The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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simple_soul said:
This is all a smoke screen. What is really going on here is there seems to be this fear that some way some how all of mankind will be miraculously saved. I want to know why and if it is true. If it is true that would be so awesome that words could never explain and fills my whole being with so much joy. If it is true I want to learn about it so that I can help the Salvation of Mankind happen with every fiber in my being. So if any one knows if there is any Truth to this “fear” please help me to know and understand.
If you do not want to post on a public forum then please just PM me.
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According to Jesus and the Catholic Church not all of mankind is going to be saved. Pope Francis has not said anything to the contrary.

If anyone finds a full text of the homily please post it, though I dont think it will be anything new, we have uninteruppted text at the part we’re talking about here.
 
I think that will settle a lot of our discussions when we get the full text of the Homily. I’m looking forward to reading it.
 
simple_soul said:
This is all a smoke screen. What is really going on here is there seems to be this fear that some way some how all of mankind will be miraculously saved. I want to know why and if it is true. If it is true that would be so awesome that words could never explain and fills my whole being with so much joy. If it is true I want to learn about it so that I can help the Salvation of Mankind happen with every fiber in my being. So if any one knows if there is any Truth to this “fear” please help me to know and understand.
If you do not want to post on a public forum then please just PM me.
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I’m not following this post at all. Who is “afraid” of universal salvation?
 
Lucky7 said:
I’m not following this post at all. Who is “afraid” of universal salvation?
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Lets not discuss universal salvation, since that is most decidedly NOT what Francis talked about in his homily. Discussing it only furthers the mistaken notion that he did talk about it. As the mod says, lets stick to what he did say.
 
JMJCatholic said:
…And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace…But do good: we will meet one another there.”

I am still trying to reconcile the “No Salvation Outside the Church” as strictly interpreted in the past with recent interpretations as the one about by Pope Francis in the light of the teaching that doctrine cannot change, only develop. Would you consider the above a development of:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): …
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All those that have eternal life are members of the Church of Christ which subsists in the Catholic Church.

The statement that “none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal” is in harmony with the statement that “And we all have a duty to do good.” What allows salvation is baptism which may be of water, of blood, or of desire. See Modern Catholic Dictionary:
BAPTISM OF BLOOD. Martyrdom in the case of a person who died for the Christian faith before he or she could receive the sacrament. The effects of martyrdom of blood are the complete remission of all sin and the title to immediate entrance into heaven. The expression entered the Christian vocabulary during the first three centuries when many catechumens awaiting baptism and pagans suddenly converted to the Christian faith were martyred before they could receive formal baptism of water.

BAPTISM OF DESIRE. The equivalent of sacramental baptism of water, which in God’s providence is sufficient to enable a person to obtain the state of grace and to save his or her soul. According to the Church’s teaching, “Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Church, I, 16).
 
simple_soul said:
InLight-

I beleive I am beginning to see why this thread seems to be going around in circles. Is it ok if I use your post here to start a new thead?
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Dear Simple soul, there is another thread on Spirituality forum with similar discussion. Starting another thread probably won’t help.

You are right that this thread seems to go around circles. People often do not discuss the key point instead they throw in whatever they want and make a thread loses focus. It will be good to follow the Moderate’s guidelines. God bless!
 
Lucky7 said:
Actually, he is not speaking of salvation at all. Please go back and read prior posts.
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Actually, hate to correct a Catholic on this, but that’s exactly what he said. Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, posted a further statement to clarify the Pontiff’s remarks::

“Every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/?hpt=hp_c4

Trying to retranslate or rewrite the Pope’s words, especially if it is to suit one’s own message, cheapens what your Holy Father is trying to say.

I was taken aback when I read his statement; it was an unexpected, but welcome change in Catholic thinking. I hope his words become part of Catholic doctrine. I hope this signals a change and a new beginning for the RCC. I am elated that the highest ranking member of the Roman Catholic Church seems to be acknowledging that no matter your church, your denomination - even atheists! - we must all be called to do good for ourselves and for one another and to live whole lives, and in that, we can find salvation.

It’s a truly beautiful message.
 
Lucky7 said:
OK, so serious question:

Is it Catholic teaching that all people are children of God because they are redeemed by Christ? Or is it that we become children of God through baptism?

Because those are two very different things folks.
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Neither. We are all children of God because God is the Father of All.
 
po18guy said:
luke As Mary proclaimed in her magnificat (Luke 1:46-55). Yet interestingly, she spoke of “Abraham and his seed forever” (1:55), which indicates both Isaac as well as Ishmael. For this reason is Mary important to the conversion of the Muslims?
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Mary is the very Key to the conversion of the whole world, including Catholics, and including Muslims.
 
news.va/en/news/pope-at-mass-culture-of-encounter-is-the-foundatio
2013-05-22 Vatican Radio
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(Vatican Radio) “Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace: this is what Pope said at Mass this morning at the Domus Santae Martae, in the presence of employees of the Governorate of Vatican City. Cardinal Bechara Boutros Rai, Patriarch of Antioch of the Maronites, concelebrated at the Mass.
Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”
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“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
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“Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”
This was the final prayer of Pope Francis:
"Today is [the feast of] Santa Rita, Patron Saint of impossible things – but this seems impossible: let us ask of her this grace, this grace that all, all, all people would do good and that we would encounter one another in this work, which is a work of creation, like the creation of the Father. A work of the family, because we are all children of God, all of us, all of us! And God loves us, all of us! May Santa Rita grant us this grace, which seems almost impossible. Amen.”
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McCall1981 said:
People all over the world now think the Pope said atheists are saved.
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But no smart people, people who can read, think that. Why should anyone care what anyone thinks about what someone clearly did not even say?
 
Sirach2 said:
We cannot take his words out of context, since he focused on he daily scripture reading, as is required of any pastor to expound in his homily.

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation."

Do you believe that God works through “actual grace” within all beings, inspiring them to do good? Isn’t this the message of the sheep versus the goats parable, that we do it unto Him? I don’t believe he is promoting a gospel of good works to the exclusion of all else. He is merely explaining the scripture of that day more profoundly. In conclusion, he said:

"Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”
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Then what exactly is the role of faith or even the need for faith? If as the Holy father stated,eloquently stated that even the athiests who do good are on the right path then explain to me the need for faith in anything?

I’m serious. I don’t get it and most of thepeople I know personally or have interaction with on a regular basis don’t get it,both Catholics and others,protestants, Muslims,you name it.

As an aside and just for information only, the Priests who were heavily involved with Liberation Theology back in the day, made similar statements about socialism and even athistic communism not being incompatable with Christianity.

I’m not saying its the same thing, but perilously close and it does sound, at least on the surface that what is being extolled is a works based faith being what is necessary rather than faith.

I hope that I am wrong, but it sure doesn’t seem like it…
 
Thanks for providing the actual homily of what Pope Francis said… I can only see truth in what the Holy Father stated if read in the context of the entire homily…

I can find no fault in what he said… Only fault in those you pick and chose lines that tailor to their own agenda.
 
Casey123 said:
Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, posted a further statement to clarify the Pontiff’s remarks::

“Every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians **can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. **No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”
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It is true that no one is excluded from salvation. God’s will is not for anyone to be lost but for all to live. That is the reason of Christ’s Incarnation. Everyone can be saved. But** is **everyone saved? Isn’t “responding to the Spirit” the key point?

When Catholic teaching says there is no salvation outside the Church, the definition of Church is not limited to the literal Catholic Church herself. The definition of this Church has a broad scope. Surely many people who do good all of their life without knowing God can be saved. That is totally depending on God’s mercy and God’s justice.

For us who are baptized and believe in God, we know our path is a surer way. Even so, does Catholic teaching ever say our salvation is for sure? Or do we believe what St. Paul said to work on our salvation with fear and trembling? If salvation has been granted for all already, why do we need to work on salvation with fear and trembling? And why does Jesus said not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of God?

Isn’t Holy Father Francis’ point clear enough? Carefully read his homily, I find nothing contradicts to what we always believe and understand. 👍
 
Sirach2 said:
Forgive me for coming late the the thread - I have not read all of the posts. The issue has been complicated by a distorted article in Huffington Post. I read the true version this morning and share it now. Hopefully, it will clear up some questions that may have been posted.

Look at the distortion here in blue:
Huffington Post: “The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”… We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Vatican Radio:
The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace.** If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good**, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there."

The meaning of “there” is more clear in his actual homily. We’ve seen a lot of hullabaloo here at CAF over an incomplete reporting of what he really said.
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The “hullabaloo” seems more doctrinal than nitpicky. Some here appear to take issue with the Holy Father’s strikingly relevant and deep understanding that God will judge each of us according to our works, not according to what we say we believe.
 
Mike30 said:
Then what exactly is the role of faith or even the need for faith?
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Of course we need faith… Faith without works is dead!

But can’t we say that when a non-believer does something good, that it is in fact good?

How are we suppose to reach out to people if all we say is they are damned? We need to start somewhere… And our Holy Father said to meet them there (where they are doing good)

After we have somewhere to meet then we can turn the conversation towards God and his salvation…

When Pope Francis talks about “people of our own party” we really need to take a good look at ourselves and reflect if we are truly following Christ in his abundant mercy

At least that is my opinion… Also I do not think he is referring to the militant Atheists like Hitchingson or Dawkins. I think he is referring to those people in our everyday lives who have not found faith yet. I know since this conversation started I have been praying a lot more fervently for those in my own life who have not found God and his Church and for those that have fallen away…

I don’t understand why people want the Pope to come out and Say Christ’s Divine Mercy can not go beyond the walls of the Catholic Church… I hope and pray it does.

On a side note I try to bring as many as I can to the fullness of truth that are found within our Mother’s Arms so their will be less risk to their immortal souls…
 
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