The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

[simple_soul]

As I posted in the other thread. To HOPE for the salvation of mankind, or to PRAY for that, is very different from it literally happening. We do this because we have a heart for God and sharing his truth with all mankind.

Would Hitler and the many others like him be included?

Why couldn’t they be? Do you not believe they could have received the graces to repent as they lay there dying and accepted to be purified like Blessed John Paul II stated needs to be done for a soul before dying?
And if you do how would they obtain these Graces?

 

[PTL]

If the Catholic Church has never taught it then why does she teach about the Salvation of Mankind? What is the point of even mentioning or talking about it if it is not something she teaches us?

The Church, after God’s own heart, **desires **the entire mankind to be saved.

The desire for all to be saved is different from saying every person in the world will be saved. When using the term “universal salvation”, it sounds that it means everyone will be saved and that is simply not the Church’s teaching. Unfortunately, some souls will be lost.

I hope you read what I said as what I meant to say.

 

[simple_soul]

The Church does not teach the salvation of mankind in the sense that everyone is actually saved. When Christ died, it won universal redemption for all human beings, meaning that the gap between God and humanity that had been created by original sin was bridged and all people are potentially capable of salvation. Redemption happened corporatly which means it applies to all people without exception, and this is what Pope Francis was talking about. We are all children of God, all can do good, all are equally loved by God thanks to our resemption.

Salvation is individual, we could potentially all be saved, but not all of us actually are saved because some of us reject Gods offer of salvation. Our redemption was Gods loving act that made our salvation possible, and it gave the “power” or choice to us to accept or reject salvation. Think of it this way, we are all redeemed right now, we wont know if we individually are saved until death.

The only knowledge we have for sure of who is saved vs who isn’t is that the Saints are all saved for sure. The Church has also formally condemned universal salvation so we know for sure that not everyone is saved. Beyond that we do not know for sure who is and isnt saved.

What Pope Francis was re-iterating was the Churchs doctrine on redemption, he didnt say anything new. What he said is admittedly confusing if you dont know the difference between redemption and salvation.

I really wish you would please stop throwing in your last line I know that and understand that and I am not and have never said I thought anything like that. Please stop implying that I am.

You mentioned here that the Church condemned universal salvation. Would you mind directing me to where I might read about it?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Why couldn’t they be? Do you not believe they could have received the graces to repent as they lay there dying and accepted to be purified like Blessed John Paul II stated needs to be done for a soul before dying?
And if you do how would they obtain these Graces?

I won’t speculate on them. Deathbed confessions are for God to sort out. The thief on the cross had what it took which I think can safely be said to have faith in Christ and his redemptive power? Seek forgiveness sincerely, and be baptized (by desire at least).

Such a person would have a tremendous amount if purgation I would think.

 

[simple_soul]

The Church, after God’s own heart, **desires **the entire mankind to be saved.

The desire for all to be saved is different from saying every person in the world will be saved. When using the term “universal salvation”, it sounds that it means everyone will be saved and that is simply not the Church’s teaching. Unfortunately, some souls will be lost.

I hope you read what I said as what I meant to say.

Ok how do we know some souls will be lost and exactly what does being lost actually mean?

 

[McCall1981]

Why couldn’t they be? Do you not believe they could have received the graces to repent as they lay there dying and accepted to be purified like Blessed John Paul II stated needs to be done for a soul before dying?
And if you do how would they obtain these Graces?

Its true that in any individual case we dont know whether that person was saved or not. Any person could potentially receive grace right before they die, even someone like Hitler. So yes we should hope and pray for each individual that they will be saved, we just know that not everyone will be.

Again the only specific things we know about salvation are that the Saints are saved for sure, and that not eveyone is saved. That leaves a lot of room for wondering if perhaps most people are saved, or maybe very few are saved, etc, but that kind if thing is conjecture.

 

[PTL]

Ok how do we know some souls will be lost and exactly what does being lost actually mean?

So are you saying the hell is empty? Even the Bible did not say no one goes to hell.

 

[McCall1981]

I really wish you would please stop throwing in your last line I know that and understand that and I am not and have never said I thought anything like that. Please stop implying that I am.

You mentioned here that the Church condemned universal salvation. Would you mind directing me to where I might read about it?

Universal salvation, known as Apocatastasis, was formally condemned at the Council of Constantinople, in 543. From the Catholic encyclopedîa:

“In any case, the doctrine (Apocatastasis) was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”

newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

 

[McCall1981]

I really wish you would please stop throwing in your last line I know that and understand that and I am not and have never said I thought anything like that. Please stop implying that I am.

You mentioned here that the Church condemned universal salvation. Would you mind directing me to where I might read about it?

Im not sure which line you are referring to here, but my apologies if anything I said upset you.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I really wish you would please stop throwing in your last line I know that and understand that and I am not and have never said I thought anything like that. Please stop implying that I am.

You mentioned here that the Church condemned universal salvation. Would you mind directing me to where I might read about it?

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=43802

Universalism is a heresy because it is a half truth. Christ did die for all, but the universalist only holds on to that part of the truth. He denies the other half of the full truth, that not everyone will accept that grace and therefore some will go to hell.

It is a sentimentalist heresy because it is based not on clear thinking or logic or the authority of Church teaching or the catechism or the Sacred Scriptures, for there is no support anywhere for universalism in the Catholic faith. Instead it is based on people’s longing to be nice and ‘not hurt anyone’s feelings’ and the syrupy sentiment that, “God is too loving to send anyone to hell.”

The effects of universalism on the church are catastrophic. It’s not real hard to understand. People aren’t dumb. If everyone is going to be saved, then why bother to go to church? If everyone is going to be saved there is no such thing as mortal sin. If everyone is going to be saved there is no need for evangelism. If everyone is going to be saved there is no need to feed the hungry, become a priest, build the church and become a saint.

Of all the various Hydra heads of modernism, universalism is probably the most insidious and diabolical and destructive of them all. It is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It’s sweetness and light and sentimentality and underneath it’s poison.

---

Fr Dwight Longenecker is parish priest of Our Lady of the Rosary Parish and Chaplain to St Joseph’s Catholic School in Greenville, South Carolina. Read his blog and connect to his website at www.dwightlongenecker.com

 

[simple_soul]

Oh boy… I can see more clearly now why I am so not the one who can sort this all out. This is going to take a few life times to try and understand and there is so much info to try and read to understand it. I know I am not going to have time in my life to read it all and no I do not trust any of you just telling me this is what the church teaches because I have spent more than half my life around people who always like to take one or two specific things the church says and then twist what the Church is saying into what they want to believe it says with out looking at everything the Church teaches together. Looking at the whole picture and context of everything to figure this out and digest it to explain it adequately is beyond my slope. I’ll leave it in the Church’s hands.

Thank you all for the references and help and please keep me in your prayers and know that you are all in mine.

 

[irishpatrick]

Oh boy… I can see more clearly now why I am so not the one who can sort this all out. This is going to take a few life times to try and understand and there is so much info to try and read to understand it. I know I am not going to have time in my life to read it all and no I do not trust any of you just telling me this is what the church teaches because I have spent more than half my life around people who always like to take one or two specific things the church says and then twist what the Church is saying into what they want to believe it says with out looking at everything the Church teaches together. Looking at the whole picture and context of everything to figure this out and digest it to explain it adequately is beyond my slope. I’ll leave it in the Church’s hands.

Thank you all for the references and help and please keep me in your prayers and know that you are all in mine.

No reason to feel as if you cannot get your head around this. The Pope was not speaking about salvation, nor was he speaking about Heaven. He was quite simply saying that every human is redeemed by Jesus (fact), and that every human has God’s Law imprinted on their hearts (fact). He was attempting to tell the world that EVERYONE has a role in bringing peace into the world, and that is for every single person to do good, including non-Catholics and atheists.

Simple, easy to understand message if one considers his actual words and context.

 

[Lucky7]

The Holy Father meant everyone has a chance to go to heaven. He did not say everyone will(definitely) go to heaven.

He didn’t even say that, but I see what you are saying.

 

[simple_soul]

No reason to feel as if you cannot get your head around this. The Pope was not speaking about salvation, nor was he speaking about Heaven. He was quite simply saying that every human is redeemed by Jesus (fact), and that every human has God’s Law imprinted on their hearts (fact). He was attempting to tell the world that EVERYONE has a role in bringing peace into the world, and that is for every single person to do good, including non-Catholics and atheists.

Simple, easy to understand message if one considers his actual words and context.

Thank you Irishpatrick but I did not have a question about what Pope Francis’ message was

 

[Jon_S_1]

Oh boy… I can see more clearly now why I am so not the one who can sort this all out. This is going to take a few life times to try and understand and there is so much info to try and read to understand it. I know I am not going to have time in my life to read it all and no I do not trust any of you just telling me this is what the church teaches because I have spent more than half my life around people who always like to take one or two specific things the church says and then twist what the Church is saying into what they want to believe it says with out looking at everything the Church teaches together. Looking at the whole picture and context of everything to figure this out and digest it to explain it adequately is beyond my slope. I’ll leave it in the Church’s hands.

Thank you all for the references and help and please keep me in your prayers and know that you are all in mine.

I know it is out of the kindness of your heart that you want to believe in universalism and salvation of all humanity.

Unfortunately, God has revealed otherwise to the church who speaks clearly on it. We should be gracious he has allowed us a second chance by dying for us.

Also, we are in no position to question God on this, even if every single person was damned. After all it is he who gave us life.

 

[irishpatrick]

Thank you Irishpatrick but I did not have a question about what Pope Francis’ message was

I apologize if I upset you.

I think too many people are making this much more complicated than it really is…that is why I posted my message to you. Some theological points are difficult, yet not in this case, and the Pope’s message (along with the Church’s teachings regarding what the Pope spoke about) is quite straight forward.

 

[irishpatrick]

The Church does not teach the salvation of mankind in the sense that everyone is actually saved. When Christ died, it won universal redemption for all human beings, meaning that the gap between God and humanity that had been created by original sin was bridged and all people are potentially capable of salvation. Redemption happened corporatly which means it applies to all people without exception, and this is what Pope Francis was talking about. We are all children of God, all can do good, all are equally loved by God thanks to our resemption.

Salvation is individual, we could potentially all be saved, but not all of us actually are saved because some of us reject Gods offer of salvation. Our redemption was Gods loving act that made our salvation possible, and it gave the “power” or choice to us to accept or reject salvation. Think of it this way, we are all redeemed right now, we wont know if we individually are saved until death.

The only knowledge we have for sure of who is saved vs who isn’t is that the Saints are all saved for sure. The Church has also formally condemned universal salvation so we know for sure that not everyone is saved. Beyond that we do not know for sure who is and isnt saved.

What Pope Francis was re-iterating was the Churchs doctrine on redemption, he didnt say anything new. What he said is admittedly confusing if you dont know the difference between redemption and salvation.

When the Church speaks of the salvation of mankind it means it as a potentiality. God offers salvaion to all mankind, and wants us all to be saved, but not all of us ascent.

If you read the Pope’s words all the way through, you will notice that he was speaking more about a path to peace, than about redemption, salvation or Heaven.

He was making the obvious point that every human is supposed to do good, and that we can all seek a common point, and that common point is the act of doing good.

 

[simple_soul]

I apologize if I upset you.

I think too many people are making this much more complicated than it really is…that is why I posted my message to you. Some theological points are difficult, yet not in this case, and the Pope’s message (along with the Church’s teachings regarding what the Pope spoke about) is quite straight forward.

No worries you did not upset me. I just thought I should clarify since other keep implying that I have issues with what Pope Francis said.

 

[SweetAppleBee]

To say that Lord redeemed us all, this can be considered true. Salvation is for all who wish to receive it. However, Jesus said that He is the vine, and we are the branches. Apart from Him we can do nothing. God was against us following false gods and still is. It is said that you can’t serve two masters. He did say that we could not be lukewarm. We either have to be hot or cold. So, if I put another religion before God, example buddha, I would be breaking “there should be no other gods before me” commandment. Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law. His will is the same as His Father’s, and my will should reflect that of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, redemption is for all, but I have to be willing to receive it and showing it by reflecting the will of the Father. Therefore, the Father’s will is that I have to acknowledge the He is the only true and real God there was, is, and will ever be. This is where I am at right now, and it brings back a memory of watching Mother Angelica where I remember her saying something like it is hard for us to fall away from God. The only way that we can fall away from God is if we choose to do so. “Hard to fall away” that says a lot about God. I do not know how Catholic this is but I am going to say. I would like to hear what others have to say.

God the Father’s first born was God the Son, the spark sort of say between them is God the Holy Spirit where God the Father and God the Son connect. The Holy Spirit goes forth from God the Father to and through God the Son thus creating the angels, and then the earth and all of creation to provide for a world to be populated by us. It is almost like a mother’s womb. It is a beautiful picture, but I am not quite sure how Catholic that is. What do you think?

 

[simple_soul]

I know it is out of the kindness of your heart that you want to believe in universalism and salvation of all humanity.

Unfortunately, God has revealed otherwise to the church who speaks clearly on it. We should be gracious he has allowed us a second chance by dying for us.

Also, we are in no position to question God on this, even if every single person was damned. After all it is he who gave us life.

Please don’t patronize me and it is not out of the kindness of my heart that I want to believe this. It is because I am starting to think it is true and I am not sure how to go about understanding if it is or is not so I have decided to leave it in God and our Church leaders more capable hands to eventually show me if it is…