The Marriage Bed

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There is some speculation that female orgasm can increase the chances of conception. I think that it’s very important for a man to satisfy his wife in this manner. Ideally, they should orgasm at the same time, and from what I’ve read this takes considerable practice and coordination.
 
I believe it was Fulton Sheen who said it takes 3 to get married…That third party is with you in the bedroom and throughout your marriage (if you let him). Relations are a part of the sacrament of marriage. Sex is a tremendous gift by which God allows two spouses to unit with the possibility of creating a new life with God given soul who’s purpose is to know and love God and spend eternity with him in heaven. It is not (should not) be dirty or shameful. Keep that in mind and the basic requirement you mentioned and I think you will steer clear of inappropriate acts.

At least for me certain acts or types of “roll playing” or “talking dirty etc.” are simply unthinkable with the above in mind.
 
Must… resist… serious… posting…

Argh.

You know what’s gross? Men urinate from their genitals. And I mean, they get literally put inside of that woman? Seriously? Gross. Also, did you know that women bleed and shed their uterine lining and it like… comes out and whatnot? Seriously.

Blood. Urine. Gross. Inappropriate. Seriously.

One could even say unclean. Seriously.

Also, did you know that women can get uterine tract infections from sex? Or that they can even get infections from not-sex and reasons beyond their control? Also gross and unhealthy. Seriously.

I think the best way for us to be healthy is to never put our dirty parts near anything that’s clean. Seriously.

And finally… I think we all need a serious and frank discussion about kissing. Did you know that there are more germs in a human’s mouth than anywhere else on the body?! It’s a petri dish of nastiness. So what’s with all this kissing stuff? You can spread infections so, so easily. God wouldn’t want us to get infections from one another, so what are you doing? Seriously.

I’m not even going to touch the talk about anything related to people’s… bottoms… or inappropriate talk. I think it’s clear how out of bounds and unnatural that sort of thing is since, again, it’s dirty and infectious and all that stuff. Thanks to the other posters for addressing that. Seriously.

This was a very serious post, addressing very serious objections.
 
Not sure how to take your post Bucket, but unless you have a urinary track infection, urine is generally sterile.
 
Not sure how to take your post Bucket, but unless you have a urinary track infection, urine is generally sterile.
I still don’t want it all over me or up inside me. Would you?

Nor would I want anything to do with my wife’s vaginal mucus, but that doesn’t stop people from using it for NFP.

In short, “it’s icky” isn’t the be-all end-all of acceptable/unacceptable sexual practices.
 
Must… resist… serious… posting…

Argh.

You know what’s gross? Men urinate from their genitals. And I mean, they get literally put inside of that woman? Seriously? Gross. Also, did you know that women bleed and shed their uterine lining and it like… comes out and whatnot? Seriously.

Blood. Urine. Gross. Inappropriate. Seriously.

One could even say unclean. Seriously.

Also, did you know that women can get uterine tract infections from sex? Or that they can even get infections from not-sex and reasons beyond their control? Also gross and unhealthy. Seriously.

I think the best way for us to be healthy is to never put our dirty parts near anything that’s clean. Seriously.

And finally… I think we all need a serious and frank discussion about kissing. Did you know that there are more germs in a human’s mouth than anywhere else on the body?! It’s a petri dish of nastiness. So what’s with all this kissing stuff? You can spread infections so, so easily. God wouldn’t want us to get infections from one another, so what are you doing? Seriously.

I’m not even going to touch the talk about anything related to people’s… bottoms… or inappropriate talk. I think it’s clear how out of bounds and unnatural that sort of thing is since, again, it’s dirty and infectious and all that stuff. Thanks to the other posters for addressing that. Seriously.

This was a very serious post, addressing very serious objections.
:clapping: :tiphat:
Very nice post, The Bucket. 👍
I never understand why so many people assert that a sexual practice is immoral based upon hygiene. Getting squelchy has never been a tidy, hygienic process. But there are these wonderful things called showers that brilliantly handle any post-coitus cleanup.:rolleyes:
 
Not to mention, how many deaths does pregnancy lead to? Is there anything wrong with pregnancy? Of course not.
 
:clapping: :tiphat:
Very nice post, The Bucket. 👍
I never understand why so many people assert that a sexual practice is immoral based upon hygiene. Getting squelchy has never been a tidy, hygienic process. But there are these wonderful things called showers that brilliantly handle any post-coitus cleanup.:rolleyes:
Right. Ickiness? That’s a personal issue. Some people are comfortable with things others are not. That’s personal taste.

What’s morally wrong is a) doing something outright impermissible in terms of maintaining the procreative nature of the act. b) objectively treating a spouse in a degrading manner. And I mean like, seriously weird and insane stuff. c) coercing/forcing a spouse to do something he or she is not comfortable with.

I place special emphasis on C here. Plenty of personal tastes have been mentioned in this thread and others. It’s one thing for a spouse to request to “try something new.” It’s quite another to demand it, demean the spouse over his or her refusal or flat-out force the spouse to do it through psychological coercion or physical power. If you’re someone who doesn’t like something… by all means don’t do it! It’s not wrong to not do it! It is wrong for your spouse to bully you over something with which you are not comfortable.

What I’m really, really sick of is people projecting their own proclivities/tastes as “right.” There’s objective right and wrong. As Catholics we should know that and live it. The Church is silent on these matters and therefore we should be as well when it comes to other people’s lives with the exception of circumstances that fall under the A, B and C listed above.

The same goes for all the modesty threads or music threads, etc. etc. What your sense of modesty is may or may not be suited to a specific cultural norm. Your personal sense of it may be out of line with the Church and excessive to the point where it’s immodest actually because you’re standing out in a way that draws attention in a holier-than-thou way. Modesty of the heart is what has always mattered. That’s why modesty is an intensely personal issue and not something that can generally be policed beyond the Spirit’s action.

I might not be particularly interested in something another poster is talking about when it comes to sexuality. OK. Is it violating what the Catechism teaches? No? Well then I should probably say something like “well it’s not what I fancy, but I see no objection by the Magesterium,” or I should just say nothing.
 
I still don’t want it all over me or up inside me. Would you?

Nor would I want anything to do with my wife’s vaginal mucus, but that doesn’t stop people from using it for NFP.

In short, “it’s icky” isn’t the be-all end-all of acceptable/unacceptable sexual practices.
:confused: all I said is that urine is sterile. It is therefore not a good comparison to feces.

Feces is never sterile it is always full of bacteria. Urinary tract infections are usually caused by bacteria that live in the large intestine. Women have shorter urethra than men which is why it is more common in women than men. Urinary tract infections are no picnic.
 
John Paul II wrote, “Theology of the Body”. This masterpiece is a great light helping us to love as God created us to love. Further, Christopher West has taken JPII’s literature and inserted it into today’s pop culture. Pope Benedict XVI also wrote his first encyclical on love. Here is a piece for you to sample:
This is due first and foremost to the fact that man is a being made up of body and soul. Man is truly himself when his body and soul are intimately united; the challenge of eros can be said to be truly overcome when this unification is achieved. Should he aspire to be pure spirit and to reject the flesh as pertaining to his animal nature alone, then spirit and body would both lose their dignity. On the other hand, should he deny the spirit and consider matter, the body, as the only reality, he would likewise lose his greatness. The epicure Gassendi used to offer Descartes the humorous greeting: “O Soul!” And Descartes would reply: “O Flesh!”.[3] Yet it is neither the spirit alone nor the body alone that loves: it is man, the person, a unified creature composed of body and soul, who loves. Only when both dimensions are truly united, does man attain his full stature. Only thus is love —eros—able to mature and attain its authentic grandeur.
Nowadays Christianity of the past is often criticized as having been opposed to the body; and it is quite true that tendencies of this sort have always existed. Yet the contemporary way of exalting the body is deceptive. Eros, reduced to pure “sex”, has become a commodity, a mere “thing” to be bought and sold, or rather, man himself becomes a commodity. This is hardly man’s great “yes” to the body. On the contrary, he now considers his body and his sexuality as the purely material part of himself, to be used and exploited at will. Nor does he see it as an arena for the exercise of his freedom, but as a mere object that he attempts, as he pleases, to make both enjoyable and harmless. Here we are actually dealing with a debasement of the human body: no longer is it integrated into our overall existential freedom; no longer is it a vital expression of our whole being, but it is more or less relegated to the purely biological sphere. The apparent exaltation of the body can quickly turn into a hatred of bodiliness. Christian faith, on the other hand, has always considered man a unity in duality, a reality in which spirit and matter compenetrate, and in which each is brought to a new nobility. True, eros tends to rise “in ecstasy” towards the Divine, to lead us beyond ourselves; yet for this very reason it calls for a path of ascent, renunciation, purification and healing.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html#_ftn13

m.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-theology-of-the-body-pope-john-paul-ii/1116872973?ean=9780819873941

christopherwest.com/category/blog/sexuality/
 
Feces is never sterile it is always full of bacteria. Urinary tract infections are usually caused by bacteria that live in the large intestine. Women have shorter urethra than men which is why it is more common in women than men. Urinary tract infections are no picnic.
Sadly urology has recently discovered that urine is mostly not sterile.

medscape.com/viewarticle/762048

Apparently, we have a mix of good and bad bacteria in the bladder, just as in the stomach. Infections occur when the bad bacteria start to dominate.

Nothing to do with this thread of course, but if anyone wants to chat about bladder probs, feel free to pm me. 🙂
 
I might not be particularly interested in something another poster is talking about when it comes to sexuality. OK. Is it violating what the Catechism teaches? No? Well then I should probably say something like “well it’s not what I fancy, but I see no objection by the Magesterium,” or I should just say nothing.
You surely can’t measure your behaviour only by what is addressed by the Magisterium. Everything else being down to personal choice?

This is a sad sympton of the individualistic, me, me, me society. Love of our neighbour is most universally demonstrated by sensitivity to ‘the common good’ of man. This means that we factor into our behaviours and beliefs, how something affects the species as a whole. We value taboos even if they aren’t specifically addressed by the Church, because they promote a standard that is ensured to safeguard civilisation. Not just ourselves and our own children but the generations to come that we will never know and the remote cultures even though we don’t know them.

To that end with regard to matters of hygeine, we submit to taboos and we strongly urge others to as well. For example, there are signs up around the place that urge people to wash their hands after toileting that have a genuine authority based on regard for the common good. The catechism doesn’t address handwashing but that doesn’t mean that this general rule has zero authority and is subject to personal choice. We are gifted with the capacity for free will. We may never be held accountable or suffer consequences for some actions we choose in this life, but we will be judged for our poor regard for the common good. Likewise, anal penetration and oral foreplay may not bring you personal consequences, but the fact that things like the new phenomenon of throat cancer attributed to oral sex have emerged is due to eah of us who has contributed to the breakdown of that taboo, for example. Our regard for the common good demonstrates the love of neighbour that Jesus called for in Matthew 25 31-46.

Woe betide us all when we abandon taboos and say everyone can do what you like if it isn’t mentioned in the Catechism.
 
I believe any sexual act is permitted between 2 consenting married couples as long as no one gets hurt.
 
Sadly urology has recently discovered that urine is mostly not sterile.

medscape.com/viewarticle/762048

Apparently, we have a mix of good and bad bacteria in the bladder, just as in the stomach. Infections occur when the bad bacteria start to dominate.

Nothing to do with this thread of course, but if anyone wants to chat about bladder probs, feel free to pm me. 🙂
I work in the microbiology dept. in a hospital lab, and read hundreds of urine cultures every day.

Your statement above is news to me.

But when I click the link, it won’t let me view the article unless I put in some kind of password/id.

So can you somehow fix that? Make the article available to us?

I’m truly curious to see this, because honestly, we expect normal urine cultures to be “No Growth” because urine is sterile. Sometimes junky bacteria grows due to contamination from the perineal area (it’s messy down there!). And of course, those with infections grow the usual gang of bacteria (Ecoli, Staph sapro, Enterococcus, Kleb, etc.).

Thanks!
 
You surely can’t measure your behaviour only by what is addressed by the Magisterium. Everything else being down to personal choice?

This is a sad sympton of the individualistic, me, me, me society. Love of our neighbour is most universally demonstrated by sensitivity to ‘the common good’ of man. This means that we factor into our behaviours and beliefs, how something affects the species as a whole. We value taboos even if they aren’t specifically addressed by the Church, because they promote a standard that is ensured to safeguard civilisation. Not just ourselves and our own children but the generations to come that we will never know and the remote cultures even though we don’t know them.

To that end with regard to matters of hygeine, we submit to taboos and we strongly urge others to as well. For example, there are signs up around the place that urge people to wash their hands after toileting that have a genuine authority based on regard for the common good. The catechism doesn’t address handwashing but that doesn’t mean that this general rule has zero authority and is subject to personal choice. We are gifted with the capacity for free will. We may never be held accountable or suffer consequences for some actions we choose in this life, but we will be judged for our poor regard for the common good. Likewise, anal penetration and oral foreplay may not bring you personal consequences, but the fact that things like the new phenomenon of throat cancer attributed to oral sex have emerged is due to eah of us who has contributed to the breakdown of that taboo, for example. Our regard for the common good demonstrates the love of neighbour that Jesus called for in Matthew 25 31-46.

Woe betide us all when we abandon taboos and say everyone can do what you like if it isn’t mentioned in the Catechism.
Oral stimulation of genitals does NOT cause throat cancer, when practiced by spouses who are free of STDs. HPV is the main culprit for causing throat cancer. If two people practice chastity, marry as virgins, and remain faithful, there is NO chance of contracting an STD (specifically HPV) that would cause cancer.
Look, fellatio to completion is forbidden. We all know this. But orally pleasuring one’s spouse is NOT forbidden. We are allowed to use a variety of intimate kisses (enough detail to keep the post PG-13) anywhere that it pleases our spouse. Whatever preferences one has should be honored by one’s own spouse, but is NOT binding IN ANY WAY on any other couple. Similarly, whatever caresses and intimate touches please our spouse, we are permitted to use them. There is no part of a spouse’s body that is inherently untouchable.
We are merely not permitted to do things in place of a marital act, or anything that debases (insults the dignity of) our spouse. During foreplay, coitus, and afterplay, we are permitted to pleasure our spouses with the touches of our hands, the kisses of our mouths, and any other such bodily contact.
A monogamous chaste couple who enjoys oral-genital contact in their lovemaking poses NO threat to society and violates NO generally-accepted societal taboos, and furthermore does NOT sin and does NOT endanger their own health.
 
People have acquired a heightened appetite for oral & anal sex because they’ve been taught to want it, especially through pornography. It is psychologically arousing in its bolder eroticism and the way it puts a person in a highly dominate or submissive position. I reached a point where vaginal sex was boring compared to oral sex, and I’m still undergoing the arduous process of detoxing and reprogramming myself back to my factory default settings.

There is no rule that says oral & anal foreplay is not allowed prior to the husband climaxing in his wife, but I personally doubt that it makes the world a better place. Happiness is elusive because it is mindbogglingly simple to acquire. There is currently a trend in Japan where youth will lick each others’ eyeballs as a form of eroticism. What does this story tell us? The deeper you go into eroticism, the more demanding you become, and the less you are able to be satisfied by allegedly more boring practices. It is analogous to how a person who constantly eats fast food will find more plain foods less appetizing, because their body has become acclimated to the high fat & salt content.
 
Oral stimulation of genitals does NOT cause throat cancer, when practiced by spouses who are free of STDs. HPV is the main culprit for causing throat cancer. If two people practice chastity, marry as virgins, and remain faithful, there is NO chance of contracting an STD (specifically HPV) that would cause cancer.
Look, fellatio to completion is forbidden. We all know this. But orally pleasuring one’s spouse is NOT forbidden. We are allowed to use a variety of intimate kisses (enough detail to keep the post PG-13) anywhere that it pleases our spouse. Whatever preferences one has should be honored by one’s own spouse, but is NOT binding IN ANY WAY on any other couple. Similarly, whatever caresses and intimate touches please our spouse, we are permitted to use them. There is no part of a spouse’s body that is inherently untouchable.
We are merely not permitted to do things in place of a marital act, or anything that debases (insults the dignity of) our spouse. During foreplay, coitus, and afterplay, we are permitted to pleasure our spouses with the touches of our hands, the kisses of our mouths, and any other such bodily contact.
A monogamous chaste couple who enjoys oral-genital contact in their lovemaking poses NO threat to society and violates NO generally-accepted societal taboos, and furthermore does NOT sin and does NOT endanger their own health.
Do you accept that general taboos have an important and authoritative place in society that is tied to the common good of all? For example, the general rule of handwashing or the general rule of not eating raw meat, or the general rule of not sharing toothbrushes.

None of these is addressed by the Magisterium and of course people can choose not to follow those general rules and may even be forced to break the general rule out of necessity if there is no other choice. But to take a position of ideological opposition to the general rule itself as being wrong or irrelevant or an offense against the individuals right to choose… is a sympton of secularism. It is only in recent times that oral and anal sex have become mainstream sexual behaviours. Many young people who haven’t had strong moral grounding aren’t even aware that these acts were ever considered unnatural. They are groomed by the anything goes society we live in, to enjoy what was once considered taboo on many levels. ‘Grooming’ is a well know factor in suppressing the humans sensitivity to moral truth.

As a general rule, oral and anal penetration are an unnatural bodily union and have already contributed to the weakening of societies biological and moral immune system. Of course people can choose to do whatever they like behind the closed doors of their own house, but to then promote those standards are acceptable societal standards is selfish and irresponsible and a rejection of the notion of a common good of all.
 
I work in the microbiology dept. in a hospital lab, and read hundreds of urine cultures every day.

Your statement above is news to me.

But when I click the link, it won’t let me view the article unless I put in some kind of password/id.

So can you somehow fix that? Make the article available to us?

I’m truly curious to see this, because honestly, we expect normal urine cultures to be “No Growth” because urine is sterile. Sometimes junky bacteria grows due to contamination from the perineal area (it’s messy down there!). And of course, those with infections grow the usual gang of bacteria (Ecoli, Staph sapro, Enterococcus, Kleb, etc.).

Thanks!
Hello Cat

I’m not sure why the link won’t work. It works when I click on it, so here it is again: medscape.com/viewarticle/762048. “Urine is Not Sterile, PCR Analysis Shows” is the title and it is on Medscape, so maybe googling the title will take you to the link if that doesn’t work. There are also various other articles on this subject on pubmed.

There is one particular urologist in the UK whose entire work is based on the idea of urine not being sterile, and he has utilised what are called sediment cultures to identify bacteria. He particularly works with chronic UTI patients, and over 20 years he has found that his patients do in fact have bacteria. It’s just that this bacteria is not picked up by agar plating. He (and other experts in the field) feel that agar plating is not the ideal medium for urine culturing, since urine is a liquid and this is where the bacteria are growing. These doctors have isolated bacteria by sediment, PCR analyis and broth culturing and will be pursuing large scale studies on these topics over the next decade. These doctors have had tremendous success, often taking patients who were disabled/housebound and bringing them back to health. He now sees patients from all over the world. His specialty is chronic UTIS.

Scott Hultgren has also been doing some amazing work on biofilms in the bladder news.wustl.edu/people/Pages/HultgrenScott.aspx. The biofilm theory makes a lot of sense in terms of chronic UTIs, and I know Randall Wolcott (one of the leading global experts in biofilms) states that agar plating is not accurate at picking up biofilms, but that most chronic infections are in fact biofilms. bacteriality.com/2008/04/13/wolcott/

Of course, this is all debated in the urology community, but the fact is that these doctors’ work has effectively treated those with chronic UTIs, whereas most urologists have never found an effective treatment for chronic UTIs/IC. It’s a whole rabbithole…
 
Do you accept that general taboos have an important and authoritative place in society that is tied to the common good of all? For example, the general rule of handwashing or the general rule of not eating raw meat, or the general rule of not sharing toothbrushes.

None of these is addressed by the Magisterium and of course people can choose not to follow those general rules and may even be forced to break the general rule out of necessity if there is no other choice. But to take a position of ideological opposition to the general rule itself as being wrong or irrelevant or an offense against the individuals right to choose… is a sympton of secularism. It is only in recent times that oral and anal sex have become mainstream sexual behaviours. Many young people who haven’t had strong moral grounding aren’t even aware that these acts were ever considered unnatural. They are groomed by the anything goes society we live in, to enjoy what was once considered taboo on many levels. ‘Grooming’ is a well know factor in suppressing the humans sensitivity to moral truth.

As a general rule, oral and anal penetration are an unnatural bodily union and have already contributed to the weakening of societies biological and moral immune system. Of course people can choose to do whatever they like behind the closed doors of their own house, but to then promote those standards are acceptable societal standards is selfish and irresponsible and a rejection of the notion of a common good of all.
Jesus was rebuked because His disciples did not wash their hands before eating. His response should be our own as well, when we confront questions of hygiene.
Eating steak tartar (raw) is not dangerous if we know that the steer was properly raised and butchered. Eating raw fish happens every single day around the world.
I lent my daughter my toothbrush while on vacation when she lost her own.
So, as you rightly pointed out, there is the general rule, and then there are exceptions, even necessary exceptions, where it is acceptable to ignore a rule.
Societal taboos change with time, place, culture, etc. They are not universal or static. They usually serve a purpose for the common good of everyone. In the case of sexual taboos, any that are dependent upon hygiene will fall out of common knowledge when daily hygiene standards increase. We have seen a dramatic and historic change in hygiene standards in the 19th and 20th centuries. We have indoor plumbing, toilets instead of chamber pots, hot water for frequent bathing, all kinds of inexpensive soaps, cleansers, lotions, perfumes. We have flushable toilet paper, even wet and lightly scented flushable wipes! Our hineys have never been so clean and fresh, in all the history of humanity! So, the concern of trace amounts of urine or fecal matter is easily addressed with a quick hop in the shower. Problem solved.
With respect to taboos associated with STD transmission, and the secondary diseases that may result, I stand by what I said before. For a previously chaste, totally monogamous couple, those taboos DO NOT APPLY. It is simply not applicable to such a couple. The secular world argues for safer sex (condoms) and birth control. The Church teaches chastity and fidelity. If a couple sides with the Church all their lives, then those social taboos related to public health and STDs and whatnot simply have zero binding on said couple. For instance, the world argues for condoms to reduce the chances of STD transmission. But the Catholic couple knows condoms are forbidden. If we are free from such general rules BECAUSE of chastity, then we are free from them all BECAUSE of chastity. That is the freedom that chastity offers. You are free to kiss or touch all of your spouse’s body directly, with no physical barrier, and there are no off-limits areas.
Now, with all of what I say, I acknowledge and embrace the Church’s teaching that fellatio to completion is off-limits, as is anal sex. But the Church does NOT say that oral-genital contact is immoral, or that one spouse may not touch the other on their bottom. I am not arguing for either completed fellatio or anal sex. They are both a substitution for the holy marital act, and are therefore wrong, all hygiene issues aside. But we cannot extrapolate and say that, therefore, no mouth on genitals and no hands near the bottom. Furthermore, many good examination of consciences list oral sex and anal sex as mortal sins, but are careful to say immediately following that oral stimulation is permitted as foreplay. So, there you go. It is not that genitals and hineys are gross or dirty. We are simply not permitted to perform sexual acts INSTEAD OF coitus, but those body parts are not therefore untouchable or unkissable.

So, to summarize: taboos have their place, but have lots of exceptions to the general rule, and are very dependent of time, place, persons, culture. And what the Church does not see fit to forbid, neither may we usurp Her authority to forbid. I think the Church is very clear about the proper ends of sexual relations, and the holiness of the marital act, and the boundaries within which the Catholic couple may act. If we try to bind the conscience of others beyond what the Church herself does, it is our sin, not the couple who is acting within the freedom the Church provides.
Every married couple must discern for themselves what actions feel loving and holy and pleasing. They each have their own way of kissing and caressing and positions for coitus and things they love about each other’s bodies. It is different for every single couple. So, if you don’t like something or don’t want to do it, then of course, don’t do it. But please do not assume that your aversion equals a moral prohibition, because it doesn’t. (Remember, I am not talking about what the Church already prohibits, such as fellatio or anal sex.)
 
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