The Man Muhammad

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I am sorry if the act was not done in the way you believe makes it “Islam” but it was done shouting to Allah in the way of Islam. The persons who did it, did it in the name if Islam. That you do not support the act does not change that. That you do not call it a “Muslim Act” does not change that. They did it in the name of Islam.

Driving the airplanes into the buildings on September 11 and murdering thousands of people was an act done in the name of Islam according to those persons who did it. This is a matter of record.

Muslims commit violence in the name of their religion in various ways. This is a fact that Islam has to deal with. You cannot escape that fact by saying it is not a “Muslim act”. It was done in the name of Islam.

It might be useful for the followers of Islam to have someone akin to our Holy Father, the Pope. Someone who could, in matters of Islam, define the religion, by calling out those who go beyond it, to pronounce them the Islam version of “excommunicate”. But Islam has no central authority, no one in authority that can distinguish lawful acts done in the name of Islam from those that are not lawful.

And so it is up to Muslims in general to correct those who commit evil in the name of Islam. It is not up to the rest of us to accept evil because it was not done according to any particular version of Islam. Muslims, including you, need to correct other Muslims who are doing wrong in the name of Islam. If it is not a religious act, YOU need to correct those who are defiling your religion. It is not enough to say “this is not a Muslim act”.

The acts of September 11 were done in the name of Islam. You cannot change that. What you can do is change thinking of the people who continue to do violence in the name of your religion. You might have more success by working with those who are Muslim and want to commit violence in the name of religion, rather than speaking with Catholics who are not intent on violence. Just a thought 🙂
 
Eden said:
It’s in the Quran. It says to kill the unbeliever.
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Hi
The Christians as well as Muslims believe that Jesus was a peaceful person; he always talked with wisdom and tried to convince others with rationality, reasons and arguments. There are no two opinions about Jesus being peaceful. Yet we find following words on record from JesusYeshuaIssa in the Catholic NTBible.

Luke 12:49-51 (NIV)
Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
Unquote
And I think that you already know that at one time Jesus commanded his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords. What do they do with the sword? It is not used to cut vegetables for eating, of course. In spite of all this Jesus is regarded as a peaceful person, I also believe as such. So if things are to be interpreted and clarified for Jesus: why not for Moses, Krishna and Muhammad. There is no harm to understand the true perspective of the events, after all the Catholics are not being suggested to convert to Jews or Hindus or Muslims; they remain steadfast to their faith, and try to understand the things peacefully. Not a big deal.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
The Christians as well as Muslims believe that Jesus was a peaceful person; he always talked with wisdom and tried to convince others with rationality, reasons and arguments. There are no two opinions about Jesus being peaceful. Yet we find following words on record from JesusYeshuaIssa in the Catholic NTBible.
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Jesus never stole from anyone, never killed anyone, never physically harmed anyone, never had one wife (let alone 20), never owned slaves and respected women (and not as only 1/2 a man). There is no comparison.
Luke 12:49-51 (NIV)
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Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
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I’m happy to talk about the Bible.

Let’s talk about Luke 12.

Here is what this verse means:

Jesus causes “division” wherever there is an unhealthy, unholy
union. Out of compassion and love, the Lord separates us from everything that keeps us from the love of the Father. This may appear cruel but it is in fact a great act of kindness, a divine kindness. Shakespeare has Hamlet addressing his mother, the queen, in these words: “I must be cruel only to be kind.”

Do you think it is good to be divided by your morality from people who are immoral? Divided by your chastity from people who are promiscuous? Divided by your honesty from people who lie and steal? I think you get the idea. There is no violence here, just a personal conviction to divide yourself from these things and the people who do these things, because of your faith in Jesus Christ.

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/EDC/ag0905.asp

This is not talking about killing anyone, robbing anyone, raping anyone or enslaving anyone. Jesus never did those things and never told his followers these things were O.K.
And I think that you already know that at one time Jesus commanded his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords. What do they do with the sword? It is not used to cut vegetables for eating, of course. In spite of all this Jesus is regarded as a peaceful person, I also believe as such.
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This was to protect themselves from any evil that may befall them, not for an aggressive action against others. Two swords cannot be used to stage an attack. They would have needed much more.

Again, Jesus did not murder, rape, steal, enslave or beat anyone. Muhammed did all of these things. There is no comparison.
So if things are to be interpreted and clarified for Jesus: why not for Moses, Krishna and Muhammad.
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Moses, Krishna and Muhammed are not God. Jesus is God. The Word made flesh.
There is no harm to understand the true perspective of the events, after all the Catholics are not being suggested to convert to Jews or Hindus or Muslims; they remain steadfast to their faith, and try to understand the things peacefully. Not a big deal.
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I would not even be interested in what Muslims believed if they would stop blowing themselves up around innocents.

You know that Muhammed killed people, right? How do you feel about that? Was it justified?
 
Eden said:
You know that Muhammed killed people, right?

Hi
I never said Muhammad killed any people. Did I ever say? Please quote from me.
GodAllahYHWH appointed Muhammad SAW KhatamunNabiyyeen, his ProphetMessenger. Muhammad lived up to the age of 53 years in Mecca.
I would request my friends here:
  1. Please mention name of just one person whom Muhammad converted to the fold of Islam by sword up to the age of 53 years. Please present evidence from Quran.
  2. Please mention name of one person whom Muhammad killed up to the age of 53 years for not accepting Islam. Please present evidence from Quran.
  3. Please mention name of one person who wanted to go back from Islam to his previous faith or another faith and Muhammad denied him his right and whom Muhammad killed for apostasy up to the age of 53 years. Please present evidence from Quran
    There is not a single case in all these categories.
    Thanks
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He killed hundreds of people and commanded his followers to kill hundreds more, and you’re concerned with their names? :eek:
 
pinkylee said:
When Muhammad heard from God (through an angel) he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)

Is this correct? I just googled it and find this

O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
74:2 قُمْ فَأَنذِرْ
Arise and deliver thy warning!
74:3 وَرَبَّكَ فَكَبِّرْ
And thy Lord do thou magnify!
74:4 وَثِيَابَكَ فَطَهِّرْ
And thy garments keep free from stain!
74:5 وَالرُّجْزَ فَاهْجُرْ
And all abomination shun!
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This is a good online source for Islamic scripture and Sunna. I found the same thing as pinkylee.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html

*074.001 *
YUSUFALI: O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
PICKTHAL: O thou enveloped in thy cloak,
SHAKIR: O you who are clothed!

*074.002 *
YUSUFALI: Arise and deliver thy warning!
PICKTHAL: Arise and warn!
SHAKIR: Arise and warn,

*074.003 *
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord do thou magnify!
PICKTHAL: Thy Lord magnify,
SHAKIR: And your Lord do magnify,

*074.004 *
YUSUFALI: And thy garments keep free from stain!
PICKTHAL: Thy raiment purify,
SHAKIR: And your garments do purify,

*074.005 *
YUSUFALI: And all abomination shun!
PICKTHAL: Pollution shun!
SHAKIR: And uncleanness do shun,
 
BelFarfalla said:
This is a good online source for Islamic scripture and Sunna. I found the same thing as pinkylee.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html

*074.001 *
YUSUFALI: O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
PICKTHAL: O thou enveloped in thy cloak,
SHAKIR: O you who are clothed!

*074.002 *
YUSUFALI: Arise and deliver thy warning!
PICKTHAL: Arise and warn!
SHAKIR: Arise and warn,

*074.003 *
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord do thou magnify!
PICKTHAL: Thy Lord magnify,
SHAKIR: And your Lord do magnify,

*074.004 *
YUSUFALI: And thy garments keep free from stain!
PICKTHAL: Thy raiment purify,
SHAKIR: And your garments do purify,

*074.005 *
YUSUFALI: And all abomination shun!
PICKTHAL: Pollution shun!
SHAKIR: And uncleanness do shun,
Click to expand...
I think the link that I gave from CARM tying this passage to Muhammed’s thoughts of suicide, is referring to the fact there are accounts of Mohammed’s first encounter with the spirit in the cave saying he was so terrified that he wanted to run off the cliff to escape it.

“Following his initial visitation by a spirit, that claimed to be Gabriel, Muhammad was frantic with fear and attempted suicide. He walked up to the top of a mountain and intended to throw himself off a cliff.”

answering-islam.de/Main/Silas/suicide.htm
 
Eden said:
I think the link that I gave from CARM tying this passage to Muhammed’s thoughts of suicide, is referring to the fact there are accounts of Mohammed’s first encounter with the spirit in the cave saying he was so terrified that he wanted to run off the cliff to escape it.

“Following his initial visitation by a spirit, that claimed to be Gabriel, Muhammad was frantic with fear and attempted suicide. He walked up to the top of a mountain and intended to throw himself off a cliff.”

answering-islam.de/Main/Silas/suicide.htm
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The following is from one of your earlier posts on this thread. You mistakenly said that the quote was from the Qur’an.
Eden said:
When Muhammad heard from God (through an angel) he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
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The above is not from the Qur’an. Its from a hadith.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/001.sbt.html#001.001.003
*Sahih Bukhari, Book 1: Volume 1, Number 3: *

Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, “I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones.” Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira’ sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, ‘Wrap me (in blankets).’ And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): ‘O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!’ Arise and warn (the people against Allah’s Punishment),… up to ‘and desert the idols.’ (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly.”
 
I didn’t make my last post clear. The Quran passage Quran 74:1-5 was accurately quoted by you. It is referring events related to the First Revelation in the cave. The reason, I believe, that the CARM website tied this passage in with Muhammed’s suicide attempts, is because the suicidal thoughts were the larger story to this first revelation. If you go back to my inital list of the differences between Mohammed and Jesus, you will see the link to CARM. Click on the link and you will see this is their list. I am only speculating as to the tie-in to suicide with this passage.

Here is a link from my original post that we are discussing again, which ties Quran 74:1-5 to suicide:

carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm
 
Eden said:
I didn’t make my last post clear. The Quran passage Quran 74:1-5 was accurately quoted by you. It is referring events related to the First Revelation in the cave. The reason, I believe, that the CARM website tied this passage in with Muhammed’s suicide attempts, is because the suicidal thoughts were the larger story to this first revelation. If you go back to my inital list of the differences between Mohammed and Jesus, you will see the link to CARM. Click on the link and you will see this is their list. I am only speculating as to the tie-in to suicide with this passage.

Here is a link from my original post that we are discussing again, which ties Quran 74:1-5 to suicide:

carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm
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Your are right. If you look in the Hadith it actually points to 74:1-5. I was just trying to make your point as clear as possible because some of our posters were confused when the Qur’anic passage did not match the words.
 
BelFarfalla said:
Your are right. If you look in the Hadith it actually points to 74:1-5. I was just trying to make your point as clear as possible because some of our posters were confused when the Qur’anic passage did not match the words.
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Oh, O.K., thanks! 👍
 
I disagree with Islam and Muhammad wholeheartedly.

I DO NOT believe that every Moslem is/was a psychopathic killer.

Unfortunatly, every Moslem follows a religion that, after examination by a peaceful mind, seems to make no sense (at least to me).

BUT I don’t think saying things like “Muhammad was an illiterate killer” is helpful. Whether or not it is true, please back it up with facts and such. For those of you that have done so, it is the best you can do when someone isn’t willing to listen. Being a jerk about it, however, drives Moslems AWAY from the truth of Christianity.

-Joseph
 
Eden said:
The real Jesus, Son of God, is not in Islam.

Here is a comparison between the two:

carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

For instance:

Jesus died and rose from the dead
Muhammad died and stayed dead

Jesus never fought
Muhammad fought many many times

When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness, (Mark 1:14-15)
When Muhammad heard from God (through an angel) he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)

Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:24; 8:58) as well as a man. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
Muhammad claimed to be a man

Received instructions from God the Father (John 5:19)
Muhammed, from an angel

Jesus never killed anyone
Muhammad killed many

Jesus had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it
Muhammad had the power to take it, but he never restored it

No one ever died in Jesus’ presence
Many people died in Muhammad’s presence – he killed them

Jesus never married
Muhammad had over 20 wives and even married a nine year old girl

Jesus received his calling from God directly (Matt. 3:17)
Muhammad received it from an angel (Gabriel)

Jesus received his commission in the daylight
Muhammad received his words in the darkness of a cave
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Muhammed------ now theres a fine example to follow? NOT!
 
Catholic4Christ said:
BUT I don’t think saying things like “Muhammad was an illiterate killer” is helpful. Whether or not it is true, please back it up with facts and such. For those of you that have done so, it is the best you can do when someone isn’t willing to listen. Being a jerk about it, however, drives Moslems AWAY from the truth of Christianity.

-Joseph
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Joseph needs to watch tv, read books and browse some good sites on the net…
 
Ilocia said:
Joseph needs to watch tv, read books and browse some good sites on the net…
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Trust me I have… I could go on and on…

but for me the most that has to be said is his 6 year old wife… waited to have sex with her… until she was 9? I don’t need to hear anything else, someone who does that to a little girl shouldn’t be founding a “religion of peace” as the media today calls it.
 
The play on words for Islam and Muslim is a tricky shocker

Islam actually means “To Submit”

Muslim meant “He who has submitted”

the “Peace” comes from (as there is no vowels in the written language,) is another different root word which looks similar.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Muhammad was a man who loved GodAllahYHWH, and the fellow human beings, he was peace loving person and GodAllahYHWH loved him most.
Jesus also loved God and the fellow human beings, he was a peaceful man and God loved him.
Both have similarities with one another.
Thanks
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The being Muhammed called ‘god’ was not God.

If I say “I love football” and you say “I love football” a person migh assume we both love the same thing.

However you may be talking of Association Football (aka Soccer) and I might be referring to Rugby League (go the Eels!). One would need to understand what both mean when using the same word.

Only a superficial comparison can say that Muhammed and Jesus were similiar.

Muhammed lead his forces into war. He congratulated those who lied and murdered. He had sexual relations with a child (Aisha).

An example…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
 
Catholic4Christ said:
BUT I don’t think saying things like “Muhammad was an illiterate killer” is helpful. Whether or not it is true, please back it up with facts and such. For those of you that have done so, it is the best you can do when someone isn’t willing to listen. Being a jerk about it, however, drives Moslems AWAY from the truth of Christianity.

-Joseph
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Unfortunatley Moslems already are taught that Christians are liars.
 
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