The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

[Love4All]

*The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

At the same time, Rosica writes, “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”*

Is the above a CLARIFICATION??

"No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin."

JMJ

Sorry you got suspended man, but, I think I can see why, since in some of your posts you are openly critical of Magisterial teaching.

That said, though, I do believe Father Rosica was out of line referring to the Doctrine of Original Sin as “so-called.” That seems contemptuous. It reeks of Father Rosica openly criticizing Magisterial teaching!

For the record, Original Sin is called Original Sin because Saint Augustine is a Doctor of the Church, and that is what he called it, and it is accurate, as it was the first sin committed by any human being, and the root of the sinfulness of the whole human race.

And that said, it is yet true that no person is excluded from salvation because of it; rather, those who are excluded from salvation are so because of their own personal sins. The Mormons actually got that one right.

 

[Vico]

Regardless of whether he is the official interpreter of the Pope’s homilies, the comment that original sin is “so-called” makes me uncomfortable at best.

But you’re right, it probably just needs to be clarified…clarification of the clarification …but I won’t get on that again as I’m apparently upsetting folks with my incessant call for clarity.

Compare Meyendorf quote with “so called original sin” to the Catechism of the Catholic Church No. 404, including: “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

 

[simple_soul]

Also a devotion that Pope Francis introduced us to is to Our Lady the untier of Knots. I have found that remembering at times like this and asking for help , helps me a lot.

 

[Love4All]

Yes.but I beleive that part of the confusion is that some are trying to seperTe works from God but works are ordered by God. Whether on believes it or not, they are ordered by Him so you can not possibly seperate works from God. Can you? He wrote it into the human heart so if we are doing works we are doing what God wants us to do whether we understand fully why or not.

This is the part of Pope Francis’ homily that helped me see this more clearly.
I hope and pray it helps those who are struggling to understand this;

Who is the Pope saying put this camandment to do good in ones hear? God! So if God put this camandment in all of our hearts and we listen to this commandment it is us taking some of our first steps to follow the proptimgs of the Holy Spirit.

I beleive the biggest problem is that some people are trying to seperate works from God and I beleive what Pope Francis is saying is that you can’t. They are still doing God’s will whether they understand it or not and we can meat them there to help nurture this comanent of God and be there for them as thier relationship with God grows to help them see the rest of His camandments. This takes a lot of love and patience and trust in God in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them.
Anyway this is just how I see it I hope it helps some on this thread if they need it.

Spot on!

 

[Love4All]

Well I see you state that “Love” is your religion, so for the clarification of muddle-minded Catholics this needs to be said:

Quote:
The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms.
~Catholic Answers Apologist ~

Thank you for the clarification. To further clarify “my” religion,

Catholicism is Love.

 

[Love4All]

"It really boils down to this: that all life is interrelated. We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied together into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly…Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you’ve depended on more than half the world. This is the way our universe is structured, this is its interrelated quality. We aren’t going to have peace on Earth until we recognize the basic fact of the interrelated structure of all reality. " Christmas sermon 1967, Dr. King

That is very, very profound. To me it echos the teaching of the Buddha.

There is only one universe, and you’re not all it, but you are part of it. Let go your ego!

 

[Love4All]

I’m not concerned with how badly it feels to bang my head. It’s more important that I speak the Truth.

But thanks for your “loving” concern.

Aw, “thanks” for your “scare quotes” around “loving.”

But I can assure you, that is in fact what my concern for your poor head is!

I, too, love the Truth above all else. Love IS Truth.

Carry on, brother! You are on a sure and certain path!

 

[Love4All]

I’m sorry but where did I say that? It is Love4All who is espousing things that are against the Catholic Faith. You know, the idea that “Love” is all you need.

Please direct your whistling elsewhere.

LOL…and now I have the Beatles song in my head.

Oh NOW, you’ve laid down the gauntlet!

Please do keep in mind that Love is my religion, and therefore please understand that these words of mine to you are words of love:

Bring it on!

I challenge you to expose my 'heresy" for what it is. If you are able successfully to do so, I will humbly thank you, and I will recant.

But I warn you most solemnly: you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.

You are a mere human head, whereas I am a brick wall!

If you like, let us begin with the Gospel According to “Saint” John Lennon:

“ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.”

Note well, that the quotes around “Saint” are in fact “scare quotes.” I have neither the power nor the authority to pronounce Mister Lennon a Catholic Saint, and I do not believe he ever will be.

Nevertheless, he is a Magus, and a Knight in the Order C.’. D.’.

And his Teaching, that “all you need is Love,” is the Gospel.

However, in obedience to the Moderators of this forum, who have twice warned us to stick to topic especially in this thread, let us begin a new thread for our friendly battle. Let me know, first of all, if you’re even up for it. But seeing how you don’t mind banging your head against a wall, it seems you might be. I hope you are, I really am up for the challenge, and it is all for the Cause of Truth. Either or both of us may learn something!

I will await your reply. PM me if you’d rather. And thanks

 

[Love4All]

Exactly. But seen through mistrusting eyes, nothing can make sense.

To quote Sir Lennon once again,

“Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.”

 

[Love4All]

Here’s an idea, how about everyone go ask their bishop if they can leave the church and be atheist and be saved…as long as they are good of course…

:banghead:

No need to go to a bishop for that. Allow me to infallibly inform you: you can’t. End of discussion.

 

[Love4All]

There is no upset. At least on my part. Maybe others are upset I dunno.

Speaking for myself, the call for clarity implies my ability and competence to understand clearly. If I don’t have these, (and I am limited in this area), then a continued call for clarity becomes obstinant. I am then imposing my limited understanding on others and demanding that they do the work that is mine to do, which is trusting and praying that I might have the grace to hear the Church clearly. Clarity, or certainty, will never come in this life. If we continually want others to be clear and understood on our terms, we end up banging our heads against the wall.

Is it true that trusting comes before knowing in matters of faith?

Yes, that is true, but I wonder about your other statement. Do you hold that God is unknowable?

 

[clem456]

And honestly. I think if we continue this conversation it won’t go over well as it is not about the OP. Maybe you should start a new thread in another forum.

I will disagree. I think this discussion about trust is the heart of the matter in this thread.

If I will first trust, rather than doubt and search for problems, then I can begin to know Christ more fully and the teaching of the Church more fully. Trust opens me up to what the Church is saying, or scripture is saying, or the Pope himself. Trust allows me to drop my own personal filter and listen with the understanding of the Church, give my assent, and if I need to understand more fully, pray and reflect.

If there is no trust, there can’t be understanding in matters of faith.

 

[Love4All]

I will disagree. I think this discussion about trust is the heart of the matter in this thread.

If I will first trust, rather than doubt and search for problems, then I can begin to know Christ more fully and the teaching of the Church more fully. Trust opens me up to what the Church is saying, or scripture is saying, or the Pope himself. Trust allows me to drop my own personal filter and listen with the understanding of the Church, give my assent, and if I need to understand more fully, pray and reflect.

If there is no trust, there can’t be understanding in matters of faith.

That’s right. Allow me to expand a little more.

Saint Faustina is the Apostle of Mercy. She brought us the image of Jesus with the Rays of Light issuing from His Heart, representing Blood and Water, and the inscription, “Jesus, I trust in You!”

The Gospel is the Message of Mercy. Pope John Paul II worked tirelessly on the Cause of Saint Faustina, and now she is known to us as she is, one of God’s Saints.

Pope Francis is a disciple of Blessed John Paul the Great. He learned from him, devotion to the Rosary. He is continuing to guide the Church in the direction John Paul II charted.

Saint Augustine, likewise, wrote that we cannot approach God demanding to understand before we will believe, but rather, we must believe, and then seek to understand.

So Faith comes before Understanding. This is similar to that Trust comes before Knowledge.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Oh NOW, you’ve laid down the gauntlet!

Please do keep in mind that Love is my religion, and therefore please understand that these words of mine to you are words of love:

Bring it on!

I challenge you to expose my 'heresy" for what it is. If you are able successfully to do so, I will humbly thank you, and I will recant.

But I warn you most solemnly: you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.

You are a mere human head, whereas I am a brick wall!

If you like, let us begin with the Gospel According to “Saint” John Lennon:

“ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.”

Note well, that the quotes around “Saint” are in fact “scare quotes.” I have neither the power nor the authority to pronounce Mister Lennon a Catholic Saint, and I do not believe he ever will be.

Nevertheless, he is a Magus, and a Knight in the Order C.’. D.’.

And his Teaching, that “all you need is Love,” is the Gospel.

However, in obedience to the Moderators of this forum, who have twice warned us to stick to topic especially in this thread, let us begin a new thread for our friendly battle. Let me know, first of all, if you’re even up for it. But seeing how you don’t mind banging your head against a wall, it seems you might be. I hope you are, I really am up for the challenge, and it is all for the Cause of Truth. Either or both of us may learn something!

I will await your reply. PM me if you’d rather. And thanks

I know your challenge is To Lucky7 but I will gladly take you on in a new thread.

 

[Love4All]

Did he say they are on the right path? The context of his comment related to the daily reading where the apostles wanted Jesus to forbid non-apostles to perform the works they were privileged to do. Jesus admonished them, saying that he who is not against us is for us, and approved of the good they were doing. Isn’t this basically what Pope Francis was saying?

James 2:24, See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This could be taken out of context in the same way as folks are taking the Pope’s words out of context, as if faith did not matter.

We know that Our Lord would prefer that all embrace the salvation He obtained for us, but each must come to it in their own way. Grace is mysterious in how it brings a person to faith. Since we do not know the heart of anyone who does good, though they do not yet have faith, it is foolish to speculate on their eternal status. We do our best and act in accord with Jesus’s directive to go into all the world bringing them to faith.

Be assured, according to Romans 2:14-16, that gentiles (atheists, included) who have not the law, but live it, show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Yet that is conditioned upon many factors besides just being good guys, all of which are hidden from our knowledge. Therefore, we do not judge, but understand that it is possible only in ways known to God.

To simplify and to answer your lead question,

“Did he say they are on the right path?”

Yes. Yes he did. He said that if they are on the path of Charity, they are on the right path, because the whole path is Charity, and there can be no other. He said that we would meet on the Path of Charity, and take it from there.

To be clear: did he say that atheism is the right path? No.

Did he say that Charity is the right path? Yes.

There is no God apart from Charity.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Oh NOW, you’ve laid down the gauntlet!

Please do keep in mind that Love is my religion, and therefore please understand that these words of mine to you are words of love:

Bring it on!

I challenge you to expose my 'heresy" for what it is. If you are able successfully to do so, I will humbly thank you, and I will recant.

But I warn you most solemnly: you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.

You are a mere human head, whereas I am a brick wall!

If you like, let us begin with the Gospel According to “Saint” John Lennon:

“ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.”

Note well, that the quotes around “Saint” are in fact “scare quotes.” I have neither the power nor the authority to pronounce Mister Lennon a Catholic Saint, and I do not believe he ever will be.

Nevertheless, he is a Magus, and a Knight in the Order C.’. D.’.

And his Teaching, that “all you need is Love,” is the Gospel.

However, in obedience to the Moderators of this forum, who have twice warned us to stick to topic especially in this thread, let us begin a new thread for our friendly battle. Let me know, first of all, if you’re even up for it. But seeing how you don’t mind banging your head against a wall, it seems you might be. I hope you are, I really am up for the challenge, and it is all for the Cause of Truth. Either or both of us may learn something!

I will await your reply. PM me if you’d rather. And thanks

And to point out one way you have damaged the faith and the church I will share Catholic Mike30’s comment from earlier in response to your “all you need is love” teaching.

Originally Posted by Mike30
You are right. I guess it is simple. Belief in a God is not necessary as long as you do good things. Does an athiest please God? I would have thought not but now I guess if he does good works he does. You are right simple.

What I don’t understand, is why, given what we now know concerning what is really important, should we continue on a journey of faith? It is obviously irrelevant. Good works is what matters.

Take our athiest friend. He sleeps in on Sunday, goes out has a few brews, then drops by the homeless shelter, feeds a few or maybe gives them some socks, then goes back out with his buds and finishes the day drinking and ridiculing those who have gone to whatever organized religious group that they belong to.

Apparently, because he does good works, he is A OK,

So I repeat, why bother? Why try to please God? The athiest doesn’t and he seems to have as good a chance as anyone else at eternal life and salvation.

Sounds easier to be an athiest. I hate to say that,and honestly never thought I would, but it does.

And that really breaks my heart.

 

[Love4All]

You are right. I guess it is simple. Belief in a God is not necessary as long as you do good things. Does an athiest please God? I would have thought not but now I guess if he does good works he does. You are right simple.

What I don’t understand, is why, given what we now know concerning what is really important, should we continue on a journey of faith? It is obviously irrelevant. Good works is what matters.

Take our athiest friend. He sleeps in on Sunday, goes out has a few brews, then drops by the homeless shelter, feeds a few or maybe gives them some socks, then goes back out with his buds and finishes the day drinking and ridiculing those who have gone to whatever organized religious group that they belong to.

Apparently, because he does good works, he is A OK,

So I repeat, why bother? Why try to please God? The athiest doesn’t and he seems to have as good a chance as anyone else at eternal life and salvation.

Sounds easier to be an athiest. I hate to say that,and honestly never thought I would, but it does.

And that really breaks my heart.

Of course it is “easier” to be an atheist, in the sense that it is less effort. Hey, maybe that’s why they’re atheists in the first place! Ya think. . .?

But do you really want the easy way, or do you want the Truth?

For my money, Truth is worth any amount of effort to gain it. And Love is worth any sacrifice.

So, do I acknowledge, with the Pope, that atheists can love? Of course. I myself have atheist friends who love me, and whom I love in return. My religion and their lack of it doesn’t present an obstacle to that.

What then? Shall Pope Francis and I renounce Catholicism, because “All you need is Love?” What is Catholicism, if not Love? If Catholicism is Love, then how can I renounce Catholicism, if I want Love?

Catholicism is Love, so, I will remain Catholic. My atheist friends are in error. I do not hate them because they are in error, I love them because we are friends. Catholicism helps me to grow in Love, and isn’t that what it’s all about, after all?

 

[Love4All]

And to point out one way you have damaged the faith and the church I will share Catholic Mike30’s comment from earlier in response to your “all you need is love” teaching.

I’ll start a new thread, or you go ahead and start one and I’ll join. I’m answering other posts at the moment. Please respect the Mods in this thread and stick to the subject topic.

PM me if you start our thread before I do. Thanks!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ll start a new thread, or you go ahead and start one and I’ll join. I’m answering other posts at the moment. Please respect the Mods in this thread and stick to the subject topic.

PM me if you start our thread before I do. Thanks!

I am heading out today so I can’t participate and start the thread until tonight. If you have a chance, let me know what you set up, otherwise I will work on it tonight.

Thanks, looking forward to it!

 

[McCall1981]

Oh NOW, you’ve laid down the gauntlet!

Please do keep in mind that Love is my religion, and therefore please understand that these words of mine to you are words of love:

Bring it on!

I challenge you to expose my 'heresy" for what it is. If you are able successfully to do so, I will humbly thank you, and I will recant.

But I warn you most solemnly: you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.

You are a mere human head, whereas I am a brick wall!

If you like, let us begin with the Gospel According to “Saint” John Lennon:

“ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.”

Note well, that the quotes around “Saint” are in fact “scare quotes.” I have neither the power nor the authority to pronounce Mister Lennon a Catholic Saint, and I do not believe he ever will be.

Nevertheless, he is a Magus, and a Knight in the Order C.’. D.’.

And his Teaching, that “all you need is Love,” is the Gospel.

However, in obedience to the Moderators of this forum, who have twice warned us to stick to topic especially in this thread, let us begin a new thread for our friendly battle. Let me know, first of all, if you’re even up for it. But seeing how you don’t mind banging your head against a wall, it seems you might be. I hope you are, I really am up for the challenge, and it is all for the Cause of Truth. Either or both of us may learn something!

I will await your reply. PM me if you’d rather. And thanks

I’m sorry, I think you have good intentions in here, but having now caught up on reading the rest of this thread I have to say that many of the things youre saying in here are not consistent with Catholic teaching.

That being said, this thread has gone a little crazy, and I think I’m going to bow out now. Hope you all enjoy the rest of the discussion