The Maciel case and the Pope

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Quote from the Holy Father:
“In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1 percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type,” Ratzinger said in a rare interview in 2002. “The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts. Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the church.”

Well, I guess this is the Holy Father’s response :hmmm:

Shannin
 
Jason Berry has a book to sell. This is his last qote in the article:
“If he removes Maciel, he makes a statement that he is serious about a crackdown on this world abuse scandal,” Berry said of Ratzinger. “If he doesn’t remove Maciel, then the pope himself is part of the problem.”
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Berry doesn’t mention or doesn’t recognize a third option: Maciel is innocent.
 
Yes, but in all fairness, if Maciel is indeed innocent, it’s all the more reason to thoroughly investigate this matter.

Shannin
 
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shannin:
Yes, but in all fairness, if Maciel is indeed innocent, it’s all the more reason to thoroughly investigate this matter.

Shannin
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Perhaps this is why it has taken so long. Maybe the issue wasn’t “shelved” as suggested, but being thoroughly investigated?
 
**In my opinion, and it is not much of one either.
I think the Legionaires are the Pope’s new Spiritual Army.
It used to be the Jesuits, but they decided to betray the Pope instead of promoting and defending him.
I guess they feel they need to get back at Pope Clement for betryaing them hundreds of years ago.

As far as Maciel, I cannot for the life of me believe that grown men in their 60’s would accuse him if it were not true.
Grown men do not want to be known as having been molested. If I were molested by a catholic priest, I would get it out along with any and all other baggage I had with a psychologist and move on. I would never tell anyone else.

This would be way too humiliating for me.
I could never say I had a sexual encounter with another man much less a priest.

For grown men to attract negative attention upon themselves is beyond me. Especially men in the autum of their years. I cant see it.

I could be wrong, but Men just do not publically humiliate themselves like that for no reason.

I still respect and love the Legionaires and it leader, but I believe those old men were not lying. I could see one person making that up, but not a half dozen old men.

**
 
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shannin:
Yes, but in all fairness, if Maciel is indeed innocent, it’s all the more reason to thoroughly investigate this matter.

Shannin
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Actually, in thinking on this, it seems to me that another possible reason is to conduct the investigation while the parties are still alive. Fr. Maciel is up there in years and perhaps this will be the last opportunity to put this to rest for once and all.

Of course, even if found innocent, Fr. Maciel will still have detractors. Even St. Josemaria Escriva is slandered today as being “mean”. And didn’t Christopher Hitchens write an entire book about Blessed Mother Theresa (when she was still alive) basically stating that she’s not as great as everyone thinks she is?
 
Piusx said:
**In my opinion, and it is not much of one either.
I think the Legionaires are the Pope’s new Spiritual Army.
It used to be the Jesuits, but they decided to betray the Pope instead of promoting and defending him.
I guess they feel they need to get back at Pope Clement for betryaing them hundreds of years ago.

As far as Maciel, I cannot for the life of me believe that grown men in their 60’s would accuse him if it were not true.
Grown men do not want to be known as having been molested. If I were molested by a catholic priest, I would get it out along with any and all other baggage I had with a psychologist and move on. I would never tell anyone else.

This would be way too humiliating for me.
I could never say I had a sexual encounter with another man much less a priest.

For grown men to attract negative attention upon themselves is beyond me. Especially men in the autum of their years. I cant see it.

I could be wrong, but Men just do not publically humiliate themselves like that for no reason.

I still respect and love the Legionaires and it leader, but I believe those old men were not lying. I could see one person making that up, but not a half dozen old men.
**
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I understand what you’re saying, but have you ever seen an episode of Dr. Phil? There seems to be no shortage of people willing to humiliate themselves for all sorts of strange reasons.

I once was the subject of an investigation by a volunteer organization (not Church related) for an incident (not of any sexual nature) that someone made up about me. It was a complete fabrication and I was exonerated. The person who made the accusation had to go through some trouble to do this and to this day I have absolutely no idea why she did it.

I have no personal knowledge of Fr. Maciel or his accusers, but my point is that people can and do make things up to slander others and sometimes the motive is unfathomable.
 
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StJeanneDArc:
I understand what you’re saying, but have you ever seen an episode of Dr. Phil? There seems to be no shortage of people willing to humiliate themselves for all sorts of strange reasons.

I once was the subject of an investigation by a volunteer organization (not Church related) for an incident (not of any sexual nature) that someone made up about me. It was a complete fabrication and I was exonerated. The person who made the accusation had to go through some trouble to do this and to this day I have absolutely no idea why she did it.

I have no personal knowledge of Fr. Maciel or his accusers, but my point is that people can and do make things up to slander others and sometimes the motive is unfathomable.
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**I agree with you. We may never know the truth. I do not believe Maciel is a bad guy even if he did do something wrong. We are all human. He cant be as bad as they make him out to be because of the fact that he formed a great order. That does not just happen. Great orders are formed in the heart of Christ. His order bears good fruit.

I just have this gut feeling that old men in their 60’s could not make that up. Not that many old men either.

Many many clergy have made mistakes in their early days and have totally converted and refomed themselves in monastic places. Maybe Maciel did this. Who knows.
I hope it all comes out in a good way. It seems to be very quiet concerning this particular incident.
Thank God.

**
 
Piusx said:
**I agree with you. We may never know the truth. I do not believe Maciel is a bad guy even if he did do something wrong. We are all human. He cant be as bad as they make him out to be because of the fact that he formed a great order. That does not just happen. Great orders are formed in the heart of Christ. His order bears good fruit.

I just have this gut feeling that old men in their 60’s could not make that up. Not that many old men either.

Many many clergy have made mistakes in their early days and have totally converted and refomed themselves in monastic places. Maybe Maciel did this. Who knows.
I hope it all comes out in a good way. It seems to be very quiet concerning this particular incident.
Thank God.

**
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This seems reasonable except for the fact that Fr. Maciel is *currently *denying that he ever committed any of these sins. If he actually did do any of these things, then his current denial puts him in a state of mortal sin (even if he repented of his original sins). Could he be fallen from grace and still found and lead (until quite recently) an order that bears so much good fruit in the world?
 
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shannin:
Yes, but in all fairness, if Maciel is indeed innocent, it’s all the more reason to thoroughly investigate this matter.
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The matter has been thoroughly investigated. The charges are baseless. Berry and company are professional scandal-mongers out to make a buck.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The LofC communications director released a statement related to this on April 23. You can read it here: legionaryfacts.org/newstatement.html

Reading it makes me question whether there actually is a new investigation into Fr. Maciel. The release states that neither Fr. Maciel nor the Legion has been contacted regarding an investigation. I don’t really know how these investigations procede, but common sense tells me that the subject of the investigation would be notified.

Another poster mentioned that it seems to be quiet regarding this. Could this be because nothing is really happening after all?
 
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StJeanneDArc:
The LofC communications director released a statement related to this on April 23. You can read it here: legionaryfacts.org/newstatement.html

Reading it makes me question whether there actually is a new investigation into Fr. Maciel. The release states that neither Fr. Maciel nor the Legion has been contacted regarding an investigation. I don’t really know how these investigations procede, but common sense tells me that the subject of the investigation would be notified.

Another poster mentioned that it seems to be quiet regarding this. Could this be because nothing is really happening after all?
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There’s no doubt given what I have read in a variety of media reports, including Catholic ones, that the case originally filed in 1998 (this is distinct from the charges that were investigated much much earlier), has been reopened. It is natural for things to be quiet as a certain secrecy has to be observed regarding the investigation. It would to be totally improper for the Vatican prosecutor (“Promoter of Justice”) to hold press conferences about all the variety of cases he deals with.
 
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tuopaolo:
There’s no doubt given what I have read in a variety of media reports, including Catholic ones, that the case originally filed in 1998 (this is distinct from the charges that were investigated much much earlier), has been reopened. It is natural for things to be quiet as a certain secrecy has to be observed regarding the investigation. It would to be totally improper for the Vatican prosecutor (“Promoter of Justice”) to hold press conferences about all the variety of cases he deals with.
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I think you’re right about the Vatican keeping quiet to the general public. What I was wondering about is whether it is normal procedure to contact the subject of the investigation. The statement issued by the Legion indicates that they have not been contacted about this.

Furthermore, all of the reports I’ve seen have been based on Jason Berry’s report that the investigation has been re-opened. Have you seen anything that independently corroborates this?
 
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StJeanneDArc:
I think you’re right about the Vatican keeping quiet to the general public. What I was wondering about is whether it is normal procedure to contact the subject of the investigation. The statement issued by the Legion indicates that they have not been contacted about this.
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My understanding/impression is that they only contact the subject of the investigation in cases like this when it is necessary for him to know for the purposes of his defense. As the case has not yet proceeded to trial, I think it would be normal for him not to have been contacted yet. It would be the same with regard to investigations made in some civil jurisdictions. For example, when the FBI investigates someone, they don’t tell the person necessarily that he is being investigated!

But I don’t know this for a fact.
Furthermore, all of the reports I’ve seen have been based on Jason Berry’s report that the investigation has been re-opened. Have you seen anything that independently corroborates this?
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I don’t know. I didn’t actually pay attention to the bylines when I read the various reports in various publications.

BTW, my understanding is that the crime (crime under Church law) that is being investigated is not sexual abuse as such as the ecclesiastical statute of limitations for that has already passed (though the CDF can lift the statute of limitations if it chooses for a particular case) but the crime of solicitation which relates to an abuse of the sacrament of confession where in relation to the sacrament the confessor tempts the penitent (whether adult or child) to sin gravely against chastity (whether by means of touching or words and whether the sin is executed or not)
 
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StJeanneDArc:
Jason Berry has a book to sell. This is his last qote in the article:

Berry doesn’t mention or doesn’t recognize a third option: Maciel is innocent.
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Remove Maciel? Hasn’t Father Maciel stepped down from being the Head of the Legionaires? If so, he can’t be asked to “step down” since he’s not anywhere to “step down” from…:confused:

I think you’re right…this guy wants to sell books.

cheers
 
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tuopaolo:
My understanding/impression is that they only contact the subject of the investigation in cases like this when it is necessary for him to know for the purposes of his defense. As the case has not yet proceeded to trial, I think it would be normal for him not to have been contacted yet. It would be the same with regard to investigations made in some civil jurisdictions. For example, when the FBI investigates someone, they don’t tell the person necessarily that he is being investigated!

But I don’t know this for a fact.

I don’t know. I didn’t actually pay attention to the bylines when I read the various reports in various publications.

BTW, my understanding is that the crime (crime under Church law) that is being investigated is not sexual abuse as such as the ecclesiastical statute of limitations for that has already passed (though the CDF can lift the statute of limitations if it chooses for a particular case) but the crime of solicitation which relates to an abuse of the sacrament of confession where in relation to the sacrament the confessor tempts the penitent (whether adult or child) to sin gravely against chastity (whether by means of touching or words and whether the sin is executed or not)
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Thanks, that clarifies some things for me. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
 
Was not Christ himself also accused by one of his own?

“You shall know a tree by its fruit.” Look at the fruit of Fr. Maciel: the Legionaries of Christ and Regnum Christi. One would be hard-pressed to find fruit so marvelous elsewhere in the Church.
 
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Xavier4Life:
Was not Christ himself also accused by one of his own?

“You shall know a tree by its fruit.” Look at the fruit of Fr. Maciel: the Legionaries of Christ and Regnum Christi. One would be hard-pressed to find fruit so marvelous elsewhere in the Church.
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I agree with you but thats part of the problem.

Those who are attacking Fr Maciel also attack the Legion and hold that view that there is something wrong with the Legion and that they do nothing but brainwash their members.
 
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