The Mark of the Beast

[Ben_Masada]

The body of juridical, moral, and ceremonial institutions, laws and decisions comprised in the last four books of the Pentateuch, and ascribed by Christian and Hebrew tradition to Moses.
The Torah, as a whole, was neither miraculously communicated from heaven, nor was it laboriously thought out and put together by Moses independently of external influences. It is sometimes hazardously asserted that it antedated Moses by a thousand years or more, since much that is in the Torah is found also in the Code of Hammurabi. Indeed, certain decrees in the Babylonian code are more excellent than their Mosaic parallels; in more important ones, however, the Torah takes precedence. It was the primitive condition of Hebrew society that dictated Israel’s first laws by leading to the establishment of family and tribal customs.

**Nevertheless, Jesus used to refer to the Torah as God’s Word. A thing which you cannot say the same about your NT, which came to existence 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, you keep asserting that Paul, and not Jesus, founded the Church, constantly referring to the book of Acts (which, the very fact that you refer to it indicates that you seem to give it some weight of authority)…while ignoring Jesus’ own words in Matthew 16, “…and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH…”

Someone said earlier that you seem to be picking and choosing Christian Scripture, much like protestants do. I couldn’t agree more.

**Genesius, I have never made a secret of the fact that I do accept 20 percent of the NT as true of coming from and about Jesus. The other 80 percent are the result of interpolations, by either the gospel writers or the Church. I mean, if Jesus is to be taken as a religious Jew, anything about him which is not Jewish, is therefore, not true. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Paul officially persecuted the Faithful of Christ until he himself was miraculously struck down by Jesus (note: after the Passion, Death and Resurrection and after His Ascension to Heaven) and subsequently converted to Christ dedicating himself to His ministry. He never knew Christ in the personal sense as did the original Apostles so His teachings were more theological and less related to specific events during the life of Christ.

“modern theologians now agree that St. Paul’s doctrine is Christocentric, that it is at base a soteriology, not from a subjective standpoint, according to the ancient prejudice of the founders of Protestantism who made justification by faith the quintessence of Paulinism, but from the objective standpoint, embracing in a wide synthesis the person and work of the Redeemer. This may be proved empirically by the statement that everything in St. Paul converges towards Jesus Christ, so much so, that abstracting from Jesus Christ it becomes, whether taken collectively or in detail, absolutely incomprehensible. This is proved also by demonstrating that what Paul calls his Gospel is the salvation of all men through Christ and in Christ.”

Refer to; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm

You may also find the following site informative as well;
pauliscatholic.com/

**Wow! I wonder why Jesus’ Apostles did not swallow his story about the Road to Damascus, when he showed up in Jerusalem trying to join the Sect of the Nazarenes. He was rather expelled after 15 days back to Tarsus where he belonged. (Acts 9:28-31) **

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob…I too am a convert from Protestantism. In fact, although I explored several different denominations, the greatest influence on me in my formidable years were the Fundamentalists. I am somewhat familiar with the whole dispensationalist view of eschatology, but, having grown in my knowledge as a Catholic I wholeheartedly reject this erroneous view, and do embrace a more pretorist view. I would recommend to you my Catholic apologist friend’s (Carl E. Olson) book entitled, “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?”. It is a very scholarly critique of the whole dispensationalist worldview, including it’s very brief history.

On a sidenote, it is very interesting how dispensationalists go crazy about the “Mark of the Beast” while ignoring “The Mark of God” mentioned in the same passage. I am a Bible College graduate and I can tell you that the book of Revelation was written in much the same style as ancient Hebrew literature with a lot of metaphorical language and reference to Hebrew numerology (values given to numbers not just mathematical, but spiritual in nature as well, thus the “Mark of the Beast” being 666 is simply a number meaning “the beast” or those who follow the beast). In the same passage in Revelation, although it is not given a numerical value, the mark of God refers to those who follow God as opposed to the beast. It was never intended to be interpreted as a literal number embossed on people or credit cards, etc.

I don’t take much note of “666” since my explanation is that to the Jews seven was the perfect number. Six falls one short of seven, so if 777 represents perfection in body, mind and spirit, then 666 simply implies the anti-Christ will simply be an imperfect man like the rest of us. Nor do I take any notice of the Rapture, which is unbiblical.

However the fact remains that the conditions for this sort of intrusive technology exist today. Mary has been turning up and warning us, and to my mind she is the woman of Revelation 12. In fact a lot Catholic depictions of Mary are based on this imagery. And at Akita in particular the warnings were becoming urgent.

I wasn’t a member of a fundamentalist church. But I still think that there’s going to be immense trouble in the next few years. Enormous trouble.

"Beginning on September 20, 1973, the statue began to sweat from the face to the feet. Tears began to flow down the face. Also, a very pleasant odor was felt in the chapel. This happened many times in the presence of others, including the Bishop. In all, the statue wept a total of 101 times. On October 13, 1973, Our Lady gave Sister Sasagawa this serious message: “As I said before if mankind does not repent, the Heavenly Father will inflict a very serious punishment on the whole world; a punishment the likes of which has never happened before. Many people will perish. Pray the Rosary often. Only I can prevent the disaster. Whoever entrusts themselves to me will be saved.” The statue continued to weep and other messages followed. Pilgrims came and many received answers to their prayers. Then, in 1981, Theresa Chon, who was suffering from terminal brain cancer, was miraculously healed through the intercession of Our Lady of Akita. This healing was well documented by Fr. Joseph Oh of Seoul, S. Korea. "

 

[Nino]

I did a paper on the Vatican and the left wing nazis,I found some 38 articles from the NYTimes re Rome and PiusX11 condemning nazi policy towards the Jews…I have never found one …ONE …UNO…speech by FDR or the JDL or the Communist party USA speaking up even half as much! True,Victimization is the play of the day…certain groups are victims…Homosexuals, transdressers,etc…but we who actually make the wheels turn towards righteousness are the real victims…how many movies or sit coms illustrate Daddys has happy,well adjusted individuals who are not mean,stupid and out of touch. It is we married men,faithull to our wives and children who are the real victims in this brave new world…and it started early…read the brief description under each of the classic flicks…see how many times the male is depicted as the villan…the arch enemy of all that is good…even in the classic…father knows best show…man imagine a show having such a radical title…he was constantly insulted by his three kids while his charming wife was never insulted by them. If you brainwash a person into believing that no matter what,he/she is never responsible for his actions thats it always somebody elses fault…he becomes worthless to himself and a danger to others…please the few adults on this site re-read that last sentence…for the life you save may be your own…all the best…

 

[Kaninchen]

I did a paper on the Vatican and the left wing nazis,I found some 38 articles from the NYTimes re Rome and PiusX11 condemning nazi policy towards the Jews…I have never found one …ONE …UNO…speech by FDR or the JDL or the Communist party USA speaking up even half as much! True,Victimization is the play of the day…certain groups are victims…Homosexuals, transdressers,etc…but we who actually make the wheels turn towards righteousness are the real victims…how many movies or sit coms illustrate Daddys has happy,well adjusted individuals who are not mean,stupid and out of touch. It is we married men,faithull to our wives and children who are the real victims in this brave new world…and it started early…read the brief description under each of the classic flicks…see how many times the male is depicted as the villan…the arch enemy of all that is good…even in the classic…father knows best show…man imagine a show having such a radical title…he was constantly insulted by his three kids while his charming wife was never insulted by them. If you brainwash a person into believing that no matter what,he/she is never responsible for his actions thats it always somebody elses fault…he becomes worthless to himself and a danger to others…please the few adults on this site re-read that last sentence…for the life you save may be your own…all the best…

Yes, it’s true, there are a few men who portray themselves as being quite bonkers.

 

[Genesius]

**Genesius, I have never made a secret of the fact that I do accept 20 percent of the NT as true of coming from and about Jesus. The other 80 percent are the result of interpolations, by either the gospel writers or the Church. I mean, if Jesus is to be taken as a religious Jew, anything about him which is not Jewish, is therefore, not true. **

Thank you for clarifying that. I haven’t posted or read in these forums for a while so I haven’t read all of your posts. I can understand how you, being a Jew (perhaps Orthodox?), would not recognize the authority of the NT Scriptures, let alone recognize Jesus as the Messiah (if indeed you do not).

Having said that, again, it seems strange that you would accept ANY of the NT Scriptures as authoritative w/o interpolations.

 

[Genesius]

“Only I can prevent the disaster. Whoever entrusts themselves to me will be saved.”

You seem to put a lot of trust in private revelation/theological opinion, which is the least binding type of doctrine (if you can call some of it that) on the faithful. Frankly, I am quite weary of Marion apparitions, particularly those that attribute such a quote to her as above. Only MARY can prevent disaster, and whoever entrusts themselves to HER will be saved? I’m sorry but do you think that she might make room for GOD to prevent disaster, let alone be AN agent of SALVATION (perhaps THE agent of salvation)? I suspect that Mary herself is appalled at these ‘apparitions’ and/or quotes attributed to her.

On a different note, you are assuming that those things mentioned in Revelation have yet to occur; events described over 2000 years ago. Some Pretorists believe many apocalyptic events described in Christian Scriptures have already occurred within the last 2000 years, and most within the first few centuries. Have you ever considered that possibility? I’m not saying they absolutely have, but then again I’m not asserting that I know much at all based upon speculative conjecture. I find that to be the case with many protestants who are preoccupied with eschatology. Each one claims that their speculative private interpretation is solid and acts as though it is almost as vital, if not more, to believe than the gospel itself!

The fact is, eschatology is one of the most obscure topics of theology in all of Sacred Scripture, which is why the Church chooses to remain silent on most of it. Most of it is a mystery that God will reveal when He chooses to reveal it through His Church. In the meantime, there are more important issues for us to concern ourselves with, such as our own faith formation. Do we love Jesus? Are we demonstrating that love to others? Are we truly interested in the Truth that we CAN know, or are we too obessed with that which we cannot know?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Thank you for clarifying that. I haven’t posted or read in these forums for a while so I haven’t read all of your posts. I can understand how you, being a Jew (perhaps Orthodox?), would not recognize the authority of the NT Scriptures, let alone recognize Jesus as the Messiah (if indeed you do not).

Having said that, again, it seems strange that you would accept ANY of the NT Scriptures as authoritative w/o interpolations.

**Yes, I do not. I am neither of the Jews who still expect an inividual Messiah to come. I am of the increasing class of Jews whose views of the Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People. Just as Isaiah predicted in his book.

I understand that you find strange that a Jew should acknowledge at least a small part of the NT as authoritative. The majority discard the whole thing altogether. **

 

[twb1621]

**Laws are composed of commands, and they are not given with the purpose to divide Jews from “outsiders.” This is a fabrication of Pauline rhetoric as a cop-out to mascarade his policy of Replacement Theology. **

show the credible support, the opposing doctrine that contradicts this, please.

 

[twb1621]

**Nevertheless, Jesus used to refer to the Torah as God’s Word. A thing which you cannot say the same about your NT, which came to existence 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. **

Ben, why do you keep referring to "the came into existence after’ as though it is supportive of your rebuttals when we (you and I) have the same situation with scripture?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

You seem to put a lot of trust in private revelation/theological opinion, which is the least binding type of doctrine (if you can call some of it that) on the faithful. Frankly, I am quite weary of Marion apparitions, particularly those that attribute such a quote to her as above. Only MARY can prevent disaster, and whoever entrusts themselves to HER will be saved? I’m sorry but do you think that she might make room for GOD to prevent disaster, let alone be AN agent of SALVATION (perhaps THE agent of salvation)? I suspect that Mary herself is appalled at these ‘apparitions’ and/or quotes attributed to her.

On a different note, you are assuming that those things mentioned in Revelation have yet to occur; events described over 2000 years ago. Some Pretorists believe many apocalyptic events described in Christian Scriptures have already occurred within the last 2000 years, and most within the first few centuries. Have you ever considered that possibility? I’m not saying they absolutely have, but then again I’m not asserting that I know much at all based upon speculative conjecture. I find that to be the case with many protestants who are preoccupied with eschatology. Each one claims that their speculative private interpretation is solid and acts as though it is almost as vital, if not more, to believe than the gospel itself!

The fact is, eschatology is one of the most obscure topics of theology in all of Sacred Scripture, which is why the Church chooses to remain silent on most of it. Most of it is a mystery that God will reveal when He chooses to reveal it through His Church. In the meantime, there are more important issues for us to concern ourselves with, such as our own faith formation. Do we love Jesus? Are we demonstrating that love to others? Are we truly interested in the Truth that we CAN know, or are we too obessed with that which we cannot know?

All right. I have a slightly more personal reason to be concerned. The night my father died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology for 20 years of cruel behaviour, we argued and conversed and then he disappeared with an almighty, terrifying scream.

During the proceedings he made a handful of predictions eg. “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more.” “There’s going to be a couple of nuclear wars - the first limited, the second all-out. The Moslems will start the first. They’ll fly a couple of planes into a couple of buildings” (not bad for someone who died in January 1979.).

There were a couple of other things. But about 11 or 12 years later around 1990 or 1991, I sat in the office of the pastor I met about four years after my father died, while he said, “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” That was an almost word for word rendition of my “dead” father’s prediction.

So, in my particular case, I am very concerned.

I go to a Catholic psychiatrist a couple of times a year for depression, who believes I saw my father that night. The psychiatrist has had his own peculiar experiences. One day he was working in his office when a voice just said, “Go to Maclean” (small town in northern NSW, Australia). There was no reason, no timing, nothing. So he just noted it. About two months later he was involved in a family healing mass in Lismore, not far from Maclean, when an aboriginal woman came up to him and said “I don’t want to interfere, or sound silly, or make a nuisance of myself, but I seem to be getting told you should go to Maclean.” Having been warned by the voice, he went, and found himself on an island used in the early days as a lockup for Aboriginals. There was some unfinished spiritual business by the sound of it.

The point is that in my case I think there is a great deal of trouble coming. When obvious miracles accompany Marian apparitions, there are only two possible sources - God or the devil. If it’s the devil, then you can happily ignore it. But if it’s from God, you ignore the accompanying message at your peril.

Take your pick.

 

[Lapell]

**You will have your question extremely well answered if you read that book, “A History of the Jews” by Paul Jonhson. He is a Christian. I am not sure if his church is Catholic. But his book is the best I have read. He tells about the Jewish People from the time of Abraham until our modern times. And what kind of world we would have, if we would at all, without the Jews.

Just a taste as an answer to your question, the earth has reached more than five billion people. Only 14 millions are of Jews. Now, you can pick up all the Nobel Prizes given away since the beginning and select 50 percent for the 14 millions. The other 50 percent, you can share with the five billion. Most diseases owe their cure to the Jews. Let alone that we have given to the world the knowledge of the true God.

If you love to have fun, be aware that we would not have Hollywood if the Jews were not around. These 14 million on our planet keep more people at work than the five billion put together. And last but not least, America would not have won its war of Independency from the British if it were not for the famous Uncle Sam, a Jew called Samuel (Cohen) if I am not mistaken on the family name. Without his money, America would have sucumbed; at least for another ten or twenty years.**

And indeed the sole fact that the Jews were chosen by God and agreed back then to be chosen by God does make them unique. Any serious Catholic should be grateful to the Jews for having accepted God’s choice of them. It is from among them that Jesus the Messiah came out, blessed is He now and forever. Amen!

 

[Lapell]

**Yes, I do not. I am neither of the Jews who still expect an inividual Messiah to come. I am of the increasing class of Jews whose views of the Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People. Just as Isaiah predicted in his book.

I understand that you find strange that a Jew should acknowledge at least a small part of the NT as authoritative. The majority discard the whole thing altogether. **

Wasn’t Israel as a people a collective messiah even before Isaiah? If so, Isaiah’s passage could not be a prediction!

 

[Lapell]

**I understand that you find strange that a Jew should acknowledge at least a small part of the NT as authoritative. The majority discard the whole thing altogether. **

I don’t remember your having listed all the NT passages which in your view are authoritative. If you already have, in which thread can we find them all listed, and in which post on that thread? If you haven’t, would you list them all here, whether in one post or several? Thank you?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

**Yes, I do not. I am neither of the Jews who still expect an inividual Messiah to come. I am of the increasing class of Jews whose views of the Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People. Just as Isaiah predicted in his book.

I understand that you find strange that a Jew should acknowledge at least a small part of the NT as authoritative. The majority discard the whole thing altogether. **

Your own priests, way back in Herod’s time, stated to him that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem.

Secondly what are we supposed to learn from the collective people of Israel? How to build a concrete wall? How to argue over different beliefs? Build a socialist Kibbutz system (not that I’ve got too many arguments with that one)? Put our hopes in praying up against a crumbling wall? Defend yourself with nuclear weapons? To be forever fighting for the mere right to exist?

Not trying to be cynical about the Jewish people, but the Messiah was clearly indicated to be a single individual. And by rising from the dead, He indicated that evil will not win. It can kill the body, but it cannot destroy the soul, unless we let it.

 

[reen12]

**That’s an interesting episode about Paul. He used to preach mostly in the synagogues of the Jews, although claiming that he was an apostle of the Gentiles. In Acts 13 he had been so much opposed by the Jews that he shook the dust from his feet and said, “we now turn to the Gentiles.” Do you know where he went to after he shook the dust of his feet and left? To the synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) Wasn’t the man something? He loved to say that he was the apostle for the Gentiles and never left the Jews in peace… **

Bingo! Thank you, Ben, for a laugh at the end of the day.
And so true!

Been considering your posts from the beginning of the thread.
Much that I would disagree with, in some of your statements,
but I do agree with a number of things that you’ve stated.

I’m only up to April, I think, in terms of your posts.
*

Do you accept the Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith?

jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

I particularly appreciate the first paragraph in the above link.

Best wishes,

reen12*

 

[Ben_Masada]

show the credible support, the opposing doctrine that contradicts this, please.

Galatians 4:21-31.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, why do you keep referring to "the came into existence after’ as though it is supportive of your rebuttals when we (you and I) have the same situation with scripture?

I agree with you, but there is an enormous difference between mine and your situations. It’s not important to me who or when the Tanach was written, as long as the writers were Jewish. In your case, you have Gentiles former disciples of Paul writing for the building of a Church using a Jewish background. That’s a no no.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Wasn’t Israel as a people a collective messiah even before Isaiah? If so, Isaiah’s passage could not be a prediction!

Isaiah was needed to put into words what was in reality since God had set Israel apart as His Son. Read exodus 4:22,23. Besides, Isaiah needed to give form to the prophecy of Shiloh put forwards by Jacob at his deathbed. If you read my thread on Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David you will have a much better understanding of Isaiah 53.