Catholic use of the term “Saint” to apply to those people canonized by the Church. That’s fine: I’m aware of many people who’ve had that issue. But this thread is not the place to hold a debate concerning that issue. You should start a new thread for it, and stop distracting people from the original question in this thread. In allischalmers’ thread, you expressed an issue with the Catholic claim that the Bible needs an interpreter. That whole debate ought to have been moved to a separate thread when you saw that it was overwhelming the discussion related to the original post of the thread.

In short, you can’t consider each thread to be your own personal apologetical playground where you challenge any or all Catholic beliefs. If you want to challenge our beliefs, there are many here who will debate you until their fingers are tired and calloused, but you need to do it in an appropriate thread, rather than continually hijacking others’ threads.

Jeremy

 

[Todd_Easton]

All this first assumes, of course, that any of those one prays to is indeed definitely in Heaven and is taking prayer requests.

The modern canonization process by the Catholic Church officially declares a person a saint in heaven involves an examination of the holiness of the person’s life and at least two certified miracles attributed to the person’s intercession after his death. So before the Church officially declares a person a saint in heaven, they are already known to be answering prayer requests.

 

[Atemi]

Are you claiming that Christians in heaven are omniscient, then, and that they know, even without our asking them, what specifically we want them to pray for?

No. Let me repeat:

That is why if those dead in Christ are indeed praying for us, then they will pray for us no less or no more whether we ask them to or not.

IF they are indeed praying for us, and they are free of all our shortcomings, then they are praying for us exactly as much as we need, how often we need, and exactly for what we need.

I find no reason to think that they are waiting for others to ask them to pray before they do.

…

 

[Atemi]

The modern canonization process by the Catholic Church officially declares a person a saint in heaven involves an examination of the holiness of the person’s life and at least two certified miracles attributed to the person’s intercession after his death. So before the Church officially declares a person a saint in heaven, they are already known to be answering prayer requests.

I am familiar with the canonization process, but at what point does God tell the Church who is definitely in Heaven and how does that message come?

 

[Steadfast_love]

I am familiar with the canonization process, but at what point does God tell the Church who is definitely in Heaven and how does that message come?

Atemi,

That confused me too until I realized that that “Canonized” means “definiately in heaven.” Try reading catholic.org/saints/faq.php again armed with this new understanding.

Run to win the race!

 

[RNRobert]

Here’s another verse from Scripture regarding the saints in heaven:

When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar %between%the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, %between%before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been. (Revelaton 6:9-11)

In these verses, we see that the martyrs are aware of events happening on heaven and earth.

 

[RNRobert]

Also, the Orthodox Churches have declared a number of their holy men and women to be saints, but I think the process is slightly different than that followed by the Catholic Church.

 

[LilyM]

I am familiar with the canonization process, but at what point does God tell the Church who is definitely in Heaven and how does that message come?

If you are indeed familiar with the canonisation process then you would know that this happens in two ways.

The first is plain use of human reason. A thorough and minute examination of how the person lived and died, whether their life and death are in conformity with the example set us by Christ. This can give us near-certainty, but not complete. There are many many candidates who are rejected at this stage, often on the basis of lack of such evidence.

Secondly is the occurrence of at least two independently investigated and verified miracles that are directly linked to intercession from that candidate for sainthood - usually cures of disease that totally go against the accepted natural course and progression of such diseases. Again there are plenty of cases that have stalled at this stage - either no miracles or only one have occurred.

Both these conditions having been fulfilled, the person is then declared a capital S saint - not of course in the sense that only those people so declared are in heaven, but that it has pleased God to point these particular individuals out to us as models of what we call ‘heroic sanctity’ such that they are fitting rolemodels for us.

Remember that in its 2,000 years there have been roughly 10,000 Saints declared. That’s a whoppingly huge total of 5 per year. And most of these cases take a century or longer to complete. The church is never in a hurry to canonise anyone unworthily.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Atemi, forgive me if I was uncharitable, but the manner in which you speak to people and the way you consistently hijack threads is unacceptable. I agree with the responses above that suggest you open your own threads to debate these issues – since once again, we are not attempting to answer the OP’s question.

I rescind my intention never to respond to you posts; I overreacted because I was angry with you. I’ll engage you in debate, but please do it in the right manner. You frequently exhort others to treat you with charity; please endeavor to do the same.

Peace,
Dante

 

[VociMike]

That is not mocking Catholic teaching.
…
My points remain.

What remains, as constant as the rising and setting of the sun, is your antagonism and mockery, disguised (poorly) as serious discussion.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

That is why if those dead in Christ are indeed praying for us, then they will pray for us no less or no more whether we ask them to or not.
…

That would defeat free will.

The thing about asking the saints to pray for us is that it is really about asking the saints to pray with us.

Asking the saints to pray with us requires the exercise of free will on our part. Why? Because we choose to do our part in that joint prayer venture.

So why is it a good idea to ask the saints to pray with us?

1. Who will pray with us when we are ‘alone’?
2. Jesus tells us that effective prayers takes place when two or more are gathered together in His Name.
3. Jesus tells us that the prayers or the righteous avail much. We know that the saints are righteous. With all other humans, some questions as to their righteousness remain.
4. The saints, because they are holy, will not pray ‘soulish’ prayers. Can you say the same for buddy down the street?

 

[water]

No. Let me repeat:

That is why if those dead in Christ are indeed praying for us, then they will pray for us no less or no more whether we ask them to or not.

IF they are indeed praying for us, and they are free of all our shortcomings, then they are praying for us exactly as much as we need, how often we need, and exactly for what we need.

I find no reason to think that they are waiting for others to ask them to pray before they do.

…

well, at least you think about the Saints in Heaven praying for us. That is a good start. If you believe they are praying for us, would you believe they know what they pray for us? all they just pray a certain general prayers. Some people don’t even think they can pray for us.

Anyhow, your explanation is not right. Are you forgetting the Lord’s Prayer who Jesus taught us how to pray, my friend?

What is the point of praying to God if you know God knows everything?

What is the point of you asking your family and friends to pray for you if God already know all you want?

What is it that God want you to talk and pray to Him?