The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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Lucky7 said:
Like I said in another thread, he could have easily added a line/a few words to avoid the confusion that has come about from this homily. That addition would not have made it “simplistic” by any means.
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I think this is where hindsight makes us think it could have been done better. But the fact is, it is hard to plan for the unknown. He wouldn’t have predicted how this could have been received. Even if he expounds on it a bit, what if other people picked up on something else?

I say, just say what you want to say and not worry too much about how others will react. True Catholics, other Christians, and those who may be interested in Christianity will ask questions. Perhaps this becomes a great opportunity to have people knock on the door and ask questions. Or maybe not.

I don’t think anyone who believes in universalism would convert to Catholicism anyway even if Pope Francis preaches that. So no loss there.
 
So, the good news is that each one of us is redeemed. The bad news is that anyone who is not member of the Catholic Church goes to hell. Is this not misleading?

JMJ
 
McCall1981 said:
I don’t think it’s “pull his punches” as in water it down to appease the crowd. It’s just know that if you say something that can possibly be interpreted poorly, it will be interpreted poorly. And that without clarity, most Catholics are going to be confused. Look at all the threads just in CAF where Catholics are confused, and this is a self-selecting group of people who are identified as Catholic, so they’re going to be generally more knowledgable about theology than the general population, and even here there is tons of confusion.
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He could have prepared something worthy of a doctorate dissertation and it can still be interpreted poorly. People can believe what they want to believe regardless of what is presented before them. He or any of us can’t worry about this too much. We can’t prepare for all eventualities, someone somewhere will always find something to criticize.
 
ConstantineTG said:
This was a homily, it should be addressed to Catholics.
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And even just “Catholics” is a wide range of people of faith. Keep in mind that a large percentage of American Catholics are poorly catechized. And with all the talk of the “New” Evangelization to reach Catholics first, well…
 
JMJCatholic said:
So, the good news is that each one of us is redeemed. The bad news is that anyone who is not member of the Catholic Church goes to hell. Is this not misleading?

JMJ
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No. Because again redemption and salvation are two different things. Though we need to be redeemed first before we can be saved. They are not the same thing but there is an interdependency. What Pope Francis is saying here is that atheists CAN be saved because they are redeemed. But salvation is another whole question, but the surety here is we know it is possible.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I think this is where hindsight makes us think it could have been done better. But the fact is, it is hard to plan for the unknown. He wouldn’t have predicted how this could have been received. Even if he expounds on it a bit, what if other people picked up on something else?

I say, just say what you want to say and not worry too much about how others will react. True Catholics, other Christians, and those who may be interested in Christianity will ask questions. Perhaps this becomes a great opportunity to have people knock on the door and ask questions. Or maybe not.

I don’t think anyone who believes in universalism would convert to Catholicism anyway even if Pope Francis preaches that. So no loss there.
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Maybe the bolded is what he is thinking will happen. I don’t see why this would draw atheists to the Church, but if he thinks it would, it would at least explain the purpose behind what he said.
 
Lucky7 said:
And even just “Catholics” is a wide range of people of faith. Keep in mind that a large percentage of American Catholics are poorly catechized. And with all the talk of the “New” Evangelization to reach Catholics first, well…
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The more he needs not to be careful and just preach Catholic dogma. He can’t answer all the questions in one homily no matter what he preaches. If one is Catholic and is interested in the faith and is poorly catechized, then one must seek more answers from the right people.

In Orthodoxy we have a mantra, “ask the priest.” For any question regarding faith and life, “ask the priest.” I think Catholics should do the same. The Pope is preaching a homily, not writing a book. There will be items left open for some people, and to different people its different things. Ask the priest.
 
McCall1981 said:
Maybe the bolded is what he is thinking will happen. I don’t see why this would draw atheists to the Church, but if he thinks it would, it would at least explain the purpose behind what he said.
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Well, why did Christ chose fishermen for half of his Apostles? Fishermen cast their nets and catch some fish. They don’t catch all the fish, but they catch the fish. And they move around and find where they can catch the most fish. Pope Francis cast out the net, don’t expect him to catch all the fish. Hope and pray he catches some.
 
ConstantineTG said:
He could have prepared something worthy of a doctorate dissertation and it can still be interpreted poorly. People can believe what they want to believe regardless of what is presented before them. He or any of us can’t worry about this too much. We can’t prepare for all eventualities, someone somewhere will always find something to criticize.
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The problem is that this is a recurring issue in the Church from the parish level all the way up: Lack of clarity. When most American Catholics think that anyone of any faith will be saved, there is lack of clarity. When most Americans don’t see the need to be Catholic, there is lack of clarity. When most homilies on the parish level are generalities that one could hear in any Christian church, there is lack of clarity.

Then the pope comes along and says, “Even atheists are redeemed, not just Catholics”.

:banghead:
 
ConstantineTG said:
The more he needs not to be careful and just preach Catholic dogma. He can’t answer all the questions in one homily no matter what he preaches. If one is Catholic and is interested in the faith and is poorly catechized, then one must seek more answers from the right people.

In Orthodoxy we have a mantra, “ask the priest.” For any question regarding faith and life, “ask the priest.” I think Catholics should do the same. The Pope is preaching a homily, not writing a book. There will be items left open for some people, and to different people its different things. Ask the priest.
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I wish “ask the priest” was the answer.
 
Lucky7 said:
The problem is that this is a recurring issue in the Church from the parish level all the way up: Lack of clarity. When most American Catholics think that anyone of any faith will be saved, there is lack of clarity. When most Americans don’t see the need to be Catholic, there is lack of clarity. When most homilies on the parish level are generalities that one could hear in any Christian church, there is lack of clarity.

Then the pope comes along and says, “Even atheists are redeemed, not just Catholics”.

:banghead:
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But that is the truth. The Orthodox Church says the same thing, Christ died for all, He loves all, and He has redeemed all.

As I said before, anything can have lack of clarity. People do not have the same level of understanding. What we are posting here will be interpreted differently by different people. It is just the way it is. We can’t worry about it. Pope Francis did not say anything wrong, and if people want to make something else out of it, it is their problem.

This reminds me of that condom comment from Pope Benedict.
 
ConstantineTG said:
No. Because again redemption and salvation are two different things. Though we need to be redeemed first before we can be saved. They are not the same thing but there is an interdependency. ** What Pope Francis is saying here is that atheists CAN be saved because they are redeemed. But salvation is another whole question, but the surety here is we know it is possible**.
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Totally agree that this is what he is saying, and its totally right, but a LOT of people don’t understand this. Witness all the threads and articles that say he was talking about salvation :confused:

It’s not that what he said is wrong, and you’re absolutely right that no one can plan for all contingencies and you can’t help it if people misinterprate (willfully or otherwise). But he would have to be VERY nieve to not see this mass confusion coming a mile away.
 
Lucky7 said:
Thanks for posting that Constantine. Too bad most people in the world won’t read it and will continue to think the Pope meant all are saved.
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I think it’s more likely that those who already believe all the post-VII Popes are only to be paid lipservice to will always interpret his statements in the worst (from their perspective) possible light.
 
McCall1981 said:
Totally agree that this is what he is saying, and its totally right, but a LOT of people don’t understand this. Witness all the threads and articles that say he was talking about salvation :confused:

It’s not that what he said is wrong, and you’re absolutely right that no one can plan for all contingencies and you can’t help it if people misinterprate (willfully or otherwise). But he would have to be VERY nieve to not see this mass confusion coming a mile away.
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I wouldn’t say naive. When you know so much it is easy to assume that what you say that makes sense to you will make sense to others. The pope is human after all, like the rest of us. Besides, like I said, he could have delved deeper into this, but some people will see what they want to see and take his comments out of context and make it into what it is not. That happens all the time, not just with the Pope.
 
I do not think that one must be poorly catechized to find lack of clarity in such statements. The pro multis (for the many) argument which has been controversial amongst the “catechized” is a related example. So, Pope Francis is basically stating that salvation is possible to every human being but he reserves (who joins the Catholic Church).

JMJ
 
I would like to read the homily myself. Does someone have a link I could follow?
 
McCall1981 said:
Totally agree that this is what he is saying, and its totally right, but a LOT of people don’t understand this. Witness all the threads and articles that say he was talking about salvation :confused:

It’s not that what he said is wrong, and you’re absolutely right that no one can plan for all contingencies and you can’t help it if people misinterprate (willfully or otherwise). But he would have to be VERY nieve to not see this mass confusion coming a mile away.
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Yes, I think if we were talking about something not so huge, I could agree with Constantine, but not with this. I don’t expect every homily to be perfect, etc and I do give the benefit of the doubt often (just ask my husband…I drive him batty).

But please, please can we at least try not to reinforce the false belief that all are saved?
 
Kevin12 said:
I think it’s more likely that those who already believe all the post-VII Popes are only to be paid lipservice to will always interpret his statements in the worst (from their perspective) possible light.
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Isn’t this the very saddest state of affairs?
 
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