The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

[Jon_S_1]

Not following you there. Can you put that in the context of his whole talk? The quotes in my post were not intended to convey the substance of the whole talk.

I can respond more later but for now check this article out.

Christ redeemed humanity by opening the opportunity for salvation.

We must accept it.

The Pope in a spirit of peace and ecumenicalism urges us to meet in our commonality…our good deeds.

digitaljournal.com/article/350964

 

[Jon_S_1]

“They (the Apostles) complain [saying]… If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” [But Jesus corrected them, saying] “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” [According to Francis, the Apostles were] “a little intolerant” [and thought that only those of their group could be good, believing that] “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” [The pope said:] “This was wrong… Jesus broadens the horizon… The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”
[Pope Francis continued:] "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists?’ Everyone!.. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
In a quick move to disabuse the minds of the ungodly majority who may have heaved a sigh of relief after learning that the pope has said the closed doors of heaven have at last been flung open to non-Catholics and atheists (!), Rosica implied that the pope did not mean to say that atheists could go to heaven if they do good but do not become Catholics. According to CNN, in an “explanatory note on the meaning of salvation” issued on Thursday, Rosica made it clear that people cannot be saved if they are aware of the Catholic Church but “refuse to enter her or remain in her.” That is, atheists are going to hell if they do not become Catholics.

Read more: m.digitaljournal.com/article/350964#ixzz2Ugr3neHK

 

[clem456]

I can respond more later but for now check this article out.

Christ redeemed humanity by opening the opportunity for salvation.

We must accept it.

The Pope in a spirit of peace and ecumenicalism urges us to meet in our commonality…our good deeds.

digitaljournal.com/article/350964

Now secular journalists are not only putting words in the Pope’s mouth, but also Fr Rosica’s.
It never ends. Secular journalists interpreting theological matters is like me going to a physics lecture and telling everyone what was said. No clue.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Now secular journalists are not only putting words in the Pope’s mouth, but also Fr Rosica’s.
It never ends. Secular journalists interpreting theological matters is like me going to a physics lecture and telling everyone what was said. No clue.

Here us the full content of Fr Rosica’s Explanatory Note. Fr Rosica, is the official English Briefer for the Vatican Press Office.

We have a Magesterium for a reason. Please don’t fall into the error of private interpretation like our Protestant Friends.

zenit.org/en/articles/explanatory-note-on-the-meaning-of-salvation-in-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22

“Catholics do not adopt the attitude of religious relativism which regards all religions as on the whole equally justifiable, and the confusion and disorder among them as relatively unimportant. God truly and effectively wills all people to be saved. Catholics believe that it is only in Jesus Christ that this salvation is conferred, and through Christianity and the one Church that it must be mediated to all people.”

 

[clem456]

Here us the full content of Fr Rosica’s Explanatory Note. Fr Rosica, is the official English Briefer for the Vatican Press Office.

**We have a Magesterium for a reason. Please don’t fall into the error of private interpretation like our Protestant Friends. **
zenit.org/en/articles/explanatory-note-on-the-meaning-of-salvation-in-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22

“Catholics do not adopt the attitude of religious relativism which regards all religions as on the whole equally justifiable, and the confusion and disorder among them as relatively unimportant. God truly and effectively wills all people to be saved. Catholics believe that it is only in Jesus Christ that this salvation is conferred, and through Christianity and the one Church that it must be mediated to all people.”

Are you addressing this to me?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Are you addressing this to me?

Yes!

 

[clem456]

Specifics please? .
I think that’s appropriate given the allegation you just slung at me.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Specifics please? .
I think that’s appropriate given the allegation you just slung at me.

I am not alleging anything, please don’t take it that way. I am urging caution in how we approach this issue.

I just think it is important to not personally interpret the Popes words if that seeming interpretation contradicts the Magesterium then we cannot accept it.

Since there is much debate on this issue, we must turn to the Magesterium to clarify. So we hear the Pope’s words (not spoken ex cathedra), and we turn to the Catechism to clarify. Further, due to the amount of confusion on this issue in the media it makes sense to turn to the official Vatican Press Release regarding this.

 

[clem456]

I am not alleging anything, please don’t take it that way. I am urging caution in how we approach this issue.

I just think it is important to not personally interpret the Popes words if that seeming interpretation contradicts the Magesterium then we cannot accept it.

Since there is much debate on this issue, we must turn to the Magesterium to clarify. So we hear the Pope’s words (not spoken ex cathedra), and we turn to the Catechism to clarify. Further, due to the amount of confusion on this issue in the media it makes sense to turn to the official Vatican Press Release regarding this.

Right.
Specifically where did I say or do something that went against the magisterium in a “protestant” way?
You did say you were addressing me with a smiley, right?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Right.
Specifically where did I say or do something that went against the magisterium in a “protestant” way?
You did say you were addressing me with a smiley, right?

Right, there was not a specific example, that is why I said

Please do not fall into the error…

I took it from your earlier posts that you were holding a more Universalist approach or Relativism approach.

If I was wrong and read into that too much forgive me, but there have been many Catholics on this thread who strongly hold that position and justify it with the Pope’s homily while ignoring the Magesterial teachings which Fr Rosica sums up very well in his explanatory note.

 

[clem456]

Right, there was not a specific example, that is why I said

Please do not fall into the error…

I took it from your earlier posts that you were holding a more Universalist approach or Relativism approach.

If I was wrong and read into that too much forgive me, but there have been many Catholics on this thread who strongly hold that position and justify it with the Pope’s homily while ignoring the Magesterial teachings which Fr Rosica sums up very well in his explanatory note.

Nothing I posted remotely suggest universalism or relativism.


Here’s what I initially posted this am, if this is what you are referring to:

After thinking about this for a week, it seems to me the problem is not really with confusion, it is with disbelief.
We have a hard time giving our assent to the fact that Christ redeems all people regardless of merit. He has redeemed (purchased us back) from sin, all of us.
This is such a radical and counter-cultural idea that we have a hard time wrapping our minds around it. How can Christ give such an amazing offer to people who -in our minds- don’t deserve it? Doesn’t seem fair or just to us. This is not the way we naturally think. And it is not the way we treat each other most of the time. We tend to be selfish and suspicious. We hold back our gifts until we are sure they will not be abused. Christ is not like that. He gives without counting the cost. Why do we envy that?

The Pope is pictured as shooting from the hip in this talk, even by many Catholic commentators. But if you read the talk again, he knew exactly what he was saying, and the radical nature of what he was saying. Note he anticipates all these objections with the following rhetorical statements:

Quote:
But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’

Quote:
Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’

This is not some sloppy shoot from the hip talk. It cuts like a laser, it is on us to accept it for what it is. Francis demonstrates that he knew exactly what he was saying, and anticipates all these objections on the spot, preemptively. And we still somehow cannot bear to accept what he says at face value.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Nothing I posted remotely suggest universalism or relativism.

Good! My bad! I just read through your comments and your right. I have a few conversations going across a few threads and I definitely see where I misread your position. My apologies! Hopefully my posts will help some people who are watching from the sidelines.

 

[Kevin12]

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catholic-church-confirms-atheists-still-go-to-hell-after-pope-francis-suggests-they-might-go-to-heaven-8634479.html

**Catholic Church confirms atheists still go to hell, after Pope Francis suggests they might go to heaven **

Oh well, panic over. Joke.

I think that was just reaffirming that people like Richard Dawkins are not going to heaven no matter how much good they do.

As I have seen before in this thread, there certainly are many atheists whose ignorance is as invincible as it can be because the governments of their states make it so. This does not excuse us from, as much as we can, trying to reach these people, because their ignorant atheism is likely to lead most of them into sin.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Redemption and salvation are two different things. Read this blog from an Orthodox priest. If an Orthodox priest is defending the Pope of Rome, the Pope must have said something really good

orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

CTG I agree with 99% of that article. However one paragraph I am not so sure:

"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption…

Did not the righteous just in the Bosom of Abraham do good when alive? Yes?
Were they redeemed…? Some say no, and resolve this contradiction by talking about “retro-active redemption” where a present day effect is explained by the future anticipated redemptive fruits of Christ. Personally I find that sort of “theology” just a little too other-worldly and stretched to be totally credible.

Any other solutions?**

 

[DonMack]

Please be kind in responding… IF…, I repeat, IF Pope Francis actually meant all people of good will are saved, wouldn’t that be a good thing? My brother is a very good and moral person. I would love to think that he would be in heaven.

 

[davidabott33]

Salvation vs. Redemption

Man has fallen to sin because of Adam and Eve. Due to the aftereffects of the Fall, man was beyond redemption. Our soul was incapable of being saved. Christ, by becoming man, who lived and died like all men, has redeemed us because He shared in our humanity so that we may share in his divinity. Now we are capable of receiving His grace and living with Him in heaven for all of eternity.

So redemption, as the blog post noted, is something that Christ did for all. When He died on the cross, He died for all. He died for Mary as much as he died for Hitler. But this was the redemption of man, as a whole. He redeemed our humanity, we became those who cannot be saved, to those who can be saved.

Now being saved is another matter. And that is salvation. Because we are redeemed, we can now be saved. But that now depends on us. Do we accept God’s love and grace? Do we live according to Christ’s commandments? Do we put our whole being into God’s hands?

Being redeemed doesn’t get you into heaven, being saved does. But you cannot be saved if you are not redeemed. So that is the first step and Christ did that for all. Now is the second step and it requires our cooperation.

So you are basically saying that the pope said that all have the ability to be saved? Really? So all that was about was to say that an atheist has a chance to be saved? Who is under the misapprehension that people can be saved?

 

[Jon_S_1]

So you are basically saying that the pope said that all have the ability to be saved? Really? So all that was about was to say that an atheist has a chance to be saved? Who is under the misapprehension that people can be saved?

This is a pretty old thread, but

Yes that is all the Pope said while encouraging us to meet atheists in the world wherever they are. To try to find a common ground to serve others and from that common place, hopefully atheists will find God.

I found it so strange that people think the Pope said atheists can be saved.

If that were the case, he may as well close the doors of the Catholic Church because there would be no need for missions, or sacraments, or mass, or prayers, or devotions, or theology, or anything.

Further, if the Pope had made such a decree, it would have been done in a major encyclical or decree since it would change 2000 years of Catholic doctrine. Instead all it was was the media taking a small comment in a homily and twisting it to meet their own objectives.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Please be kind in responding… IF…, I repeat, IF Pope Francis actually meant all people of good will are saved, wouldn’t that be a good thing? My brother is a very good and moral person. I would love to think that he would be in heaven.

It is fine to hope for such a thing. It is good to hope. But believing that we can be saved of our own accord through our own morality is a false belief. How can any of us ever be good enough? Where is the line drawn? No we need more, we need Christ’s redeeming work on the cross. We need to accept the gracious gift he gave us. That is what the church teaches, that is what Jesus told us in the great commission as well as the rest of his lives, and that is also what logically makes sense.

 

[Jon_S_1]

CTG I agree with 99% of that article. However one paragraph I am not so sure:

"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption…**

Did not the righteous just in the Bosom of Abraham do good when alive? Yes?
Were they redeemed…? Some say no, and resolve this contradiction by talking about “retro-active redemption” where a present day effect is explained by the future anticipated redemptive fruits of Christ. Personally I find that sort of “theology” just a little too other-worldly and stretched to be totally credible.

Any other solutions?

Maybe it would help to say;

Jesus is God
God is outside of time
The souls in abraham’s bosom are outside of time
God is eternal and his actions are eternal
Jesus’ work on the cross took place on earth, but had eternal ramifications outside our world.
These ramifications are not so much applied retroactively as they are simply applied, for time is of our world, not God’s.

 

[ericc]

Unbaptized Jews of the Old Testament are children of God.

The children of the promise to Abraham are his descendants.

-Tim-

The Jews are marked through circumcision. Gentiles need not be circumcised as baptism is the new circumcision.