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Reformed
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I don’t think all Catholics would agree with your statement. There are Augustinian Catholics who are very like minded with Calvinists on this particular topic.
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ncgolf
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Why 1 Peter 5:8-9, “Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him steadfast in the faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.”
This seems to indicate believers are specifically targeted by the evil one. Why would the evil one target people who are untouchable by him? Peter also seems to indicate a strong faith, in a way, invites the evil one to get someone to stray but resist knowing other believers too are undergoing similar temptations. If the elect (believers) are protected then why would the devil waste his time?
Why the word opponent … this indicates someone against you … and a struggle. Peter says resist … indicating some sort of struggle where perhaps the outcome is unknown. When does this struggle end?
This seems to indicate believers are specifically targeted by the evil one. Why would the evil one target people who are untouchable by him? Peter also seems to indicate a strong faith, in a way, invites the evil one to get someone to stray but resist knowing other believers too are undergoing similar temptations. If the elect (believers) are protected then why would the devil waste his time?
Why the word opponent … this indicates someone against you … and a struggle. Peter says resist … indicating some sort of struggle where perhaps the outcome is unknown. When does this struggle end?
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CHESTERTONRULES
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SIA
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Of course God has foreknowledge. We were saved before we even knew God.
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Reformed
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Although we were predestined to believe in Christ, we were not saved until we heard and received the gospel of grace proclaimed to us.
Ephesians 1-2
Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
By Grace Through Faith
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [7] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [8] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
One in Christ
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, [9] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by [10] the Spirit.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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ncgolf
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No … but I used to play one on TV
… but seriously where would you ever get that idea???
My point is in a dogmatic point … Trinity … dual nature of Christ … nothing in Scripture contracts the dogmatic statement.
but in the OP … Ralph is saying Jesus’s words in the Lord’s prayer contradicts the conclusions drawn by those who believe predestination and assured salvation. Christ asked us to pray to avoid temptation from the evil one … why? What can the evil one do to the elect to harm them … what can the evil one do to the non-elect to change either one’s status before God?
What must Christ mean to you if assured salvation is the correct interpretation found in Scripture?
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SIA
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Mickey
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Stop being so paranoid! Ncgolf said that the Scriptures are not contradictory in the teaching of the Trinity and you disagreed.
Here is what you said:
“I have to strongly refute you that Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.”
This says that you refute that the Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Try to be a little more clear and a little less sensitive.
Furthermore, I do not go around accusing people of being former mormons–show a little respect.
Thank you.
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Mickey
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You will not find many double predestination Catholics.
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Mickey
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Contarini
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It’s truly weird–in order to answer your question, I picked up my copy of Augustine’s anti-Pelagian writings, opened it more or less at random, and lo and behold there was a passage dealing with this (which may just be a sign of how common this argument is in Augustine): *On the Gift of Perseverance, *chaps. 8-15 (this is part of an exposition of the Lord’s Prayer as a whole, which Augustine is using to argue for his position against the Pelagians). I quote from chap. 13:
I admit that this is very different from the Calvinist position inasmuch as Augustine does not believe that the gift of perseverance is given to all the regenerate. So from his perspective it makes sense that we should continue to pray not to be allowed to fall away from God, since this always remains a real possibility. I am certainly not interested in defending the Calvinist, as opposed to the Augustinian, position here. (I don’t even entirely agree with Augustine on predestination and related issues, but I take him very seriously and try to harmonize my views with his as much as possible.)
Edwin
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GailMac
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Dear Raphinal - you state:“Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?” He never said that. There are ten Commandments, the beautitudes, and a few Church precepts besides. Which of these did you break to get yourself so confused? Talk to a priest in the Confessional.
Peace,
Gail
Peace,
Gail
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CHESTERTONRULES
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That’s a very timely quote!
One issue I have with Augustine’s conclusion is that requesting God’s help is an act of free will.
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ralphinal
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I am in no way, shape, or form confused. I do need to go to confession, as we all do, but that is totally unrelated.
I am trying to get some information from the Calvinists on here.
So far, I have yet to see Jesus say anything that supports this doctrine, and I hold that he spoke against it.
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Reformed
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ralphinal
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Ok. I was afraid that you had a good counter-argument.
Augustine is fine with my position, I guess
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Reformed
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