The Lord`s prayer

[EvangelCatholic]

As with the way the RCC would say the same about Lutherans?

As you well know, it isn’t a disagreement amongst all of us Protestants (including Lutherans) about what is said, but how to interpret it and how to apply it.

In the case of the Lord’s Prayer, it is not a difference between interpret and what is recited. We’re talking about the basics of the Christian faith and Lutherans can not re-interpret the regular recitation of the Our Father as a matter of option or different interpretation. This is where Lutheranism radically differs from some Protestants.

 

[andrewstx]

I was not aware of that. What Protestants don’t recite the Lord’s Prayer?

AFAIK, Baptists, “churches of Christ” restorationists, Pentecostals and most Evangelical Fundamentalists, and Holiness followers do not as a rule recite the Lord’s Prayer in their worship services. Of course I am sure that exceptions do exist occasionally, but rarely.

I was raised in fundamental churches and I never heard the Lord’s Prayer anywhere until as a teen I visited a main-line United Methodist church.

 

[andrewstx]

Many different groups, such as certain evangelical and/or non-denominational churches. There is a church in my town, a Community Church, that never says it. Any Protestant church that tends to believe rote prayer can be vain repetition do not say it verbatim, but instead takes it as a teaching of how to pray and what form to pray in, rather than meaning for us to repeat it as presented.

Exactly. In the ‘churches of Christ’ where I was raised and dunked but not before I was 16 years old the LP was thought of as a ‘model prayer’ only the ideas were supposed to be what we modeled our own extempore prayers on and that is all.

It was common to hear in that sect men start their prayers with “Father in heaven” and then add their own extempore prayers to it.

But you know all of those ‘sincere, from the heart’ extempore prayers sounded pretty much the same. Same words and phrases, just rearranged.

 

[Kliska]

Exactly. In the ‘churches of Christ’ where I was raised and dunked but not before I was 16 years old the LP was thought of as a ‘model prayer’ only the ideas were supposed to be what we modeled our own extempore prayers on and that is all.

It was common to hear in that sect men start their prayers with “Father in heaven” and then add their own extempore prayers to it.

But you know all of those ‘sincere, from the heart’ extempore prayers sounded pretty much the same. Same words and phrases, just rearranged.

Plus, people tend to have their own rote prayer even if they don’t realize it. We go into patterns and repeats a lot as humans, even whole prayer when they don’t really mean to. I’ve said it before; give me “rote prayer” over some of lecturing prayers I’ve heard in those protestant churches.

 

[andrewstx]

Plus, people tend to have their own rote prayer even if they don’t realize it. We go into patterns and repeats a lot as humans, even whole prayer when they don’t really mean to. I’ve said it before; give me “rote prayer” over some of lecturing prayers I’ve heard in those protestant churches.

AMEN!

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard the word ‘just’ in prayers, I would be a wealthy man.

 

[Kliska]

AMEN!

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard the word ‘just’ in prayers, I would be a wealthy man.

Sometimes it is hard to move past the “just.” lol

 

[ltwin]

Pentecostals don’t “recite” the prayer in public worship. However, we did memorize the prayer in Sunday school, along with the 23rd Psalm.

Also, I know several worship songs that set the Lord’s Prayer to music or either incorporate it in some way.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Pentecostals don’t “recite” the prayer in public worship. However, we did memorize the prayer in Sunday school, along with the 23rd Psalm.

Also, I know several worship songs that set the Lord’s Prayer to music or either incorporate it in some way.

What exactly is the issue Pentecostals have with reciting whole sections of Holy Scripture within the context of the Lord’s Prayer? How can the very prayer Christ taught us be a problem?

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Well, the way I’d put it is that following Christ’s example is integral to being a Christian. Receiving the inheritance of eternal life is also integral to being a Christian.

In my mind, both of these simultaneously flow out of being in Christ rather than one following from the other. I do not receive the inheritance of eternal life because I follow Christ’s example. Rather, I receive eternal life because I have died and am risen in Christ. Likewise, I follow Christ’s example because I have been made alive and re-born in him.

I go to heaven because Christ has redeemed me. I do good works because Christ has redeemed me. (Rather than I do good works to get to heaven). Both are integral to being one of the redeemed, but the former does not depend on the latter.

Simply put yes.

This is my understanding as well.

No. The New Testament repeatedly tells us that God is love and that those who do not love do not know God.

The difference, in my opinion, is not that Catholics are required to do good works and Protestants aren’t. The difference is that Catholics seem to emphasize the importance of human effort in producing good works, while Protestants emphasize that good works flow out of knowledge of the person of Christ and his will.

If we truly know and understand the love of God towards us, we will love others.

You puzzle me for sure. We agree that works should be part of a Christian life. We also agree that faith is a requirement for salvation. Where we disagree is the requirement/obligation to do good works for salvation.

If we agree that if you love God and open your heart in order to allow the Holy Spirit to work through you, good works are natural sequelae.

Why is it such a sticking point to have works associated with faith for salvation when one flows from the other?

It does not make sense to me that something does not have a consequence…absence of works without consequence (which many people I know have subscribed to) leads to a life where I can do what I want, when I want, how I want because my reward is locked in by my faith. I don`t have to do anything else.

You may argue that a life in Christ should not look like that and I would agree but there is no consequence to such a life in your faith alone model.

 

[ltwin]

What exactly is the issue Pentecostals have with reciting whole sections of Holy Scripture within the context of the Lord’s Prayer? How can the very prayer Christ taught us be a problem?

We don’t have a “problem” with it. It’s just that when we come to church most Pentecostal churches don’t “recite” things. If we pray, we pray in concert–all together praying our own prayers.

 

[ltwin]

You may argue that a life in Christ should not look like that and I would agree but there is no consequence to such a life in your faith alone model.

Sure there is. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is. While it may be hard for us mere mortals to tell the wheat from the weeds, Christ knows our hearts. One day, those weeds will be thrown into the fire. He knows if we have the kind of faith that James talked about, the faith that leads to love expressed through good works. If we don’t have that kind of faith then we don’t have faith at all.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

First, this passage is not talking about the last judgment, when everyone whose ever lived will be judged. This judgement, given the context, is limited to those who make it their aim to please Christ. Those who serve Christ will have to account for what they have accomplished for him. This is a judgment based on works. But it does not determine our eternal destiny, but rather is a judgment of either praise or blame (see 1 Corinthians 4:4-5).

It is indeed about the personal judgement, where your final destiny is determined.

Elsewhere, St. Paul tells us that this IS indeed about your final destiny:
Ro 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

We don’t know what kind of punishment Paul envisions, but it is a real one.
In 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul wrote, “If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” So Christians will receive punishment or blessing according to what they have done in life (“the body”). As Christians, our bodies have become temples of the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is right that we be held accountable for what we do with it.

This would make no sense at all given a rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory.
Punishment? In Heaven? Temporal punishment?
Sure sounds like Purgatory to me, without calling it by that name.

 

[Kliska]

If we are talking forgiveness; if you have the person him/herself going through temporal punishment in Purgatory, then why does the RCC teach that things that other people do or intend to help get someone out of Purgatory are efficacious but Christ’s suffering and death for us is not, temporally speaking?

That is a big difference in theology for most protestants and Catholic teaching; we believe we will answer for our own works, no one else’s, and our works will be tried by fire, not us. There isn’t anything that someone else can do that is applied to me, save Christ, and it is His suffering and offering and sacrifice that assures we don’t go through something such as purgatory. In short, we tend to believe that everything that the RCC ascribes to human intercessions for souls in Purgatory are already covered perfectly and completely by Jesus so we don’t have to go through Purgatory. However, our works are indeed tried, and we also believe our physical body indeed must be changed by God in the twinkling of an eye and reunited with our souls upon resurrection. So, the Purgation happens, it is just not conceived of the same way.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If we are talking forgiveness; if you have the person him/herself going through temporal punishment in Purgatory, then why does the RCC teach that things that other people do or intend to help get someone out of Purgatory are efficacious but Christ’s suffering and death for us is not, temporally speaking?

That is a big difference in theology for most protestants and Catholic teaching; we believe we will answer for our own works, no one else’s, and our works will be tried by fire, not us. There isn’t anything that someone else can do that is applied to me, save Christ, and it is His suffering and offering and sacrifice that assures we don’t go through something such as purgatory. In short, we tend to believe that everything that the RCC ascribes to human intercessions for souls in Purgatory are already covered perfectly and completely by Jesus so we don’t have to go through Purgatory. However, our works are indeed tried, and we also believe our physical body indeed must be changed by God in the twinkling of an eye and reunited with our souls upon resurrection. So, the Purgation happens, it is just not conceived of the same way.

This is that point I believe maybe we touched on before with the particular and general judgement. The difference applies in regards to for example the apostolic Church’s in this regard, Rome has somewhat elaborated further.

You might find this helpful for a couple pages.

google.com/url?q=http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev11.php&sa=U&ei=nrNrTtzkK47egQf96ozdBQ&ved=0CBgQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNEqZgzEjj08uBFLX_Ytv7bsfMqIgA

Peace

 

[pablope]

If we are talking forgiveness; if you have the person him/herself going through temporal punishment in Purgatory, then why does the RCC teach that things that other people do or intend to help get someone out of Purgatory are efficacious but Christ’s suffering and death for us is not, temporally speaking?

y.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

*No. It means that Christ’s suffering and death must be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5 speaks about the love, “Love bears one another’s burdens.” We do that just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That’s what fathers and mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters and our spiritual children, as well. That’s what Paul takes for granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

Our opportunity to merit is only on earth because here we can choose to suffer. In purgatory we only accept it. There’s no merit. Glory, sure, but no additional merit. In this earth the Church Militant acquires merits, not merits in addition to Christ, but Christ’s merit bestowed in filling us up, bestowed upon us. When God crowns our works, He is only crowning His own achievements. When He rewards our works, He is only crowning His own work in us through the Holy Spirit, the life of Christ being lived out in us.*

 

[Kliska]

*No. It means that Christ’s suffering and death must be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5 speaks about the love, “Love bears one another’s burdens.” We do that just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That’s what fathers and mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters and our spiritual children, as well. That’s what Paul takes for granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

Our opportunity to merit is only on earth because here we can choose to suffer. In purgatory we only accept it. There’s no merit. Glory, sure, but no additional merit. In this earth the Church Militant acquires merits, not merits in addition to Christ, but Christ’s merit bestowed in filling us up, bestowed upon us. When God crowns our works, He is only crowning His own achievements. When He rewards our works, He is only crowning His own work in us through the Holy Spirit, the life of Christ being lived out in us.*

I understand this is the teaching, I just don’t see how it adds up logically with the idea that Purgatory is so we, personally, can expiate or pay for or clean up from sin, and then turn around and say that another human here on Earth can actually do or “fill up” what Jesus’ sacrifice could not or did not do in eternity (here on earth is different, as we are His body in the present age). An Eternal Perfect being took on all punishment for sin, all condemnation, past, present, and future. He took on actual temporal punishment, but its effect is eternal, because He Himself is eternal.

 

[pablope]

I understand this is the teaching, I just don’t see how it adds up logically with the idea that Purgatory is so we, personally, can expiate or pay for or clean up from sin, and then turn around and say that another human here on Earth can actually do or “fill up” what Jesus’ sacrifice could not or did not do in eternity (here on earth is different, as we are His body in the present age). An Eternal Perfect being took on all punishment for sin, all condemnation, past, present, and future. He took on actual temporal punishment, but its effect is eternal, because He Himself is eternal.

Remember what Paul said in colossians:

Colossians 1:24 ►

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the

*The fact is, if we are truly sorry, we will see the need and the propriety for restitution. Not just monetary, physical restitution for broken windows, but psychical, spiritual restitution for broken souls.

The people we’ve hurt, the people we’ve refused to bless, the people we’ve refused to give ourselves to and to give Christ to, the incredible opportunities that we’ve missed because we were lazy and slothful, proud and arrogant. Those memories will burn more than any physical fire when our souls encounter the fiery love of Christ in the Holy Spirit. All those missed opportunities we willfully refused. It’s one thing to miss opportunities for imperfections and faults, another thing to sin deliberately by not giving ourselves. It might not be mortal sin, but we are not only wounding ourselves, but we are wounding the souls who depend upon us.

Now are we paying for our sins? No, they are paid for. And the only way we can make restitution is because the life of Christ through the Holy Spirit has been poured out in us so that through our sufferings Christ’s glory can be reproduced in us. But there’s no short cut. Hebrews says that Christ, though a Son, learned obedience through suffering. Why did He suffer? That His human nature could learn obedience and impart that human nature to us through the flesh and blood in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ. When we receive that human nature of the eternal Son of God and historical Son of Man, we are enabled to learn obedience through suffering. There’s no other way to learn obedience.*

And further by John Vianney:

saints.sqpn.com/catechism-on-suffering-by-saint-john-vianney/

There are two ways of suffering — to suffer with love, and to suffer without love. The saints suffered everything with joy, patience, and perseverance, because they loved. As for us, we suffer with anger, vexation, and weariness, because we do not love. If we loved God, we should love crosses, we should wish for them, we should take pleasure in them. . . . We should be happy to be able to suffer for the love of Him who lovingly suffered for us. Of what do we complain? Alas! the poor infidels, who have not the happiness of knowing God and His infinite loveliness, have the same crosses that we have; but they have not the same consolations. You say it is hard? No, it is easy, it is consoling, it is sweet; it is happiness. Only we must love while we suffer, and suffer while we love.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

If we are talking forgiveness;

Nope. We’re not talking forgiveness.
People in Purgatory are forgiven already.

So, your premise is incorrect to begin with.

That is a big difference in theology for most protestants and Catholic teaching; we believe we will answer for our own works, no one else’s,

Really? You can’t even rely on Christ’s works?

and our works will be tried by fire, not us.

and yet, the PERSON will be saved but only as through fire.

Your stated belief doesn’t comport with scripture.

There isn’t anything that someone else can do that is applied to me, save Christ,

This is scripturally untrue. For example, Moses pleaded for the Israelites.

St. John, in inspired scripture, says something that contradicts your belief:
1Jo 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

In short, we tend to believe that everything that the RCC ascribes to human intercessions for souls in Purgatory are already covered perfectly and completely by Jesus so we don’t have to go through Purgatory.

Despite what scripture and Apostolic Tradition say?

 

[Kliska]

Remember what Paul said in colossians:

Colossians 1:24 ►

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church

Yes, exactly as I said; we recognize that suffering has purpose in serving Christ as He commanded to the body that is here with us on earth. We are to serve and love and suffer for the body of Christ around us, facing even death for those that are our brothers and sisters. That is not talking about punishment or reward in the afterlife. We are each called to fulfill our role as the hands and feet and mouth, etc… of Christ on this earth because He is not physically with us as He was before the crucifixion. Our suffering is here and now, not after we die.

 

[Kliska]

Nope. We’re not talking forgiveness.
People in Purgatory are forgiven already.

So, your premise is incorrect to begin with.

Sorry, no. The whole topic of this thread is forgiveness. Yes, I know the notorious nature of going off topic, but that is what I was directly referring to; our forgiveness of sin.

Really? You can’t even rely on Christ’s works?

It doesn’t seem you are reading my replies; His work is the ONLY thing we are to rely on as far as works are concerned. His work is the only efficacious work, and that is true even when we do “good works” through the power of the Holy Spirit. He gets all the glory for suffering, and He is the one that also took all punishment, temporal and its eternal effects, for us.

and yet, the PERSON will be saved but only as through fire.

Your stated belief doesn’t comport with scripture.

My statement lines up exactly; works tried, person fine.

This is scripturally untrue. For example, Moses pleaded for the Israelites.

Old Covenant vs. New and Temporal here and now vs. eternal reward/punishment.

1Jo 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

I don’t get what you are trying to get at here. There is the unforgivable sin, no one can faithe for me. Sure, people can pray for one another; we are commanded to do so, but if they are saved, it is because they bend their will to God’s will and turn to Him. If they don’t, nothing I do or don’t do will matter a hill of beans. If someone is going around blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I’m not going to pray that God forgive them for that , but I can pray that they get put in every possible situation where they may repent.

Despite what scripture and Apostolic Tradition say?

You know very well that most protestants see no evidence of a place of Purgatory (and the Orthodox see it differently as well), but rather purgation of a different sort than the RCC does, and we see our belief clearly backed up by scripture. That you disagree with that, and I disagree with the RCC position is a given.