The Mark of the Beast

[JesuisSean]

You are right that I cannot speak for you, because you speak with the voice of faith. But I can speak for Jesus, who was a Jew and not a Catholic. We both speak with the voice of Reason.

WAS is past tense. So did he become a Catholic in the long run ?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5445099:

I understand, Ben. you thought you bought a really good reference book of the Christian interpretations of the Gospel too, didn’t you? Maybe you can get a refund…

You are mistaken. My reference book for the Christian interpretation of the gospels is the NT itself. I just read it and I immediately see how the books contradict themselves.

 

[Ben_Masada]

twb1621;5450589:

To those who are born again, the Word of God is revealed to them through the Holy Spirit of God. To those who are not born again, God remains a mystery.

For a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

Don’t be to hard on Ben, for I doubt he believes that Jesus Christ is the messiah. Do you Ben?

No, I don’t. Why? Because if I did, I would be going against the Prophet Isaiah, who identifies the Messiah by name as being Israel, so that we don’t have to assume that he could be Jesus. Are you asking me to go against the Prophets?

 

[Ben_Masada]

In my mind for the Jews to reject Jesus they must reject their Tanakh, toda raba. They must discount their Torah. And hold to the anti-Jesus rabbi -im who created many midrashic teachings contrary to the historical standard. Or the literal interpretation of their own books. They miss out on the very God who seperated them out from the peoples from Abraham to Moses. They miss out on this same Jesus who sat enthroned on Mt. Sinai with saphire at his feet while the 70 leaders of the tribe of Israel ate in his pressence.
Its a shame.

If that doesn’t get Ben talking; I don’t know what will.

We cannot interpret the Tanach literally or we will be comparing God with man. Anthropomorphy is idolatry. God is incorporeal. He has no body.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, showing by your words you seem to be verry insacure about yourself. Jesus was Jewish yes and practiced judaism which is some from God and some from man. The old testament is only a semble of the worlds need of Christ. It and the religion was a prophesy for the covenant of Jesus the Christ. For example:

The Old Testament

God Raises His Covenant Children
Jesus introduced the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. It did not exist during the days of the Old Testament. However, our Father in heaven gradually prepared us to receive it. These Old Testament accounts describe pre-figurations of the Holy Eucharist.

Abel
The earliest shadow of the Sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood was Abel, the younger son of Adam and Eve. Cain murdered the good shepherd Abel. The Lord told Cain, Gn 4:10 “The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground.” The Book of Hebrews reminds us of, Heb 12:24 “… [Christ’s] sprinkled Blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.”

Melchizedek
Melchizedek pre-figured Christ. When Abram returned from his victory over Chedorlaomer, Gn 14:18 “Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High …” to bless Abram, pre-figuring the bread and wine consecrated by a priest at Mass. The Book of Hebrews tells us, Heb 7:2 “[Melchizedek] is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem [shalom], that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.”

Moses
Moses, the first Israelite priest, read the Torah to all of the six hundred thousand Israelite people assembled at the foot of Mt. Sinai, and threw the blood of sacrificed oxen on the people, saying Ex 24:8 “Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you.” Jesus said at the Last Supper, Mt 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant.”
Ex 34:29 “When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain … the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God … he put a veil on his face.” Jesus comes to us veiled, under the appearance of bread and wine. We could not stand the superbrilliant light of His full glory compared to our own souls darkened by sin.

The Harvest
In ancient Israel, the Spring harvest consisted of grain or wheat. Bread has long been the symbol of the Spring harvest. The Autumn harvest was mostly grapes and olives. Grape wine and olive oil were symbols of the Autumn harvest. Bread and wine. God commanded, Lv 23:12-13 “You shall offer a male lamb a year old without blemish as a burnt offering to the Lord. And the cereal offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil … and the drink offering with it shall be of wine.” Priests anoint with oil. Torah unites bread and wine, and the priest, with the sacrifice of the lamb.

Tabernacle Sacrifice
Bread of the Presence
The Bread of the Presence, in the ancient Tabernacle and later in the Temple, 1 Kgs 7:48 prefigured Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
In the Tabernacle God commanded Moses, Ex 25:8 “Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.” In the sanctuary, in the ark of the covenant, God told Moses, Ex 25:22 “There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you…” God added, Ex 25:30 “You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always.” Jesus told us, Mt 28:20 “I am with you always.”
Abimelech the priest gave David this sacred bread. 1 Sam 21:6 “So the priest gave him the holy bread; for there was no bread there but the bread of the Presence.” Jesus taught us that it was for all His disciples. Mt 12:1 “At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears of grain and to eat. … [Jesus] said to them, 'Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence … I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.”
Jesus showed us what was greater than the Temple. Lk 22:19 “He took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’”

Next time write in smaller portions. I cannot comment on everything because of space capacity according to Forum rules.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, here is some more

Blood of the Lamb
During Moses’ time the priests sacrificed in the Tabernacle, a portable house of God in the wilderness. After Solomon built the First Temple, it became the place of sacrifice. The highest form of Hebrew worship was sacrifice, not prayer alone, just as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of Catholic worship. A priest is one who offers sacrifice. The Catholic priest is the counterpart not of the rabbi, but of the ancient Jewish priest who offered bloody sacrifices. The deacon, who reads the Gospel, is the rabbi’s counterpart.
The Old Testament sacrifice of a lamb, as opposed to any other animal, was important. The lamb did not resist, run away, or even cry out. Isaiah had foretold that the Lamb of God would do the same, Is 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.”
The Jewish priests, before sacrificing the lamb, always asked, “Do you love this lamb?” If the family didn’t love the lamb there would be no sacrifice. Jesus three times asked Peter, Jn 21:15 “Do you love Me?” Jesus allowed Peter to replace his triple denial with a triple affirmation that he did indeed love the Sacrificed Lamb.
The family would place the lamb into the hands of the priest. When we give something to God we place it in His hands. Jesus’ last words on the Cross were, Lk 23:46 “Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit!”
The priest and the head of the family then prayed together that God would accept the blood of the innocent lamb for the sins of that family for the entire year, just as the Lamb of God shed His Blood to redeem the sins of all His human family. The Catholic priest says, “Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.”
The head of household then cut the lamb’s throat with a sharp bronze knife while the priest caught the lamb’s blood in a large bronze bowl. The priest then made seven complete trips around the altar, sprinkling the blood from the lamb on each of the four “horns.” Then he took the lamb’s body and placed it on the altar and started the ritual fire. With a big fire and a small lamb, the sacrifice was over quickly. The smoke rose from the altar. If the wind blew the smoke away and dispersed it, the priest told the family that its offer was rejected, and that it should repent and come back the following year. But if the smoke drifted upward, higher and higher until it disappeared from view, the priest told the family that God had accepted the sacrifice.
Before the great tabernacle sacrifice, Jewish priests washed their hands in a bronze laver, or basin. Ps 26:6 “I wash my hands in innocence, and go about Thy altar, O Lord.” Today the Catholic priest washes his hands saying inaudibly, Ps 51:2 “Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin.”
The first priest attended at a great golden lampstand with seven oil lamps, called a menorah. It was dark in the tabernacle, and the menorah gave light.
The second priest attended at the table of showbread. God had commanded Lv 24:5 that the Jewish priests, from Aaron forward, place twelve loaves of bread on a golden table “before the Lord.” On each sabbath, the priests ate the bread which had been set in place on the preceding sabbath. This bread was to be eaten by the priests in a sacred place since it was Lv 24:9 “most holy” among the offerings to the Lord. God had said, Ex 23:18 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread.” During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the Catholic priest consecrates unleavened bread on the altar which becomes Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and is consumed by the royal priesthood as the most holy offering in the New and Everlasting Covenant.
The third priest served at the altar of incense. It looked like a small altar of sacrifice, with the same four horns. On it was a bronze laver. The priest would take a red-hot burning ember from the fire in which the lamb had been sacrificed, put it in the basin, and pour some incense on it, that his prayers might have a fragrant scent and go straight up to God. On solemn occasions Catholics spread incense about the altar as an act of reverence and purification. The smoke rising to heaven represents our own desire to have our prayers ascend heavenward in God’s sight. Ps 141:2 “Let my prayer be counted as incense before Thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice.”
God told Moses to place the Torah in the Ark of the Covenant, which in turn was placed within a tabernacle. God commanded, Ex 27:20 “You shall command the people of Israel that they bring to you pure beaten olive oil for the light, that a lamp may be set up to burn continually.” All was placed within the tabernacle. By night, there was always a fire over the tabernacle, Ex 40:38 This began the idea of an eternal lamp beside the Jewish tabernacle. A thousand years later the Temple lamp miraculously continued to shine for eight days with only one day’s supply of oil. Catholics continue this ancient Israelite tradition by placing a lighted candle beside the tabernacle in which the consecrated Hosts repose.

What’s the purpose of all the above, to immitate or to replace Israel?
To immitate is plagiarism. To replace is Replacement Theology. Take your pick.

 

[Ben_Masada]

The rest of the last post for you Ben, i also have allot more of you would like!

In the center of the tabernacle was a room called the Holy of Holies. Once a year the cohen gadol, the high priest, alone would enter that room. In it was the Ark of the Covenant. Inside the ark were the two stone tablets with the Ten Commandments, a golden bowl of manna, and the five Torah scrolls. The Torah was a witness against the Israelites, Dt 31:26 but above it all was God’s solid gold mercy seat, with a crown and two cherubim kneeling in prayer. Above the mercy seat, between the two cherubim, was a brilliant light, the shining glory of God. Ex 25:22 “From above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you.” When the priest saw that light he took a huge cup of blood and sprinkled it until it was empty. Jewish tradition holds that not one drop of the blood of sacrifice ever touched the mercy seat or the cherubim; it all went into the bright light of God’s glory. Jesus said, Jn 8:12 “I am the light of the world.” Jesus’ covenant family gave Him their imperfect sacrifices, and He gave them His perfect sacrifice.

How about the sacrifice of the other thousands of Jews who were crucified just like Jesus, no more no less? Their sacrifice does not count? I think you have never read Josephus to speak about the sacrifice of Jesus as if he was the only Jew crucified by the Romans.

 

[Ben_Masada]

WAS is past tense. So did he become a Catholic in the long run ?

No, he died. When one is dead, he can no longer be whatever he was. Nice try but you can’t keep up with a Jewish mind.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

No, he died. When one is dead, he can no longer be whatever he was. Nice try but you can’t keep up with a Jewish mind.

No, YOUR mind Ben not everyone else’s. And who are you you to say that the Lord cannot raise from the dead? If He is not risen then our faith is in vain. Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the one who comes as written by the Prophets. YOUR Messiah. Sigh… you will find out one day.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,
It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger”, on his own, with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus himself as an apostle.

Who said that Paul was commissioned by Jesus as an apostle, himself? That’s what he told the Apostles when he came up to Jerusalem to try to join the Sect of the Nazarenes and was not believed. Do you know why? Because they thought he was either lying or crazy. The Apostles knew that Jesus had not gone to Damascus. I can’t say where he had gone because the Apostles never revealed Jesus’ request not to tell anybody where he was going to.

In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6). He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Gal. 1:18)

**You are being a little dishonest in the hope that I don’t have the time to check the quotation you put down. Galatians 1:18 has nothing to do with going to Peter in order to be confirmed in his alleged calling. **

and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Gal 2:1-2,9).

After 14 years of robbing the Nazarenes of their synagogues throughout Asia Minor, he did come up to Jerusalem, and what he says about being granted to go to the Gentiles is debatable and contradicted by two facts: First that Peter declared that he was the one chosen to take the gospel to the Gentiles. (Acts 15:7) Paul happened to be there and said nothing in protest. The other fact is that Paul NEVER went to the Gentiles. Since his first station in Damascus until his last one in Rome, he never left the Jews in peace.

He was also sent out by the church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4),

This is a big and ugly interpolation which lacks all truth. Read verse 2. He alleges that the Holy Spirit had set him apart to do the work for which he had been called. What work was that, to bring the gospel to the Gentiles? Now, read verse 3. After the fast they imposed hands on him and sent them off. Very good, where did he go? Read verse 5. He went to the synagogues of Salamis. Since when were Gentiles to be found in synagogues? See what I mean? Everything was wrong about this man.

which was in contact with the church at Jerusalem Acts 11:19-27). Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch.

**Paul did not report back to Antioch. Read again this text Acts 11:19-26. Barnabas was the one to be assigned from Jerusalem to go and take the leadership of the Nazarene Cause in Antioch. But because he was an old friend of Paul’s, he went to look for him in Tarsus and invited him to work together. And Barnabas did this without authorization from Jerusalem. Paul, of course, accepted the invitation and at the end of one whole year, he had overturned the Nazarene synagogue of Antioch into a Christian church, because he was preaching about Jesus as Christ. That’s where and then, that the disciples started being called Christians for the first time. Christianity had been born. **

No denying this.

Everything has been denied with the proper evidences.

 

[ryanoneil]

**Well, let us hypothetically accept your line of thinking. When was Jesus ever King of the Jews, if Pilates’ joke was based in truth? **

John the Baptist was a Levite and a prophet, and his baptizing Jesus was the anointing of the king of the house of David (1 Samuel 16:13)

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?” Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him. After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Mt 3:13-17)

This happened by the extraordinary promise made by God:

“I will be a Father to him and he shall be a son to Me” (2 Samuel 7:14)

“I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth’ “(Psalm 2:7)

 

[twb1621]

You are mistaken. My reference book for the Christian interpretation of the gospels is the NT itself. I just read it and I immediately see how the books contradict themselves.

Ben, 'lil buddy… you need to start from square one,…… Your trying to make lead float… Talk to some of your own Jewish heritage who Learned Jesus truely is the Messiah. Maybe they can teach you the Gospel in a way you can understand. Because truthfully, the statement you made here proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[twb1621]

No, I don’t. Why? Because if I did, I would be going against the Prophet Isaiah, who identifies the Messiah by name as being Israel, so that we don’t have to assume that he could be Jesus. Are you asking me to go against the Prophets?

you already are Ben

 

[heiscominginthe]

heiscominginthe;5452118:

No, I don’t. Why? Because if I did, I would be going against the Prophet Isaiah, who identifies the Messiah by name as being Israel, so that we don’t have to assume that he could be Jesus. Are you asking me to go against the Prophets?

There is coming a day when you will know beyond all doubt that Israel put to death their messiah. For when he returns the second time, he will be coming in all his glory.

Do you know how offerings were offered up unto God for the forgiveness of sins?

Christ was offered up for all of mankind, bringing salvation not just to the Jew, but to the world.

 

[adrift]

Please do not say that we BOTH know that Jesus was never a King because He was a King and His Kingdom will reign forever. Please speak only for yourself.

Mark 15
Pilate again said to them in reply, “Then what (do you want) me to do with (the man you call) the king of the Jews?”
Luke 23
Pilate questioned him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” He said to him in reply, “You say so.”
John 18
Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.

Jesus said He is a King He is our King.

 

[adrift]

OneTrueCathApos;5451582:

Ben,

In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6). He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Gal. 1:18)

**You are being a little dishonest in the hope that I don’t have the time to check the quotation you put down. Galatians 1:18 has nothing to do with going to Peter in order to be confirmed in his alleged calling. **

Here is the scripture

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days.
19
But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. 16

Now you may say that he is interpreting this meeting with Cephas/Peter as being a confirmation when it is not but he met with Peter for 15 days it is reasonable that he was discussing his calling.

and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Gal 2:1-2,9).

After 14 years of robbing the Nazarenes of their synagogues throughout Asia Minor, he did come up to Jerusalem, and what he says about being granted to go to the Gentiles is debatable and contradicted by two facts: First that Peter declared that he was the one chosen to take the gospel to the Gentiles. (Acts 15:7) Paul happened to be there and said nothing in protest. The other fact is that Paul NEVER went to the Gentiles. Since his first station in Damascus until his last one in Rome, he never left the Jews in peace.

.

Because Peter took the Gospel to the Gentiles does not exclude Paul from doing it also. Paul may not have protested why should he. It wasn’t a contest but it does say

The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them

To use your reasoning Peter didn’t protest that Paul worked among the Gentiles so he must have approved.

 

[Ben_Masada]

**And since it comes from a Jew the condmnation is not in order because the world is aware of what we have done for Mankind. Only a few refuse to acknowledge reality. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

John the Baptist was a Levite and a prophet, and his baptizing Jesus was the anointing of the king of the house of David (1 Samuel 16:13)

**Please Ryanoneil, you can do much better than that! John the Baptist would immerse crowds of Jews in the Jordan everyday. That’s what he chose to do for an occupation. You speak of his doing it to Jesus as if Jesus had been the only Jew he ever immersed in waters. And next time you mention this, please use the word “immersion”. Jews don’t baptize. **

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?” Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him. After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Mt 3:13-17)

I see the hand of Paul in this pot. Otherwise, definitely the Church is behind this one. That’s a classical NT interpolation.

This happened by the extraordinary promise made by God:
“I will be a Father to him and he shall be a son to Me” (2 Samuel 7:14)

**Now, you are assuming that II Samuel 7:14 is talking about Jesus. No wonder the whole NT is a gigantic treatise of plagiarism. **

“I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth’ “(Psalm 2:7)

Now, take advantage of the tramp and stop by Exodus 4:22,23 and see if the language is not the same about the real son of God. "Israel is My Son…"

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, 'lil buddy… you need to start from square one,…… Your trying to make lead float… Talk to some of your own Jewish heritage who Learned Jesus truely is the Messiah. Maybe they can teach you the Gospel in a way you can understand. Because truthfully, the statement you made here proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

**Well my friend, to make lead float is not impossible for a Jew. Elisha did it to restore the ax his disciple had lost in the water. If you didn’t know, Elisha was Jewish.

And to know about Jesus as Messiah, you are mistaken, because there is no one in my Jewish heritage who believes Jesus was the Messiah. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

you already are Ben

That’s because you have no idea what you are talking about.