The Mark Of The Beast?

[vluvski]

Thank you, St. Eric, for mentioning the Lamb’s Supper. Revelation, in Catholic theology, is pretty much thought to be a literary description of the Mass.

There is no need to be afraid of ANY book in the Bible, and I think it is inaccurate to say that the Church herself has shyed away from it. Perhaps there are simply too few who know and understand enough to teach it.

 

[St.Eric]

vluvski:

Thank you, St. Eric, for mentioning the Lamb’s Supper. Revelation, in Catholic theology, is pretty much thought to be a literary description of the Mass.

There is no need to be afraid of ANY book in the Bible, and I think it is inaccurate to say that the Church herself has shyed away from it. Perhaps there are simply too few who know and understand enough to teach it.

No problem! Blessings to you and your finace and may the big day go well. the picture on your website looks like Crater Lake,Oregon. Is it?

And yes, we do not need to be afraid of Revelation or any other book. I highly recommend the above mentioned book. The Mass is truly Heaven on earth!

 

[joshua_b]

This almost brings us back full circle to my original comment (which I admit came from Scott Hahn…I’m not quite so brilliant or insightful). By putting the book of Revelation in context with the Mass, as something going on right now, and perpetually, we take the interpretations out of the frame of linear time and space. Its amazing how much more sense it makes from that angle.

 

[puzzleannie]

one thing is sure, if the mark of the beast is something to do with modern technology, I guarantee we seniors won’t notice a thing, as technology leaves most of us in the dust. We will have to ask our grandchildren for help in recognizing the tribulation if it starts through some electronic means.

 

[Stephen_Butler]

Adonia:

Yes, I agree with what u say here, but now you can still use cash. What if cash becomes no more and the chip becomes the “cash”? What if without the chip you are not allowed to buy or sell anything? Not allowed to get a job? To get healthcare? It sounds like the prophecy could thus be fulfilled.

Speculation on the book of Revelation is perilous. Note that in 2000 years the Catholic Church has been continuously and unflinchingly cautious about it, a stance which I would suggest we mimic.

Consider this particular interpretation, one which I have heard an awful lot from Baptists, Lutheran’s, Pentacostal’s, and Assembly of God members. Your interpretations of the words written clearly on the page seems quite reasonable at face value.

However, compare it to the things which we already know to be true. Compare it to our understanding of sin. Sin requires three components to be serious, a grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent. Now, how well does that agree with the possibility this mark is a sin that will sneak up on us one day and damn us to hell forever without hope of redemption?

There is another passage in the bible which says that blaspheming against the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin. It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of that passage to say that if you curse the Holy Spirit one day in a fit of passion that you are now irrevocably damned. But ask any priest if that interpretation is true … How do we know that interpretation isn’t true? Because it conflicts with what we know for certain already. Interpreting that one verse correctly requires a lot of understanding. How much more difficult will it be to interpret Revelation with full understanding?

The electronic lowjacks are a problem in my opinion. Note that an arm implant is not the only one being considered. There are dental implants to help parents keep track of children. Many corporate professionals have mobile devices which can be used to track their postion. There are considerations of a national electronic identification system which would require everyone to carry an identification that can and will be scanned for all transactions. All of these things are very much alive and well as ideas.

I oppose them not because I think that Big Brother is the antichrist in disguise but rather because our national government has an unrelenting propensity for abusing any source of information in existence, and I do not trust the FBI, ATF, Homeland Security, local police, or the NSA enough to just smile and presume that my every movement and action are not capriciously or maliciously being monitored. My government has sacrificed credibility on the altar of National Security and lost my trust with it. So, I oppose measures which make it easier for my government to invade my privacy. But not because of the book of Revelation.

 

[JezCat]

My journey toward the Catholic Church began while I was studying Church history and began to relate all the persecutions suffered under Roman rule in the early centuries to the events described in Revelation. For years I had naively believed that Revelation was a “End Times codebook” written especially for Christians today so they may know who the anti-Christ will be.

I read about the destruction of the temple. I learned about Nero and his death. I discovered the seven churches were actual churches and not mearly code for future places. I read about Diocletian and the view of him being worse than Nero and the rumors that he was Nero Rendivivus (sp?). About the practice of “marking” slaves on the “hands and forehead”.

I researched different writing styles and various types of literature and their purposes found in the Bible. Then I realized that John the Divine (not John the Apostle) was writing to actual Christians of his day who were suffering severe persecutions and torture because they would not worship Roman gods.

I learned about various conquering armies and how they were symbolically described in Revelation to hide their meaning from Roman rule. And for the first time, Revelation made complete sense! I understood every number, color, and symbol and who or what they pertained to. I realized that those “End Times” movies and books were modern fairy tales.

Then I realized that the Catholic Church that I had been persecuting for years had gotten it right! And if they were right about this when most others were wrong…what else was the Church right about??? And thus my journey into the Church began. Thanks be to God. Amen.

 

[freesoulhope]

Very wise, God bless you and thanks be to God.

 

[joshua_b]

JezCat:

My journey toward the Catholic Church began while I was studying Church history and began to relate all the persecutions suffered under Roman rule in the early centuries to the events described in Revelation. For years I had naively believed that Revelation was a “End Times codebook” written especially for Christians today so they may know who the anti-Christ will be.

I read about the destruction of the temple. I learned about Nero and his death. I discovered the seven churches were actual churches and not mearly code for future places. I read about Diocletian and the view of him being worse than Nero and the rumors that he was Nero Rendivivus (sp?). About the practice of “marking” slaves on the “hands and forehead”.

I researched different writing styles and various types of literature and their purposes found in the Bible. Then I realized that John the Divine (not John the Apostle) was writing to actual Christians of his day who were suffering severe persecutions and torture because they would not worship Roman gods.

I learned about various conquering armies and how they were symbolically described in Revelation to hide their meaning from Roman rule. And for the first time, Revelation made complete sense! I understood every number, color, and symbol and who or what they pertained to. I realized that those “End Times” movies and books were modern fairy tales.

Then I realized that the Catholic Church that I had been persecuting for years had gotten it right! And if they were right about this when most others were wrong…what else was the Church right about??? And thus my journey into the Church began. Thanks be to God. Amen.

Can you reccomend some of your reference material ? I would love to get ahold of some of it.

 

[Fr_Chuck]

The mark has been

social security numbers,

IP web addresses

the internet

And I know I am missing a few.

Heck some of the protestant churches call the Catholic Church the anti christ and making the sign of the cross the mark of the beast.

The chips are being used in livestock for ID for some time.

 

[Thal59]

I once saw a photo of Jimmy Swaggert with a pimple on his forehead. I wonder what that might mean?

Thal59

 

[RobbyS]

JezCat:

My journey toward the Catholic Church began while I was studying Church history and began to relate all the persecutions suffered under Roman rule in the early centuries to the events described in Revelation. For years I had naively believed that Revelation was a “End Times codebook” written especially for Christians today so they may know who the anti-Christ will be.

I read about the destruction of the temple. I learned about Nero and his death. I discovered the seven churches were actual churches and not mearly code for future places. I read about Diocletian and the view of him being worse than Nero and the rumors that he was Nero Rendivivus (sp?). About the practice of “marking” slaves on the “hands and forehead”.

I researched different writing styles and various types of literature and their purposes found in the Bible. Then I realized that John the Divine (not John the Apostle) was writing to actual Christians of his day who were suffering severe persecutions and torture because they would not worship Roman gods.

I learned about various conquering armies and how they were symbolically described in Revelation to hide their meaning from Roman rule. And for the first time, Revelation made complete sense! I understood every number, color, and symbol and who or what they pertained to. I realized that those “End Times” movies and books were modern fairy tales.

Then I realized that the Catholic Church that I had been persecuting for years had gotten it right! And if they were right about this when most others were wrong…what else was the Church right about??? And thus my journey into the Church began. Thanks be to God. Amen.

The biblical school Claude Tresmonant, who rejects the notion that the New Testqament is a late composition, suggests that ole 666 refers to the Herodians, who certainly were the opponents of Jesus and his followers right up to the time of the destruction of the Temple.

 

[spauline]

JezCat:

Then I realized that the Catholic Church that I had been persecuting for years had gotten it right! And if they were right about this when most others were wrong…what else was the Church right about??? And thus my journey into the Church began. Thanks be to God. Amen.

Dear JezCat,

I am very happy to hear of your conversion to the Church! Welcome to the True Church, and I pray that God Bless you.

but not to be mean, I don’t think your above study has uncovered everything that the Book of Rev is about. The Book is about the Mass. fine. The Book is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. fine. The book is about the Early Church and pagan Rome. fine. However, I would object to anyone who would say that these are the ***only ***things it is about, and much more if these are the primary and most useful interpretations. I mean, the seven “kings” of the beast are Roman Emperors or Herodian kings, and ***nothing more?! ***I’m sorry, that’s absurd. The devil has instigated sinful resistance to God’s Plan across the WHOLE of Salvation History, but we are supposed to relegate the beast to ***merely ***the Roman Empire, and its emperors or kings? ECF traditions already exist to expand the beast far beyond merely Rome. again, as above, I refer you to some ancient traditions of Catholic fathers: here and here on my blog.

I don’t mean to be mean, but I think that Dr. Hahn’s materials and the coded-comfort crowd are missing out on much deeper and broader spiritual meanings to the text. the following article by mr. o’brien also expresses my sentiments.

 

[Wisdom]

I do have to be amused that people here think that by having some mark big brother will know everything about you. Well hate to break it to you he already does. If you have a social security number the government and anybody with a computer has access to your life history. Its too late fundies you have taken the mark the moment you received a social security number. Of course I think the mark is subject to interpretation and don’t think because I have a social security number I have lost my soul.

 

[Wisdom]

Fr_Chuck:

The mark has been

social security numbers,

IP web addresses

the internet

And I know I am missing a few.

Heck some of the protestant churches call the Catholic Church the anti christ and making the sign of the cross the mark of the beast.

The chips are being used in livestock for ID for some time.

Back in the 1980’s when bar codes first came out many fundie preachers were saying it was the Mark or the beginnng of the system of the mark and the next step was having a barcode stamped on you guessed it your head or hand. THis is what happens when you use your newspaper to interpret ancient apocalyptic books. I am sure St John would just roll his eyes of some of things people come up with.

 

[Reepicheep]

When the Mark of the Beast is offered us:
If we know it for the Mark of the Beast, then we can refuse it.

If we do not know, then we are not guilty of any sin if we accept it through ignorance.

In any case, I believe that God will see to it that His children will know the Mark when it’s offered them, so we can make our choice.

Trust Him and praise Him. :bowdown2:

 

[JoeyWarren]

Wisdom:

I do have to be amused that people here think that by having some mark big brother will know everything about you. Well hate to break it to you he already does. If you have a social security number the government and anybody with a computer has access to your life history. Its too late fundies you have taken the mark the moment you received a social security number. Of course I think the mark is subject to interpretation and don’t think because I have a social security number I have lost my soul.

Interesting note: The United States has set aside a series of numbers for future use for the rest of the world.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

JoeyWarren:

I have not read any outside source on this issue. My best knowledge is that the Church has elected to leave this book alone and for good reason. It is dangerous to try to interpret it. I tread on dangerous ground even when I conduct Bible study on it. I being an ex-Pentecostal know what the Rapture believing protestants know about it, so I cover what they say and then point out the dangers of that.

Many Fathers of the Church have already interpreted the Book of Revelation or the Apocalypse of Saint John. Most put the book in a liturgical context, how the Mass on Heaven meets the Mass on Earth and the coming of the New Jerusalem out of the Heavens being the Church. I really recommend Scott Hahn’s work entitled “The Lamb’s Supper : The Mass As Heaven On Earth”. Saint Augustine took this view. I do not believe the Book was written to a specific generation as many in the Fundamentalist Dispensationalist movement do. After thoroughly reading the book through half a dozen times, this is the only conclusion that makes any sense. I myself do not take the “mark of the beast,” thing literally. I mean, there are so many other obviously symbolic meanings in the Book, so why should we take this one passage literally here? I don’t think we should turn to modern fundamentalist thought to interpret the book of Revelation but rather turn to our own fathers who have commented on the subject.

newadvent.org/fathers/1102055.htm
Saint Augustine:

1. For this reason the Apostle John writes in the Apocalypse to seven churches. The Church, moreover, while it remains under the conditions of our mortal life in the flesh, is, on account of her liability to change, spoken of Scripture by the name of the moon; e.g., “They have made ready their arrows in the quiver, that they may, while the moon is obscured, wound those who are upright in heart.” For before that comes to pass of which the apostle says, “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory,” the Church seems in the time of her pilgrimage obscured, groaning under many iniquities; and at such a time, the snares of those who deceive and lead astray are to be feared, and these are intended by the word “arrows” in this passage. Again, we have another instance in Psalm 89, where, because of the faithful witnesses which she everywhere brings forth on the side of truth, the Church is called “the moon, a faithful witness in heaven.” And when the Psalmist sang of the Lord’s kingdom, he said, “In His days shall be righteousness and abundance of peace, until the moon be destroyed;” i.e. abundance of peace shall increase so greatly, until He shall at length take away all the changeableness incidental to this mortal condition. Then shall death, the last enemy, be destroyed; and whatever obstacle to the perfection of our peace is due to the infirmity of our flesh shall be utterly consumed when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality. We have another instance in this, that the walls of the town named Jericho – which in the Hebrew tongue is said to signify "moon " – fell when they had been compassed for the seventh time by the ark of the covenant borne round the city. For what else is conveyed by the promise of the coming of the heavenly kingdom, which was symbolized in the carrying of the ark round Jericho, than that all the strongholds of this mortal life, i.e. every hope pertaining to this world which resists the hope of the world to come, must be destroyed, with the soul’s free consent, by the sevenfold gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore it was, that when the ark was going round, those walls fell, not by violent assault, but of themselves. There are, besides these, other passages in Scripture which, speaking of the moon, impress upon us under that figure the condition of the Church while here, amid cares and labours, she is a pilgrim under the lot of mortality, and far from that Jerusalem of which the holy angels are the citizens.

 

[Stephen_Butler]

Wisdom:

I do have to be amused that people here think that by having some mark big brother will know everything about you. Well hate to break it to you he already does. If you have a social security number the government and anybody with a computer has access to your life history. Its too late fundies you have taken the mark the moment you received a social security number. Of course I think the mark is subject to interpretation and don’t think because I have a social security number I have lost my soul.

I am as opposed to government eavesdropping as anyone. But, I feel this is overstating the matter somewhat. Anyone who has access to your social security number and has sufficient expertise can attempt to steal your identity and will succeed a significant percentage of the time.

However, the government is not doing this, criminals are. This problem is an extrapolation of the fundamental limitations of passwords as a security barrier in total concept. Otherwise stated, it’s a technical issue, not a governmental abuse issue. As a matter of fact, one of the strongest arguments in favor of unique physical identification methods, be it digital certs on physical devices (smart cards), biometrics, implants, or similar technologies, is that they will enable you to prove that you are who you claim to be, but they make it very difficult for an imposter to do so whereas someone with a social security number might or might not be you.

And this conflict is where all of these supposed “marks” are coming from. There is an enormous interest in many circles to be able to take a person’s claim for identity, compare it to an authoritative national or international source, and determine with high reliability that you are who you have claimed to be. Password systems like SSN, DL, mother’s maiden name, address, phone number, are all based on the restriction of knowledge, and the internet as well as mass communication have made restricting knowledge very very difficult. A system which identifies you by a unique physical mechanism does not rely on knowledge and is more difficult to beat.

But, this very same system which improves our identification mechanism for commerce, privacy, references, background checks, and other tangible benefits also leaves us vulnerable to abuse by authorities. This knowledge can then be used to track where your identification has been presented, when, and to what purpose. This knowledge can and will be abused by the government, insurance, creditors, employers, law enforcement, and others. For this reason I oppose it, but I suspect that I am rapidly becoming a lone voice in the wind.

Once again, there is no antichrist driving any of this. It is arising because of our society’s need for reliable identification. But, as I say this, I am an escalation engineer for a certain large software company whose founder has a last name starting with “G”, and if there actually is an antichrist running around, there is a good chance that it is my boss.

Just kidding.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Semper Fi said " mean, there are so many other obviously symbolic meanings in the Book, so why should we take this one passage literally here? "I

That’s why I suggest John 6, the discourse on the Body and Blood of Christ with the subsequent John 6:66

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Even that possible interpretation is dangerous.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Stephen Butler:

I am as opposed to government eavesdropping as anyone.
However, the government is not doing this, criminals are.

Are you 100% sure the Government is not doing this already in the name of “National Security”
Stephen Butler:

A system which identifies you by a unique physical mechanism does not rely on knowledge and is more difficult to beat.

Yes and that will be one of the arguments that the Antichrist will use when he plays the terrorist card again. We have declared a war on terrorism. The chip implant could play in that role for arguments sake. With technology going the way it is, The implant will not only be an Identification device but it may also contain a “Transponder” as well so that everyone will be traceable. And Chip Inforcement Officers will walk thru the crowds detecting whether someone has a chip or not with some type of handheld device. The Anti-Christ will argue for the sake of “National Security” that all Americans undergo a full Background Investigation and then be implanted with a chip to help combat Terrorism here in the states. It will just be a matter of time before it spreads to the remainder of the world for the same reason. That is just one of many possible scenarios.
Stephen Butler:

For this reason I oppose it, but I suspect that I am rapidly becoming a lone voice in the wind.

I am a voice as well.
Stephen Butler:

Once again, there is no antichrist driving any of this.

Only if you were right. My personal belief is the “Bushichrist Theory”

Stephen, I am a Programmer/Analyst. My knowledge of what can be done is frightening from an ex-Pentecostal standpoint.