The Lord`s prayer

[Isaiah45_9]

As I’ve studied a wide variety of descriptions of the idea of faith or faith working in love, the different sides are actually much more in accord than is commonly believed by any side.

There’s a lot of semantics involved, but yes.

Not by Faith Alone and Not by Works Alone.

Works without Faith are of no avail.

Faith without Works is of no avail.

 

[sennincatholic]

Pardon my complete and utter confusion.

It seems to me that non-Catholics generally believe that while it is good and pleasing to God to do good thing. They are not necessary for salvation. One is saved through God’s grace alone for the asking. Somewhat like saying “Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance whatever path you choose”

In contrast, Catholics believe that only God’s grace can save us and that God’s grace is bestowed upon us by virtue of our family bond and our earthly contribution. Somewhat like saying, " Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance provided you try to follow my example".

As a parent, knowing that a mentally challenged child (human sinners) could not possibly produce 100% in astrophysics (Jesus), but you need to strive even if you do not achieve.

That is what I am getting so far. This brings me back to the original question…to “forgive those who trespass against us”?? Are protestants required to do this or is it merely a suggestion or guideline.

well said …u get it!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

There are many Protestant fundamentalists who never say the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer at all.

Those who have a strong pietistic background believe that every word of every prayer must be made up on the spot to be ‘sincere, heard by God’. Written prayers even from Our Lord are evil and ‘insincere’ because they are prewriiten.

When I was raised in different fundamental denominations I never heard the Lord’s Prayer. I was taught that is was only something of an example only to model your own extempore prayers on and nothing else.

I was not aware of that. What Protestants don’t recite the Lord’s Prayer?

 

[Kliska]

That is what I am getting so far. This brings me back to the original question…to “forgive those who trespass against us”?? Are protestants required to do this or is it merely a suggestion or guideline.

From my perspective, the emphasis here is on the wrong bit; “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.” Scripture cannot be cherry picked as many on all sides like to do. Instead this shows us an extremely important point that is underscored in the rest of scripture; the reason that we should indeed forgive others is because He forgave us.

If we do not forgive others it shows we do not have an understanding of our OWN sin, hence there is the problem when it comes to salvation. To recognize God as Saviour we must understand that we must be saved from something, namely sin and its consequence. If we do not recognize that we have sin, as John says, the Truth is not in us. All of this is connected and is tied to our cognizance of ourselves as wretched sinners. If you don’t forgive others, you are not seeing that you, yourself are a sinner saved only by grace, and if you don’t see that, then whence comes salvation?

 

[Kliska]

I was not aware of that. What Protestants don’t recite the Lord’s Prayer?

Many different groups, such as certain evangelical and/or non-denominational churches. There is a church in my town, a Community Church, that never says it. Any Protestant church that tends to believe rote prayer can be vain repetition do not say it verbatim, but instead takes it as a teaching of how to pray and what form to pray in, rather than meaning for us to repeat it as presented.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

There’s a difference between punishment and things God has us do for sins we have done wrong, and the actions that spring from the Holy Spirit in our lives. All of us believe in “action” saving us; faith, in the Greek, is an active word. Trusting is an action word; it is a verb. Loving is an action word, it is a verb.

So far, absolutely correct.

These things, however, are not part of a prescribed physical act, such as what is required under the law.

Here you’re going astray.
Scripture tells us that God has prepared good works for each of us to do:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If we continually avoid doing those works put in our paths, we are sinning. Catholics call this a sin of omission. If we do it enough, it becomes a grave sin (like the rich man with Lazarus).

Another aspect of this, is that I would never take credit for any actual work or doing that would be considered good by God, it would be to the credit of the Holy Spirit within.

That also is Catholic teaching. You’re learning, Kliska!

Suppose you are a 5 year old child, and you tell “Mom” that you want $10 to buy “Dad” a gift. Fine, and “Dad” is overjoyed even though he knows that you didn’t spend your own money. Now, suppose that you took that $10 and spent most of it on yourself.

As I’ve studied a wide variety of descriptions of the idea of faith or faith working in love, the different sides are actually much more in accord than is commonly believed by any side.

Nearly. And as for the differences, you’ll eventually come around.

 

[Kliska]

Here you’re going astray.
Scripture tells us that God has prepared good works for each of us to do:

No, there is a difference between God preparing good works for us to do and those works meriting salvation. Yes sin is very broad; whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

That also is Catholic teaching. You’re learning, Kliska!

This is a Christian teaching, and I’ve know that for a long time, being taught by many good teachers since I was born. Please don’t presume that anytime a protestant shares something the RCC agrees with that we must be “learning” something we didn’t know before by exposure to RCC teaching.

Nearly. And as for the differences, you’ll eventually come around.

I believe as I’m taught and lead by the Spirit, if He desires me to change my mind, I have faith in Him, as I have the faith that He can change others minds if they are wrong.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Many different groups, such as certain evangelical and/or non-denominational churches. There is a church in my town, a Community Church, that never says it. Any Protestant church that tends to believe rote prayer can be vain repetition do not say it verbatim, but instead takes it as a teaching of how to pray and what form to pray in, rather than meaning for us to repeat it as presented.

I see. So even though Christ taught us the prayer and pointed to himself in the Eucharist, some Protestants don’t believe or at least practice what is taught in the Bible?

 

[Kliska]

I see. So even though Christ taught us the prayer and pointed to himself in the Eucharist, some Protestants don’t believe or at least practice what is taught in the Bible?

As with the way the RCC would say the same about Lutherans?

As you well know, it isn’t a disagreement amongst all of us Protestants (including Lutherans) about what is said, but how to interpret it and how to apply it.

 

[Darryl_B]

No, there is a difference between God preparing good works for us to do and those works meriting salvation. Yes sin is very broad; whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

To me the difference is like a person who steals $50 off another person. One will repent and ask God to forgive, and some might think that is sufficient. The Catholic understanding is the money also needs to be paid back.

Fixing the wrong. This is exactly what Jesus did. He fixed the wrong done by Adam (as Mary fixed the wrong that had been done by Eve).

Now there are some things that are done in this life that cannot be paid back. They cannot be fixed because of circumstances or what the act entails.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As with the way the RCC would say the same about Lutherans?

As you well know, it isn’t a disagreement amongst all of us Protestants (including Lutherans) about what is said, but how to interpret it and how to apply it.

It would be hard for a Lutheran to not recite the Our Father daily and especially and always in Church.

 

[Kliska]

To me the difference is like a person who steals $50 off another person. One will repent and ask God to forgive, and some might think that is sufficient. The Catholic understanding is the money also needs to be paid back.

Fixing the wrong. This is exactly what Jesus did. He fixed the wrong done by Adam (as Mary fixed the wrong that had been done by Eve).

Now there are some things that are done in this life that cannot be paid back. They cannot be fixed because of circumstances or what the act entails.

I think this is a Christian teaching in general… but more to the point, we shouldn’t steal anything at all. Speaking more to the OP; the idea in the Our Father is that we are to forgive those that trespass against us. So, if someone takes the 50 dollars from our purse/wallet, we are to be a forgiving sort of individual… and more, we are to love them and pray for them even if we get a chance to point out what they did was wrong in a loving way.

Further, we are called to go the extra mile; if I see a little girl crying that someone stole her doll, not only do I help her and try to find it, but if it is in my power, I should replace it for her. Our works echo into eternity, but they can never merit salvation, as grace is unmerited favor. Again, I think most of us agree on that.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

No, there is a difference between God preparing good works for us to do and those works meriting salvation.

It depends on what you mean by “meriting.”

Care to explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46?

Romans 2:6-7?

Ro 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

James 2:24?
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This is a Christian teaching, and I’ve know that for a long time, being taught by many good teachers since I was born. Please don’t presume that anytime a protestant shares something the RCC agrees with that we must be “learning” something we didn’t know before by exposure to RCC teaching.

Well, since the Catholic faith was around and had been teaching that for 1500 years before protestantism, I think I am safe in that presumption.

I believe as I’m taught and lead by the Spirit, if He desires me to change my mind, I have faith in Him, as I have the faith that He can change others minds if they are wrong.

I believe so, too, as long as you don’t obstinately block His will.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I think this is a Christian teaching in general… but more to the point, we shouldn’t steal anything at all. Speaking more to the OP; the idea in the Our Father is that we are to forgive those that trespass against us. So, if someone takes the 50 dollars from our purse/wallet, we are to be a forgiving sort of individual… and more, we are to love them and pray for them even if we get a chance to point out what they did was wrong in a loving way.

The point is, we are asking God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others.
In other words, if we don’t forgive, we won’t be forgiven.
I.e.: NO Once-Saved-Always-Saved

See also Matthew 18:23-35.
Especially verse 35:
Mt 18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

 

[Kliska]

It depends on what you mean by “meriting.”

There’s not really any wiggle room on what it means to “merit.” In fact, there are many good RCC teachings about us not earning or meriting our salvation.

From Catholic.com

The Catholic Church has … constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God’s grace–completely unmerited by works–that one is saved.

Well, since the Catholic faith was around and had been teaching that for 1500 years before protestantism, I think I am safe in that presumption.

Well, at the least we can agree that the teaching that the Holy Spirit deserves the credit for any good fruit comes from God. I point out your presumption because the RCC itself teaches that other Christian communities also teach truth, even though they deny that those communities contain or teach the “fullness of the truth” so it is presumptuous on your part that I, or any protestant, would have to come to that correct teaching by learning that straightforward teaching by interacting with Catholics.

It is to everyone’s detriment to downplay the knowledge and truth that other Christians hold.

I believe so, too, as long as you don’t obstinately block His will.

Yes, as is the same with you, me, and all believers.

 

[Darryl_B]

Our works echo into eternity, but they can never merit salvation, as grace is unmerited favor.

And again this is Catholic teaching. Our works dont get us to salvation, but they can block salvation. If I tell a child to take the rubbish out, and they do for the next 2 years, I could give them $1000000. Do they deserve it? No. Nowhere near that. If I also tell a child to take the rubbish out and they do it once, I could give them $1000000. Do they deserve it? No.

Well done good and faithful servant. Notice the word ‘good’ conjuncted to ‘faith’. That is not an echo Im hearing there. In fact the work good preceeds the word faithful and it therefore more relevant to the statement.

With regard to not stealing you are correct that we should not steal, that is beside the point though since it is making an analogy of any sin which I thought you might be able to grasp better being quantitative in nature. Instead you avoid it by claiming the ideology of perfection.

As I said forgiveness is only half of the fixing. As I pointed out Jesus came to fix what Adam did, not just forgive what Adam did. This is the model we follow. That is because justice ultimately belongs to God, not us.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

There’s a difference between punishment and things God has us do for sins we have done wrong, and the actions that spring from the Holy Spirit in our lives. All of us believe in “action” saving us; faith, in the Greek, is an active word. Trusting is an action word; it is a verb. Loving is an action word, it is a verb. These things, however, are not part of a prescribed physical act, such as what is required under the law. Hence, Jesus gives us a new way of looking that the commandments through the lens of Spirit and love, instead of letter.

Another aspect of this, is that I would never take credit for any actual work or doing that would be considered good by God, it would be to the credit of the Holy Spirit within. Only God is good and can truly do good. Our job is to yield. So, the Spirit works through us and guides us and our job is to hope, trust, love, etc… So we do action without working our way to Heaven.

As I’ve studied a wide variety of descriptions of the idea of faith or faith working in love, the different sides are actually much more in accord than is commonly believed by any side.

I ask again.

What do you consider works then if not the result of an action or effort?

Are you required to 'forgive those who trespass against us?

When I am presented with an opportunity to serve God (give to the poor person, help someone, forgive etc) I have a choice to make: do I act as a servant of God or do I do whatever I want.

As a Catholic person it is my understanding that I must allow the Holy Spirit, bend my knee and say to God ‘I am Yours’ and do the task at hand. If I choose not to, I have sinned. I have to ask for forgiveness and try to do better.

As a non-Catholic, it sounds like, because works are not required, you can choose to help a person in need or not without any effect on your salvation. It is really up to the person.
Is that a fair statement.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

There’s not really any wiggle room on what it means to “merit.” In fact, there are many good RCC teachings about us not earning or meriting our salvation.

But you avoided addressing the scripture I cited.

Are you being obstinate?
(Sorry, couldn’t help myself)

 

[ltwin]

How would you explain:
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

First, this passage is not talking about the last judgment, when everyone whose ever lived will be judged. This judgement, given the context, is limited to those who make it their aim to please Christ. Those who serve Christ will have to account for what they have accomplished for him. This is a judgment based on works. But it does not determine our eternal destiny, but rather is a judgment of either praise or blame (see 1 Corinthians 4:4-5).

We don’t know what kind of punishment Paul envisions, but it is a real one. In 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul wrote, “If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” So Christians will receive punishment or blessing according to what they have done in life (“the body”). As Christians, our bodies have become temples of the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is right that we be held accountable for what we do with it.

We don’t know whether this judgment will occur at our deaths or at the Lord’s coming, but it will happen.

 

[ltwin]

It seems to me that non-Catholics generally believe that while it is good and pleasing to God to do good thing. They are not necessary for salvation. One is saved through God’s grace alone for the asking. Somewhat like saying “Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance whatever path you choose”

In contrast, Catholics believe that only God’s grace can save us and that God’s grace is bestowed upon us by virtue of our family bond and our earthly contribution. Somewhat like saying, " Son, you are my flesh and blood, you will receive your inheritance provided you try to follow my example".

Well, the way I’d put it is that following Christ’s example is integral to being a Christian. Receiving the inheritance of eternal life is also integral to being a Christian.

In my mind, both of these simultaneously flow out of being in Christ rather than one following from the other. I do not receive the inheritance of eternal life because I follow Christ’s example. Rather, I receive eternal life because I have died and am risen in Christ. Likewise, I follow Christ’s example because I have been made alive and re-born in him.

I go to heaven because Christ has redeemed me. I do good works because Christ has redeemed me. (Rather than I do good works to get to heaven). Both are integral to being one of the redeemed, but the former does not depend on the latter.

Are you required to 'forgive those who trespass against us?

Simply put yes.

As a Catholic person it is my understanding that I must allow the Holy Spirit, bend my knee and say to God ‘I am Yours’ and do the task at hand. If I choose not to, I have sinned. I have to ask for forgiveness and try to do better.

This is my understanding as well.

As a non-Catholic, it sounds like, because works are not required, you can choose to help a person in need or not without any effect on your salvation. It is really up to the person.
Is that a fair statement.

No. The New Testament repeatedly tells us that God is love and that those who do not love do not know God.

The difference, in my opinion, is not that Catholics are required to do good works and Protestants aren’t. The difference is that Catholics seem to emphasize the importance of human effort in producing good works, while Protestants emphasize that good works flow out of knowledge of the person of Christ and his will.

If we truly know and understand the love of God towards us, we will love others.