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Tigg
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Well I see you state that “Love” is your religion, so for the clarification of muddle-minded Catholics this needs to be said:
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agnes_therese
Guest
At no time has Pope Francis said that faith is irrelevant.
Here’s a novel thought – let’s listen to what he says, and make an effort to put it into practice in our daily lives. Period. Leave the squabbling and (deliberate?) misinterpretations to non-Catholics.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
"It really boils down to this: that all life is interrelated. We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied together into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly…Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you’ve depended on more than half the world. This is the way our universe is structured, this is its interrelated quality. We aren’t going to have peace on Earth until we recognize the basic fact of the interrelated structure of all reality. " Christmas sermon 1967, Dr. King
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Lucky7
Guest
I’m not concerned with how badly it feels to bang my head. It’s more important that I speak the Truth.
But thanks for your “loving” concern.
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Sirach2
Guest
Did he say they are on the right path? The context of his comment related to the daily reading where the apostles wanted Jesus to forbid non-apostles to perform the works they were privileged to do. Jesus admonished them, saying that he who is not against us is for us, and approved of the good they were doing. Isn’t this basically what Pope Francis was saying?
James 2:24, See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This could be taken out of context in the same way as folks are taking the Pope’s words out of context, as if faith did not matter.
We know that Our Lord would prefer that all embrace the salvation He obtained for us, but each must come to it in their own way. Grace is mysterious in how it brings a person to faith. Since we do not know the heart of anyone who does good, though they do not yet have faith, it is foolish to speculate on their eternal status. We do our best and act in accord with Jesus’s directive to go into all the world bringing them to faith.
Be assured, according to Romans 2:14-16, that gentiles (atheists, included) who have not the law, but live it, show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Yet that is conditioned upon many factors besides just being good guys, all of which are hidden from our knowledge. Therefore, we do not judge, but understand that it is possible only in ways known to God.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Here’s another similar in thinking from the Orthodox. Pretty much a universal message for those who in a word, seek true peace.
blessedisthekingdom.com/2010/09/18/bishop-kallistos-ware-on-original-sin/
“The answer is that human beings, made in the image of the Trinitarian God, are interdependent and co-inherent. No man is an island. We are “members of one another,” and so any action, performed by any member of the human race, inevitably affects all the other members. Even though we are not, in the strict sense, guilty of the sins of others, yet we are somehow always involved.” Bishop Ware.
Pope Francis is a blessing.
blessedisthekingdom.com/2010/09/18/bishop-kallistos-ware-on-original-sin/
“The answer is that human beings, made in the image of the Trinitarian God, are interdependent and co-inherent. No man is an island. We are “members of one another,” and so any action, performed by any member of the human race, inevitably affects all the other members. Even though we are not, in the strict sense, guilty of the sins of others, yet we are somehow always involved.” Bishop Ware.
Pope Francis is a blessing.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
So your “truth” is different than that of our Holy Father?
There is a problem here, but it’s not with the Pope.
This was a homily, spoken in the context of a daily Mass, to people who are Catholic. As has been pointed, and to paraphrase one of my favorite movies~
“I do no think it means what you think it means…”
When all is said and done, worrying about this is way above my pay-grade.
My only job is to live out the Gospel message in my thoughts, words & deeds,
and God will take care of everthing else. I can pray for understanding & acceptance of the faith by all, but in the end, the only salvation that is important will be my own.
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Lucky7
Guest
Wow. Now that’s a mouthful! However, Fr. did still say “so-called” original sin.
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Lucky7
Guest
I’m sorry but where did I say that? It is Love4All who is espousing things that are against the Catholic Faith. You know, the idea that “Love” is all you need.So your “truth” is different than that of our Holy Father?
Please direct your whistling elsewhere.
LOL…and now I have the Beatles song in my head.
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Tigg
Guest
I think this is an unfair assumption. If I’m not mistaken this poster is a recent convert to the faith and her posts have been in the spirit of a greater understanding of that faith by questioning.
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clem456
Guest
It does not seem to be clear that Fr Rosica is the official interpreter of the Pope’s homilies. Can anyone clarify that?
I wish Fr Rosica were here to explain exactly what he meant so as to avoid all confusion.
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clem456
Guest
Banging one’s head is a choice. We all do it, but it doesn not accomplish much.
Is it true that trusting comes before knowing?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Pope Francis did not rewrite church teaching in his homily. Just look at the Catechism and it is clear. Surely you would agree that if the church was going to announce that all you need is good works apart from God for salvation, it would have been said ex cathedra and written out in a clear papal bull.
You will never see such a document, as it is contrary to the Bible, the deposit of faith, and doctrines and dogma of the church (which cannot change)
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clem456
Guest
Exactly. But seen through mistrusting eyes, nothing can make sense.
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russet1
Guest
I am getting tired of everyone running around trying to paraphrase or explain away what the Pope says. The Pope is a big boy, the leader of our Church and certainly more trained in theology than anyone on this forum. He knows what he said, he said it on purpose. We may not understand or like it, heck we are free to disagree, but everyone explaining what he meant is just silly, and it makes the Pope into someone he is not.
In fact all these issues are because the press does exactly that, they put words in his mouth, then we try to explain away what he said by splitting hairs.
Some things Pope Francis does and says brings me joy,and agrees with my interpretation of the faith, some things make me wince and uncomfortable. But it is not up to me to “spin” the things I do not understand. (like the subject of this thread) It is up to me to be obedient to the Church and her Leader.
In fact all these issues are because the press does exactly that, they put words in his mouth, then we try to explain away what he said by splitting hairs.
Some things Pope Francis does and says brings me joy,and agrees with my interpretation of the faith, some things make me wince and uncomfortable. But it is not up to me to “spin” the things I do not understand. (like the subject of this thread) It is up to me to be obedient to the Church and her Leader.
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Lucky7
Guest
Regardless of whether he is the official interpreter of the Pope’s homilies, the comment that original sin is “so-called” makes me uncomfortable at best.
But you’re right, it probably just needs to be clarified…clarification of the clarification …but I won’t get on that again as I’m apparently upsetting folks with my incessant call for clarity.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Here’s an idea, how about everyone go ask their bishop if they can leave the church and be atheist and be saved…as long as they are good of course…
:banghead:
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clem456
Guest
There is no upset. At least on my part. Maybe others are upset I dunno.
Speaking for myself, the call for clarity implies my ability and competence to understand clearly. If I don’t have these, (and I am limited in this area), then a continued call for clarity becomes obstinant. I am then imposing my limited understanding on others and demanding that they do the work that is mine to do, which is trusting and praying that I might have the grace to hear the Church clearly. Clarity, or certainty, will never come in this life. If we continually want others to be clear and understood on our terms, we end up banging our heads against the wall.
Is it true that trusting comes before knowing in matters of faith?
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Lucky7
Guest
It does seem as if your post(s) to me is questioning whether I put any onus on myself first as you do. Others have been implying the same towards me which I find quite insulting. I have given the benefit of the doubt more times than you can know and I have questioned myself more times than you can know…but …I still come up with questions.
So I don’t know if I can answer (in general) the question you posed to me twice now. I do know that I have trusted, but when I see things that don’t match up it affects that trust going forward. Does that make sense?
And honestly. I think if we continue this conversation it won’t go over well as it is not about the OP. Maybe you should start a new thread in another forum.
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simple_soul
Guest
Lucky, I’ve been where it sounds like you are.
Its like I have to keep analyzing and anylizing and anilyzing trying to make sense of things and all I do is get all knoted up and then nothing makes sense any more. Much like this thread. I have found that the only way I can finally start making sense of things is when I let it go and take it to Jesus and His Mother Mary in Silent Prayer.
Maria Christie posted this prayer by Pope Francis’ in the Spirituality forum.
Its like I have to keep analyzing and anylizing and anilyzing trying to make sense of things and all I do is get all knoted up and then nothing makes sense any more. Much like this thread. I have found that the only way I can finally start making sense of things is when I let it go and take it to Jesus and His Mother Mary in Silent Prayer.
Maria Christie posted this prayer by Pope Francis’ in the Spirituality forum.
My prayers are with you and I do hope and pray that the healing and understanding and peace that only Jesus can give will be yours and other who are have the same dificulties you are experiencing. Please keep me in yours
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