The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

[clem456]

When Catholic teaching says there is no salvation outside the Church, the definition of Church is not limited to the literal Catholic Church herself. The definition of this Church has a broad scope. Surely many people who do good all of their life without knowing God can be saved. That is totally depending on God’s mercy and God’s justice.

Yes and no. Non-Catholics can be saved. But Catholic teaching clearly defines the Church as the necessary instrument of salvation. Christ founded one Church, and that one Church is necessary to carry us to salvation. But it’s not a membership deal like the Elk’s club. It’s like the water we drink to sustain us, not everyone pays for it or helps obtain and purify it, but it gives life to all who drink of it.
Even if one was not physically Catholic in this life, if they are in heaven, the Church carried them there, and they are part of it.

 

[Love4All]

Thanks for this.

I understand what you’re saying. I understand the kind of discomfort that can be good, like if Pope Francis says “we must go out to the poor and serve them”, I might be forced to realize that I don’t really do this much. That could make me uncomfortable, and maybe motivate me to change my behavior and actually get off my backside and serve the poor. Certainly Jesus Himself made people uncomfortable in this good way.

But what if one feels uncomfortable about Church leadership, or (potential) changes to Church doctrine, or doubts about the validity of the Church etc. This kind of discomfort doesn’t motivate me to live a more Christian life, it just pulls me away. So how this kind of discomfort be good, or can it?

How can you let something outside of yourself “pull you away?” You know your responsibility toward God. Live up to it! It is between you and your God, not anyone else.

 

[otjm]

And once again we have someone telling others what they should or should not be doing (or posters who “know” the hearts of others). The fact of the matter is that what the Pope says is “out there”. I do know (and everyone else knows). I could just sit and worry about just “my” salvation (which I do by the way, thanks), but I happen to think what the Pope says (and what other Church leaders say and do) affects others as well as how others view the Church. If you (and others) choose to ignore that, that’s fine. But I’m tired of others sitting in judgment over what I (and others with sincere concerns) find important to focus on.

If any of you believe that your salvation is all there is to worry about, then perhaps that’s all you should worry or opine about.

perhaps you could go back and re-read my post.

I find the confusion that is running around in circles in this thread to be in part due to people reading what someone says the Pope says. Or worse, what someone says someone else says the Pope says. And therein lies the problem; because those who in the public press comment on such things have little or no training, they look for what might be scintillating, “news worthy” (which too often means something with a wiff of scandal, or scandalous thought) or something that feeds their general prejudices. A whole lot of the confusion in this thread is due to paying attention to poor sources.

A second source of the confusion seems to come from a lack of training in what the Church teaches. The Church teaches a lot; and it takes a long time to assimilate enough that one is not left wandering around in the dark. However, getting tangled up in the media is a poor place to obtain catechesis.

A lot of the confusion would be avoided if one remembered some simple facts; I laid those out. I am not trying to insult, but to suggest that we sometimes have a tendency to get agitated over things when some simple facts will act to clarify things greatly - or at least reduce the anxiety.

I am well aware that what the Pope says affects a whole lot of people. Neither you nor I can make the news sources accurate, unbiased, or thorough. And neither you nor I can force them to do so or become so. There is always going to be wrong, false and/or skewed reporting; I quit trying to rectify that decades ago. Instead, I try to get reliable sources for information so I can grow in my faith, rather than spending time trying to tell others that the Pope needs to be more cognizant of how the media skews things, or that he has to break things down smaller, or he has to be more complete, or any of a number of things that have been said on this thread.

 

[Love4All]

Christ died for all in the sense that all could potentially have been saved. But the reprobate reject the conditions for salvation whereas the Elect do not. The Elect are the many who receive the Redemption of Christ “unto the remission of sins” and depart this life in the faith with worketh through charity, that is, believers departing this life in the state of grace.

“Culture of encounter” is not a good thing. Encounter is a hostile meeting. Just consult the dictionary on that. I desire to die in the friendship of God, and greet the Lord. I have no desire to “encounter” Christ.

Well, that is interesting, I didn’t know that about the word, “encounter.”

But now that I do know it, if I may, allow me to attempt to shed some light on both the Holy Father’s comments and on our potential encounters with Our Lord.

The Christian meeting the atheist does encounter him, because the atheist probably thinks the Christian should be an atheist too, and vice versa, the Christian definitely wishes to convert the atheist if he is any kind of a Christian.

The same applies to ourselves in relation to Jesus. It is an encounter because we are in fact adversaries. We like our sins; He hates them. He desires our conversion from sin; we resist Him if we think we can get away with it.

It is true you have no desire to encounter Christ, because you are a sinner and you know that with Him in your life, your days of sinning are numbered!

But I say, Bring it on, Lord! Let us have a battle to the death, and May the best Man win!

 

[McCall1981]

How can you let something outside of yourself “pull you away?” You know your responsibility toward God. Live up to it! It is between you and your God, not anyone else.

I’m not sure if youre asking rhetorically but if youre really asking I’d PM to talk about it, cant really do it in the public forum.

 

[Love4All]

Then what exactly is the role of faith or even the need for faith? If as the Holy father stated,eloquently stated that even the athiests who do good are on the right path then explain to me the need for faith in anything?

I’m serious. I don’t get it and most of thepeople I know personally or have interaction with on a regular basis don’t get it,both Catholics and others,protestants, Muslims,you name it.

As an aside and just for information only, the Priests who were heavily involved with Liberation Theology back in the day, made similar statements about socialism and even athistic communism not being incompatable with Christianity.

I’m not saying its the same thing, but perilously close and it does sound, at least on the surface that what is being extolled is a works based faith being what is necessary rather than faith.

I hope that I am wrong, but it sure doesn’t seem like it…

Salvation by Faith Alone is not Catholic Doctrine, and the error of that has invaded Catholic thought to a point now where it easy to get confused.

Why have Faith? To please God. “Without Faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

What, then, of those who only show their Faith implicitly, in good works? Can they, too, be saved? Of course. Because, “they are judged, each one of them, according to their works.”

Truth is Truth, and God’s Church is Truth. And He also said, “the Truth shall make you free.” So if you know God’s Church, you know the Truth, and you are free. But to whom else shall you go? Knowing the Truth, shall you then leave it for falsehood? Of course not.

You don’t know the Truth because you are clever, or because you were looking out for yourself and wanted to be saved. You know it because God has shown it to you. You believe it because God gave you Faith. It is that simple.

 

[Love4All]

Yes and no. Non-Catholics can be saved. But Catholic teaching clearly defines the Church as the necessary instrument of salvation. Christ founded one Church, and that one Church is necessary to carry us to salvation. But it’s not a membership deal like the Elk’s club. It’s like the water we drink to sustain us, not everyone pays for it or helps obtain and purify it, but it gives life to all who drink of it.
Even if one was not physically Catholic in this life, if they are in heaven, the Church carried them there, and they are part of it.

Yes, that’s right. “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” is very specifically Catholic Doctrine aimed at Catholics. It is to keep you within the Church. It is not to give you fuel for speculation about those who appear to be outside of her.

Literalism and Legalism had better bow down before Love!

 

[brian614]

Salvation by Faith Alone is not Catholic Doctrine, and the error of that has invaded Catholic thought to a point now where it easy to get confused.

Why have Faith? To please God. “Without Faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

What, then, of those who only show their Faith implicitly, in good works? Can they, too, be saved? Of course. Because, “they are judged, each one of them, according to their works.”

Truth is Truth, and God’s Church is Truth. And He also said, “the Truth shall make you free.” So if you know God’s Church, you know the Truth, and you are free. But to whom else shall you go? Knowing the Truth, shall you then leave it for falsehood? Of course not.

You don’t know the Truth because you are clever, or because you were looking out for yourself and wanted to be saved. You know it because God has shown it to you. You believe it because God gave you Faith. It is that simple.

 

[graciew]

Well, that is interesting, I didn’t know that about the word, “encounter.”

I understand,there are tons of words I do not know.
What sounds interesting to me,is the difficulty that arouse to understand “Culture of encounter”.
The word “encounter” appears 92 times in a pdf that has 190 pages written as a Concluding Document at Aparecida in 2007,the V General Conference of the Bishops of Latin America and the Caribbean.

aecrc.org/documents/Aparecida-Concluding%20Document.pdf

 

[graciew]

Well, that is interesting, I didn’t know that about the word, “encounter.”

!

This is curious,and there are tons of words I do not know,so be at peace…
What is curious is that the word “encounter” appears 92 times in a pdf that has about 190 pages,the Concluding Document at Aparecida in 2007,the V General Conference of the Bishops of Latin America and the Caribbean
I found that interesting too.
aecrc.org/documents/Aparecida-Concluding%20Document.pdf.

 

[Mike30]

Salvation by Faith Alone is not Catholic Doctrine, and the error of that has invaded Catholic thought to a point now where it easy to get confused.

Why have Faith? To please God. “Without Faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

What, then, of those who only show their Faith implicitly, in good works? Can they, too, be saved? Of course. Because, “they are judged, each one of them, according to their works.”

Truth is Truth, and God’s Church is Truth. And He also said, “the Truth shall make you free.” So if you know God’s Church, you know the Truth, and you are free. But to whom else shall you go? Knowing the Truth, shall you then leave it for falsehood? Of course not.

You don’t know the Truth because you are clever, or because you were looking out for yourself and wanted to be saved. You know it because God has shown it to you. You believe it because God gave you Faith. It is that simple.

You are right. I guess it is simple. Belief in a God is not necessary as long as you do good things. Does an athiest please God? I would have thought not but now I guess if he does good works he does. You are right simple.

What I don’t understand, is why, given what we now know concerning what is really important, should we continue on a journey of faith? It is obviously irrelevant. Good works is what matters.

Take our athiest friend. He sleeps in on Sunday, goes out has a few brews, then drops by the homeless shelter, feeds a few or maybe gives them some socks, then goes back out with his buds and finishes the day drinking and ridiculing those who have gone to whatever organized religious group that they belong to.

Apparently, because he does good works, he is A OK,

So I repeat, why bother? Why try to please God? The athiest doesn’t and he seems to have as good a chance as anyone else at eternal life and salvation.

Sounds easier to be an athiest. I hate to say that,and honestly never thought I would, but it does.

And that really breaks my heart.

 

[Vico]

32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.
33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.
» Matthew 10:32-33Catena Aurea

 

[McCall1981]

You are right. I guess it is simple. Belief in a God is not necessary as long as you do good things. Does an athiest please God? I would have thought not but now I guess if he does good works he does. You are right simple.

What I don’t understand, is why, given what we now know concerning what is really important, should we continue on a journey of faith? It is obviously irrelevant. Good works is what matters.

Take our athiest friend. He sleeps in on Sunday, goes out has a few brews, then drops by the homeless shelter, feeds a few or maybe gives them some socks, then goes back out with his buds and finishes the day drinking and ridiculing those who have gone to whatever organized religious group that they belong to.

Apparently, because he does good works, he is A OK,

So I repeat, why bother? Why try to please God? The athiest doesn’t and he seems to have as good a chance as anyone else at eternal life and salvation.

Sounds easier to be an athiest. I hate to say that,and honestly never thought I would, but it does.

And that really breaks my heart.

Its been said, but I’ll repeat it, Pope Francis didnt say anything like what youre implying here. All he said is that Christ redeemed all people, even atheists. That means salvation is offered to all, not that all are saved. A person needs faith to accept that salvation and be saved. There is a huge difference between redemption and salvation. There is nothing to be upset about what he actually said, just what people are twisting it into.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You are right. I guess it is simple. Belief in a God is not necessary as long as you do good things. Does an athiest please God? I would have thought not but now I guess if he does good works he does. You are right simple.

What I don’t understand, is why, given what we now know concerning what is really important, should we continue on a journey of faith? It is obviously irrelevant. Good works is what matters.

Take our athiest friend. He sleeps in on Sunday, goes out has a few brews, then drops by the homeless shelter, feeds a few or maybe gives them some socks, then goes back out with his buds and finishes the day drinking and ridiculing those who have gone to whatever organized religious group that they belong to.

Apparently, because he does good works, he is A OK,

So I repeat, why bother? Why try to please God? The athiest doesn’t and he seems to have as good a chance as anyone else at eternal life and salvation.

Sounds easier to be an athiest. I hate to say that,and honestly never thought I would, but it does.

And that really breaks my heart.

This is completely erroneous theology and not Catholic teaching.

Please show me the catechism reference that says "Good works apart from God Merits Salvation. "

What is the greatest commandment? Love God!

“Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved. We see this in Jesus’ teaching: “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters” (Mt 12:30). Also: “*f he [a sinning brother] refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Mt 18:17). Paul warned similarly: “As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned” (Ti 3:10-11).”

You make a good observation that if this doctrine espoused by Love4all is true, then there is no need for the church. That PROVES it is false.*

 

[Jon_S_1]

Salvation by Faith Alone is not Catholic Doctrine, and the error of that has invaded Catholic thought to a point now where it easy to get confused.

Why have Faith? To please God. “Without Faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

What, then, of those who only show their Faith implicitly, in good works? Can they, too, be saved? Of course. Because, “they are judged, each one of them, according to their works.”

Truth is Truth, and God’s Church is Truth. And He also said, “the Truth shall make you free.” So if you know God’s Church, you know the Truth, and you are free. But to whom else shall you go? Knowing the Truth, shall you then leave it for falsehood? Of course not.

You don’t know the Truth because you are clever, or because you were looking out for yourself and wanted to be saved. You know it because God has shown it to you. You believe it because God gave you Faith. .

Salvation by works alone is not Catholic Doctrine either and it really bothers me that you espouse it as so…

 

[Tigg]

Doing good is more important than believing in God. Pope Francis got it right.

This is not what the Pope said!!!

 

[Tigg]

Its been said, but I’ll repeat it, Pope Francis didnt say anything like what youre implying here. All he said is that Christ redeemed all people, even atheists. That means salvation is offered to all, not that all are saved. A person needs faith to accept that salvation and be saved. There is a huge difference between redemption and salvation. There is nothing to be upset about what he actually said, just what people are twisting it into.

I believe Mike was responding to Love4All. Afterall he/she even made this statement to one of my posts!!!

Doing good is more important than believing in God.

:bigyikes: Thank you, but my faith is my greatest treasure. You make it sound as if the Church is irrelevant.

 

[simple_soul]

Salvation by works alone is not Catholic Doctrine either and it really bothers me that you espouse it as so…

Yes.but I beleive that part of the confusion is that some are trying to seperTe works from God but works are ordered by God. Whether on believes it or not, they are ordered by Him so you can not possibly seperate works from God. Can you? He wrote it into the human heart so if we are doing works we are doing what God wants us to do whether we understand fully why or not.

This is the part of Pope Francis’ homily that helped me see this more clearly.
I hope and pray it helps those who are struggling to understand this;

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”

Who is the Pope saying put this camandment to do good in ones hear? God! So if God put this camandment in all of our hearts and we listen to this commandment it is us taking some of our first steps to follow the proptimgs of the Holy Spirit.

I beleive the biggest problem is that some people are trying to seperate works from God and I beleive what Pope Francis is saying is that you can’t. They are still doing God’s will whether they understand it or not and we can meat them there to help nurture this comanent of God and be there for them as thier relationship with God grows to help them see the rest of His camandments. This takes a lot of love and patience and trust in God in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them.
Anyway this is just how I see it I hope it helps some on this thread if they need it.

 

[simple_soul]

I’m not following this post at all. Who is “afraid” of universal salvation?

My first thought is Satan.

 

[simple_soul]

Dear Simple soul, there is another thread on Spirituality forum with similar discussion. Starting another thread probably won’t help.

You are right that this thread seems to go around circles. People often do not discuss the key point instead they throw in whatever they want and make a thread loses focus. It will be good to follow the Moderate’s guidelines. God bless!

Thank you Inlight. I decided to start a different thread anyway. I beleive it was moved to the Apologetics forum.

God Bless you too.