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Mtatum1958
Guest
Honest, open, sincere communication is the strongest aphrodisiac.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
Apparently not enough to try to work on their marriage.
But then again, sometimes baggage and issues and resentments build up and kill libido.
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tafan2
Guest
Strawman argument. As one of the few people willing to defend the Church’s teaching on the marraiage debt around here, I can tell you it is never made one-sided .
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tafan2
Guest
Of course. But really a strange way to look at it. like most moral teaching, the usefulness of it to each of us is not so we can apply it to anyone else’s behavior, but so we can apply it to our own behavior.
The question is for each of us is: do I ever refuse my spouse without a reasonable cause?
Something about that beam in our own eye…
The question is for each of us is: do I ever refuse my spouse without a reasonable cause?
Something about that beam in our own eye…
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Peeps
Guest
With respect to the Scriptures and the traditional Catholic teachings…
…in 2019, I think the word “debt” has an extremely negative connotation for many people, especially those who have incurred tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt that seems like it will never be paid off (hence the push from politicians for “debt forgiveness” which would put the lenders up a creek, wouldn’t it?!).
Also, those who are underwater on their homes, those who have massive health care debt and inadequate or no health insurance, and those who have racked up much more credit card debt (either through paying necessary bills like repairs, or through an addiction to shopping) tend to see the word “DEBT” as a frightening, burdensome, crippling, deathly word.
I would respectfully suggest that Catholics find another word.
…in 2019, I think the word “debt” has an extremely negative connotation for many people, especially those who have incurred tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt that seems like it will never be paid off (hence the push from politicians for “debt forgiveness” which would put the lenders up a creek, wouldn’t it?!).
Also, those who are underwater on their homes, those who have massive health care debt and inadequate or no health insurance, and those who have racked up much more credit card debt (either through paying necessary bills like repairs, or through an addiction to shopping) tend to see the word “DEBT” as a frightening, burdensome, crippling, deathly word.
I would respectfully suggest that Catholics find another word.
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Vico
Guest
“This teaching has to do with the obligation that spouses have to acquiesce to the marital act when it is reasonably requested by the other spouse.”
In practice, due charity, on the part of the one with the greater desire is important. Free will allows for the expression of charity.
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Lea101
Guest
The main question some may probably have is: why isn’t ‘not feeling like it’ seen as a reasonable cause?
(not to start anything, I feel like we always have this conversation lol)
(not to start anything, I feel like we always have this conversation lol)
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is an extremely good point. Also, sex shouldn’t be something that you’re just doing because you owe it to somebody else. Frankly, that to me sounds a lot like prostitution or slavery.
It may have made more sense back in the era, centuries ago, when the woman was completely dependent on the man for her livelihood and there was a tendency to regard sex as an unpleasant business for the woman and she had to just “lie back and think of England” so the man could relieve his urges. We don’t think like that now.
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tafan2
Guest
Way too vague of a question to answer. The question is, why doesn’t one feel like it? Do I just want to watch Monday night football, or am I too exhausted from a long day?
To others on this thread:
The marriage debt does not mean I can demand sex any time I fell like it. The marraige debt means that I cannot reject my spouse without having a good reason. Why present a Church teaching inaccurately?
To others on this thread:
The marriage debt does not mean I can demand sex any time I fell like it. The marraige debt means that I cannot reject my spouse without having a good reason. Why present a Church teaching inaccurately?
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niceatheist
Guest
What, you’re wife isn’t wooed by “I know you don’t want to right now, but just lay back and think of England…”?
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Lea101
Guest
IDK, there can be many reasons. Maybe the spouse is feeling too relaxed to move (lol), maybe he/she is too distracted by work or something else, maybe he/she is feeling pretty unsexy after a mean comment or a big meal, maybe the spouse is annoyed at the other spouse and doesn’t feel close to them at that moment. And so on…
Basically when you don’t feel like it, it’s not always easy to get into the head space for sex. Which then leads to the next big thing. Are they to fake enthusiasm, or lie there? Surely both options are terrible.
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Peeps
Guest
So the “marriage debt means that I CAN reject my spouse if I have a good reason.”
Does this mean that I can reject paying my financial debts if I have a good reason?
You see, the word “debt” has awful meaning for 21st century folk and automatically causes a “recoil”, and I think that the Catholic Church, at least in the U.S., should seriously examine eliminating this phrase (“marriage debt”) and find another phrase that would invoke a positive response.
Think about it–Dave Ramsay makes a fortune denoucning “DEBT!” (“Debt” is the antithesis of all that is evil, or at least, he makes it sound so). So automatically, many Christians who have grown up with Dave Ramsay think “EVIL!!! Must flee!” when they hear the word “debt” even if it connected to the word “marriage.”
For that matter, nowadays, over half of adults consider the word “marriage” something to be avoided.
Oh,well–can’t win.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Huh?
There’s plenty of “annulment process” for people in the Catholic Church. You don’t need to leave the Church and go live in sin in order to get an annulment.
Please discuss this with a priest and stop posting misinformation on the forum, especially since you are off topic for the thread.
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lonegreywolf20
Guest
I think they mean an annulment process in order to leave the church itself. This way you are no longer Catholic and are subject to the church’s rules and way of doing things and considered to be in sin because you are still held to the same rules and way of doing things.
It’s an interesting idea and one that I would be interested in as well.
It’s an interesting idea and one that I would be interested in as well.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are a member of the Church through being baptized and confirmed. Once those things have happened, there is no way to un-baptize or un-confirm you.
Annulment is a declaration that there was a defect in a marriage, so the sacrament did not take place. I don’t see how someone is going to argue that there was a defect in either their baptism or their confirmation. I suppose if the confirmation wasn’t performed by the proper authority or the person was dragged kicking and screaming to the ceremony, it might be invalid. As for baptism, that’s tougher because any Catholic can baptize. If the wrong formula was used it could be invalid. Some Protestants already regard infant baptism as invalid because the infant was not in a position to agree with the baptism, so those who wish to “annul” on those grounds simply go join one of those Protestant churches.
Furthermore, annulment in the Church has a practical purpose of allowing a person to marry again in the church. There is zero practical purpose to annuling baptism or confirmation.
In short, if the person’s request is what you say, it’s a rambling incoherent thought that doesn’t make sense. When people want to leave the Church because they reject its teaching or whatever, they just walk out the door and they usually don’t feel bound by a Church that they no longer believe in. Nor do they have further obligations to the Church when they walk out - it’s not like the bishop sends a lawyer to their house saying, “Hey, you owe us X amount of dues for your church membership through such and such date, pay up or we will sue you.”
“Annulment from the church” sounds like somebody who feels guilty because he wants to leave the Church but just can’t bring himself to separate. Why would the Church want to help that process along, since it teaches that separating yourself from the Church is a bad thing to do and might send you to Hell?
Absolutely crazy nonsensical idea.
Annulment is a declaration that there was a defect in a marriage, so the sacrament did not take place. I don’t see how someone is going to argue that there was a defect in either their baptism or their confirmation. I suppose if the confirmation wasn’t performed by the proper authority or the person was dragged kicking and screaming to the ceremony, it might be invalid. As for baptism, that’s tougher because any Catholic can baptize. If the wrong formula was used it could be invalid. Some Protestants already regard infant baptism as invalid because the infant was not in a position to agree with the baptism, so those who wish to “annul” on those grounds simply go join one of those Protestant churches.
Furthermore, annulment in the Church has a practical purpose of allowing a person to marry again in the church. There is zero practical purpose to annuling baptism or confirmation.
In short, if the person’s request is what you say, it’s a rambling incoherent thought that doesn’t make sense. When people want to leave the Church because they reject its teaching or whatever, they just walk out the door and they usually don’t feel bound by a Church that they no longer believe in. Nor do they have further obligations to the Church when they walk out - it’s not like the bishop sends a lawyer to their house saying, “Hey, you owe us X amount of dues for your church membership through such and such date, pay up or we will sue you.”
“Annulment from the church” sounds like somebody who feels guilty because he wants to leave the Church but just can’t bring himself to separate. Why would the Church want to help that process along, since it teaches that separating yourself from the Church is a bad thing to do and might send you to Hell?
Absolutely crazy nonsensical idea.
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niceatheist
Guest
I agree. Frankly, having your spouse “go through the motions” just to please you is deeply dissatisfying. I’d rather be a bit sexually frustrated than have my partner just fake it so I could gain some pleasure. That makes it a mechanical act, not a loving one.tafan2:
IDK, there can be many reasons. Maybe the spouse is feeling too relaxed to move (lol), maybe he/she is too distracted by work or something else, maybe he/she is feeling pretty unsexy after a mean comment or a big meal, maybe the spouse is annoyed at the other spouse and doesn’t feel close to them at that moment. And so on…
Basically when you don’t feel like it, it’s not always easy to get into the head space for sex. Which then leads to the next big thing. Are they to fake enthusiasm, or lie there? Surely both options are terrible.
If it is a prolonged issue, well then there are other things obviously going on, either physical issues or psychological ones, and in either case professional help should be sought.
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twf
Guest
This is a good point. It’s considered sinful to refuse sex without just cause, but it’s also sinful for a man not to physically complete the act. What if, due to him not being “in the mood” (distracted, stressed, etc) he can’t physically complete? Lose lose.
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DisorientingSneeze
Guest
The word debt seems to reduce something so inexpressably beautiful and important to something quite transactional. If this teaching has fallen out of favor, it is not in favor of sexless marriages, but in favor of language that better supports the entire relationship of a married couple. Marriage prep and marriage enrichment courses do stress the importance of sexual intimacy between spouses, but the language has improved to become a language of love.
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DisorientingSneeze
Guest
From the article:
Couples who are not using NFP (because you are allowed to just not keep track and enjoy your life open to life) might not have the same conversations about how long it has been built into their lives. Plus talking about how long it has been can take on uncomfortable accusatory vibes.
I think too that the increased understanding of NFP could be why the language of marital debt has fallen into disfavor. Couples practicing it are in regular communication about how often and when.
Couples who are not using NFP (because you are allowed to just not keep track and enjoy your life open to life) might not have the same conversations about how long it has been built into their lives. Plus talking about how long it has been can take on uncomfortable accusatory vibes.
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F_Marturana
Guest
For many years we struggled with marital debt. Especially after we bought a house and needed a mortgage. 
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