The Masons

[1AugustSon7]

Don’t worry, Mason’s don’t recruit. You have to initiate the conversation with a Mason, and you specifically have to ask without prompting.

False. My uncle was subjected to Masonic propaganda at a car dealership he worked for to the point where he began to feel that it would have been important for his career to become a Mason; that may not have been the case (he is an excellent salesman) but he was certainly made to at least feel that way.

My grandfather was forced by my great-grandather into the lodge.

I have no reason to believe, then, what you just said, which is rather to my original point.

Without belaboring your polemics,

Thank-you for repeating the proof of my original point: your amoral apologetic habit. Please, keep providing proof for what I concluded: that Masonry initiates a corruption of the soul and results in moral anarchy.

My entire life experience with dealing with Masons lead me to conclude that all of them spend a great deal of time swimming with all their heart and might up and down a certain river in Egypt.

there are certain parts (most) of the Masonic ritual where you are an actor in a play.

Subjective opinion. The fact that there is no audience and the contents are even supposed to be kept secret on pain of death explodes the ridiculousness of your claim here. Now most Catholic ritual actually does include an audience or spectators and even invites and welcomes it: is Catholic ritual (e.g., Baptism, Confirmation or Matrimony) then but a play wherein the participants are but actors? After all, the analogy to a play is at least reasonable in this case; and if it is at all true, well, then that’s welcome news to all Catholic apostates and adulterers- " 'twas but a game, hun: those vows were but poetic license pronounced for the amusement of the profane crowds."

To take the blood oaths as serious is nuts,

No. Nuts is not taking grusome and murderous oaths seriously - even if it were but playing, we naturally have a certain fear of them by instinct. I assure you there is no shortage of people in this world inclined to demand them from people seriously, and to also actually take them seriously. Only Masory can be the reason why people today might be so stupid to imagine that a blood oath pronounced in a solemn ritual conducted by adults would necessarily be a form of amusement.

especially as a candidate in the ritual you are told beforehand that the blood oaths are emblematic of trust and certainly not literal.

Now that’s an instance of poetic license: “Don’t worry! It doesn’t mean what it is so clearly meant to mean. Now take off your profane articles - that blest cross your wearing and also that wedding ring.”

 

[TexanKnight]

not sure if it was mentioned, but Joseph Smith plagiarized the Masonic Ceremony to form his Mormon temple ceremony. That is how anti-Catholic it is.

 

[ffg]

This might be the most interesting one…

Harmon R. Taylor GRAND LODGE FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK GRAND CHAPLAIN 1983-1984

cuttingedge.org/free004.html

Letter to his Lodge’s explaining his reasons to leave.

Interesting stuff.

 

[1AugustSon7]

not sure if it was mentioned, but Joseph Smith plagiarized the Masonic Ceremony to form his Mormon temple ceremony. That is how anti-Catholic it is.

I have to question your reasoning here: J. Smith lived in a time and milieu that was practically devoid of all or any Catholicism, except for the typical English animosity -even enmity- derived from deliberate government (carried across the pond from England) propaganda meant to accomplish just that; I mean, Smith is unlikely to have had a specifically anti-Catholic motive for his plagiarizing of Masonic ritual: Catholicism was nothing like a religious or cultural threat. It was an Orwellian boogeyman.

But as we are on the topic, that fact has ever availed me of silencing Mormon missionary efforts: Okay, okay; question, though: if Mr. Smith was God’s prophet, how come he needed to join a secret society that promoted itself as a source of philosophical enlightenment and investigation into truth? Why didn’t God just tell him whatever he might have needed to learn in or from Masonry? What knowledge can a prophet truly want for? Or are you saying God ordered Smith into the lodge and, if so, what does that imply? Should we all become Masons, then - at least good Mormon men, following the prophet’s example? Etc.

 

[TexanKnight]

I have to question your reasoning here: J. Smith lived in a time and milieu that was practically devoid of all or any Catholicism, except for the typical English animosity -even enmity- derived from deliberate government (carried across the pond from England) propaganda meant to accomplish just that; I mean, Smith is unlikely to have had a specifically anti-Catholic motive for his plagiarizing of Masonic ritual: Catholicism was nothing like a religious or cultural threat. It was an Orwellian boogeyman.

But as we are on the topic, that fact has ever availed me of silencing Mormon missionary efforts: Okay, okay; question, though: if Mr. Smith was God’s prophet, how come he needed to join a secret society that promoted itself as a source of philosophical enlightenment and investigation into truth? Why didn’t God just tell him whatever he might have needed to learn in or from Masonry? What knowledge can a prophet truly want for? Or are you saying God ordered Smith into the lodge and, if so, what does that imply? Should we all become Masons, then - at least good Mormon men, following the prophet’s example? Etc.

not true. In fact, the temple ceremony showed a Catholic Priest as an agent of Satan. A Mormon Apostle called the Catholic Church the “Great and Abominable Church” The LDS Church was VERY anti-Catholic

 

[1AugustSon7]

This might be the most interesting one…

Harmon R. Taylor GRAND LODGE FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK GRAND CHAPLAIN 1983-1984

cuttingedge.org/free004.html

Letter to his Lodge’s explaining his reasons to leave.

Interesting stuff.

Well, that site does the testimony given a disservice by subordinating it to a conspiracy theory, of which there are as many varieties as there are individuals who espouse them.

I submit that Masonry is not actually an effectual system to accomplish some grand, perennial scheme or arrangement, at least certainly not the stuff that makes for juicy conscpiracy theory: I submit -and see my previous posts here and on the previous ‘page’ of this thread, and on the first or second also- that Masonry is meant to accomplish what it manifestly an usually does accomplish: a corruption of the soul, specifically our human virtues. The rest is but glitter and distraction; once a man can poo-poo a blood oath he has been effectively morally corrupted. Job done at stage 1. That’s “the conspiracy”.

 

[1AugustSon7]

not true. In fact, the temple ceremony showed a Catholic Priest as an agent of Satan. A Mormon Apostle called the Catholic Church the “Great and Abominable Church” The LDS Church was VERY anti-Catholic

Every good English American was, and largely believed the same drivel.

There is no innovation here; consequently, I don’t believe it can really serve as proof of a really, specifically and seriously anti-Catholic motivation and indoctrination; if that were the case, a more contemporary and cunning stratagem would have been employed - it would not have used the same, typical fundamentalist Protestant and English government propaganda (smarter because it more or less only ever implied things) that Catholics had no difficulty exposing (even then) the absurdity of.

 

[TexanKnight]

Every good English American was, and largely believed the same drivel.

There is no innovation here; consequently, I don’t believe it can really serve as proof of a really, specifically and seriously anti-Catholic motivation and indoctrination; if that were the case, a more contemporary and cunning stratagem would have been employed - it would not have used the same, typical fundamentalist Protestant and English government propaganda (smarter because it more or less only ever implied things) that Catholics had no difficulty exposing (even then) the absurdity of.

Ok…I guess showing a Catholic Priest as an agent of Satan is not anti-Catholic.

I will have to adjust my thinking on this. I always believed that showing a person as an agent of Satan was bad. Thank you.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Ok…I guess showing a Catholic Priest as an agent of Satan is not anti-Catholic.

I will have to adjust my thinking on this. I always believed that showing a person as an agent of Satan was bad. Thank you.

I am very sorry! I was too forcefull in my approach: my meaning was not that such things are not evidence of anti-Catholicism at work, but, rather, that it was not animated by a more real and dangerous hatred of Catholicism or something different than what one would typically expect at the time.

My point is an Englishman - or rather, American - would not be scandalized, e.g., by seeing the Pope burned in effagy or surprised to hear someone call him Satan incarnate, even. That was typical; my meaning, moreover, is that what Smith set-up was rather typical of his time and was probably thought of as a prop or proof for claiming or showing Mormonism to be authentically English/American; “after all,” a Mormon could say to his suspicious contemporaries, “we detest Catholics just like you do!” That was standard English mainstream piety for a long time. It seems more likely to me that those rituals probably saw as the greater prize not so much imbibing a more effective calumny and hatred of Catholicism - that was aleady there in the default cultural setting - but a celebration of it, a continuation and stamp or approval or it, which made Mormonism, as it were, uber-pious - uber-Protestant American and eligible for membership in the good ol’ boys club. All that was needed were curses on Frenchmen and Spaniards, and - voila! - we have confirmed a “good Christian” and a “good Englishman”.

These rituals show rather Smith’s atypical ignorance of Catholicism - exactly because Catholicism was so totally foreign to the cultural mind and milieu of America at the time.

 

[TexanKnight]

I am very sorry! I was too forcefull in my approach: my meaning was not that such things are not evidence of anti-Catholicism at work, but, rather, that it was not animated by a more real and dangerous hatred of Catholicism or something different than what one would typically expect at the time.

My point is an Englishman - or rather, American - would not be scandalized, e.g., by seeing the Pope burned in effagy or surprised to hear someone call him Satan incarnate, even. That was typical; my meaning, moreover, is that what Smith set-up was rather typical of his time and was probably thought of as a prop or proof for claiming or showing Mormonism to be authentically English/American; “after all,” a Mormon could say to his suspicious contemporaries, “we detest Catholics just like you do!” That was standard English mainstream piety for a long time. It seems more likely to me that those rituals probably saw as the greater prize not so much imbibing a more effective calumny and hatred of Catholicism - that was aleady there in the default cultural setting - but a celebration of it, a continuation and stamp or approval or it, which made Mormonism, as it were, uber-pious - uber-Protestant American and eligible for membership in the good ol’ boys club. All that was needed were curses on Frenchmen and Spaniards, and - voila! - we have confirmed a “good Christian” and a “good Englishman”.

These rituals show rather Smith’s atypical ignorance of Catholicism - exactly because Catholicism was so totally foreign to the cultural mind and milieu of America at the time.

While possible it was foreign to the average American, as a former Mormon, I can say that Smith was very anti-Catholic. But, that is just my opinion based on my studies as a Mormon

 

[ffg]

Well, that site does the testimony given a disservice by subordinating it to a conspiracy theory, of which there are as many varieties as there are individuals who espouse them.

I submit that Masonry is not actually an effectual system to accomplish some grand, perennial scheme or arrangement, at least certainly not the stuff that makes for juicy conscpiracy theory: I submit -and see my previous posts here and on the previous ‘page’ of this thread, and on the first or second also- that Masonry is meant to accomplish what it manifestly an usually does accomplish: a corruption of the soul, specifically our human virtues. The rest is but glitter and distraction; once a man can poo-poo a blood oath he has been effectively morally corrupted. Job done at stage 1. That’s “the conspiracy”.

I thought it was an interesting letter from a Master Mason to his Brothers. I didn’t see a big conspiracy theory. There were multiple well reasoned and referenced points. He was trying to help his Brothers see what he has finally seen.

The corruption of the soul is the point. I don’t care about the secrets, it’s the souls.

 

[1AugustSon7]

I thought it was an interesting letter from a Master Mason to his Brothers. I didn’t see a big conspiracy theory. There were multiple well reasoned and referenced points. He was trying to help his Brothers see what he has finally seen.

The corruption of the soul is the point. I don’t care about the secrets, it’s the souls.

Oh yes the letter wasn’t the issue: it’s the site that places in within the context of a pet conspiracy theory.

But reading the letter I find some problems with his reasons for leaving the lodge.

[Freemasonry] holds that there are many paths that lead to the throne of the all-loving father which all start from a common source. Freemasonry believes, according to Ward, "that though these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to other, another.
This isn’t that bad: the author of the letter seems to believe (and he might well know) that in context this is what we Catholics would call religious indifference; however, I don’t think that is necessarily so. There’s a reason why this particular Masonic idea, doctrine, belief or whatever sounds appealing: it’s at least a half-truth.

A Catholic believes much the same thing, because it’s so obvious: some people convert to Catholicism because they stumbled across something in their lives (e.g., a major event - or even a minor, trivial one that, when considered, spoke volumes- something a child happened to say, for instance) or something discovered or realized in their professional field or occuptational work: the point being that all truth has a certain unity and unifying force to it that converges and leads to the one ultimate truth, though even He is perceived differently by each individual; however, we are talking about One, actual Being.
Consider also that, in Catholicism, we believe there are many and various states that individuals are called to by God to live: e.g., the married state, a state of consecrated virginity or the religious life. Moreover, Catholics are very varied in what it is in or about Catholic belief and life that draws them closer or closest to God: for the mystic, one way; the theologian, another; the prayer warrior, etc. All of these are legitimate “paths” but each is very different; it would be, I think, semantics to argue that these don’t constitute different “paths” to God. Ergo, even in Catholicism there are many paths.

Freemasonry is no different than so many heresies: it adheres erroneously to certain truths, and faithfully to certain errors: its a hodge-podge. When we criticize Freemasonry or different religions, we should remember that human beings can scarcely believe outright errors because the human mind is made to receive, to hold truth: it is frequently a delicate exercize in seperating babies from the bathwater; and it is all-too easy in this area to mistake babies for bathwater.

Freemasonry professes, e.g., an erroneous kind of universalism, much of which is appealing because -at least on the idealistic level- it is perfectly good: universal brotherhood, brotherly love, concord, truth, philanthropy and good-will, and so many other things. What’s usually erroneous is how it tries or hopes to achieve or facilitate those things- for most Christians, it’s an impossible compromise vis-a-vis their faith or belief in Christ- otherwise Freemasonry more, from my experience, falls afoul of morals or virtue quite irrespective of its idealism or doctrines. I mean, the difficult work of seperating carefully truth from error is a redundant and secondary one when Masonry can be shown systematically falls afoul of basic morals, and even perverts them outright: i.e., breeds vice. The breeding of vice in society is, even for the pagan statesman (e.g., someone like Cicero), sufficient grounds for public censure and possibly worse, because moral vice is the death of every society, every country- far worse and more dangerous than any disease or the plague. It is not always so much what Masons or Masonry believes, as what Masons do and Freemasonry asks or encourages them to do - at least in my opinion.

 

[ffg]

This was an interesting personal history of the view of a Husband and Wife about the journey in and out of the Masons.

emfj.org/hilton.htm

 

[teeboy]

I had to deal with one who was a state licensed counselor. I knew he was a mason after he shook my hand.

It’s ashamed they practice their trade when operating under the state constitution.

Apparently they enjoy playing mind games.

Conspiracy seems to be their trade.

Childishness.

 

[Elizium23]

I attend mass every Sunday, Holy Day, and several weekday masses and I see Masons in there every single time. Are they violating Church edicts? Yes. The same as the person suffering after an abortion, the same as the woman taking birth control pills or getting her tubes tied, and the same as the K of C members buying condoms at the local drug store. I know for a fact that the parish council member that is an OB/GYN prescribes birth control and yet they serve the parish zealously.

I do not know your point in comparing yourself and other Catholic Masons to others who are living a life of manifest, obstinate and grave sin. Let me assure you that there are also many who attend Mass on a regular basis, and also frequent the sacrament of Confession, who are faithful Catholics who obey the Church, believe what she believes, and practice what they preach. Yes, they may fall into the occasional state of mortal sin, but they are not living a lie. If they continue on this righteous path they will be assured salvation and a place in Our Heavenly Father’s kingdom. Those who do choose to defy the Church and God may not get their just desserts in this life, but surely in the next they will meet judgement.

For me personally, being a member of the Knights of Columbus has helped me to become a better Christian and a better man. It has improved my contributions to the community in many ways. It has prepared me better to be a future husband and father. I have fellowship with brother Knights who assuredly are not Masons and are not contributing to causes which seek to undermine the very Church we love. As for those who do, I pray for them and it is unfortunate, but we have learned to expect evil and injustice in this fallen world as we look forward to our reward in Heaven.

 

[ess1113a]

I do not know your point in comparing yourself and other Catholic Masons to others who are living a life of manifest, obstinate and grave sin. Let me assure you that there are also many who attend Mass on a regular basis, and also frequent the sacrament of Confession, who are faithful Catholics who obey the Church, believe what she believes, and practice what they preach. Yes, they may fall into the occasional state of mortal sin, but they are not living a lie. If they continue on this righteous path they will be assured salvation and a place in Our Heavenly Father’s kingdom. Those who do choose to defy the Church and God may not get their just desserts in this life, but surely in the next they will meet judgement.

For me personally, being a member of the Knights of Columbus has helped me to become a better Christian and a better man. It has improved my contributions to the community in many ways. It has prepared me better to be a future husband and father. I have fellowship with brother Knights who assuredly are not Masons and are not contributing to causes which seek to undermine the very Church we love. As for those who do, I pray for them and it is unfortunate, but we have learned to expect evil and injustice in this fallen world as we look forward to our reward in Heaven.

For me personally, being a Freemason has helped me to become a better Christian and a better man. It has improved my contributions to the community in many ways. It has prepared me better to be a future husband and father. I have fellowship with brother Masons who assuredly are not Knights and are not contributing to causes which seek to undermine the very Church we love. As for those who do, I pray for them and it is unfortunate, but we have learned to expect evil and injustice in this fallen world as we look forward to our reward in Heaven.

Made some slight changes and applied them and totally and completely agree. Amazing how your statement with two word changes applies to me as well. Maybe you just illustrated how much we really have in common.

 

[ffg]

An older forum thread link with the details of the Church’s position.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=242753

 

[Michael42]

There is such thing as poetic license. Keep in mind, you’re putting more stock in Freemasonry that even I do as a member - it’s a fraternity and nothing more.

I’m sure there’s Masons that take the “blood-oath” seriously, but we would have to call them crazy.

But let’s say I’m not correct, we can test this. I’ll go ahead and test this blood oath by ‘exposing’ a Masonic ‘secret’ word: “Tubal Cain”

If I get murdered in the next few days at low tide with my throat slit, I’ll tell you.

Do you know the meaning of Tubal Cain? If you do then you will know why the Church frowns on the Masons and you can start to appreciate why the Masons have taken the course they have. The Masons (albeit at a very high level) have the knowledge and know-how to trigger the Tribulation which is why the Church does its utmost to discredit them. It is damage limitations and politics at its rawest.

Did you know that the Masons have an active End of Days date? I wonder if they will keep to the prophecies and trigger the Tribulation or let bygones be bygones. Let’s hope it is the latter. Then maybe the Church will soften its stance and everyone can get on again, working together for the benefit of mankind.

 

[ess1113a]

Guess I should have been paying closer attention in the meetings.
The only dated we discussed were the monthly breakfast and the golf tournament.

Just remember that the Church condemned Galileo for his heliocentrism views and was ridiculed back in 1616. Labelled a heretic and a danger to the Holy Church.

On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Catholic Church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture 376 years of mistaken condemnation.

I wont be around to see it but I am certain that the Church will eventually come around and admit that Freemasonry is just a fraternity, nothing more sinister and nothing more dangerous than that.

 

[TEPO]

Do you know the meaning of Tubal Cain? If you do then you will know why the Church frowns on the Masons and you can start to appreciate why the Masons have taken the course they have. The Masons (albeit at a very high level) have the knowledge and know-how to trigger the Tribulation which is why the Church does its utmost to discredit them. It is damage limitations and politics at its rawest.

Did you know that the Masons have an active End of Days date? I wonder if they will keep to the prophecies and trigger the Tribulation or let bygones be bygones. Let’s hope it is the latter. Then maybe the Church will soften its stance and everyone can get on again, working together for the benefit of mankind.

Tubal Cain seems to be some kind of giant spiritual entity…

---

"The dishonored artificer could not with draw himself from the scene of his discomfiture. Suddenly he heard a strange voice coming from above and crying, ‘Hiram, Hiram, Hiram;’ He raised his eyes and beheld a gigantic human figure. The apparition continued, Come, my son, be without fear, I have rendered thee incombustible, cast thyself into the flames.' Hiram threw himself into the furnace, and where others would have found death, he tasted ineffable delights nor could he, drawn by an irresistible force, leave it, and asked him that drew him into the abyss, Who art thou?’ I am the father of thy fathers,' was the answer, I am Tubal-Cain.’****

"Tubal-Cain introduced Hiram into the sanctuary of fire, and into the presence of Cain, to author of his race. When Hiram was about to be restored to earth, Tubal-Cain gave him the hammer with which he himself had wrought great things, and said to him, `Thanks to this hammer and the help of the genii of fire, thou shalt speedily accomplish the work left unfinished through man’s stupidity and malignity.’ Hiram did not hesitate to test the wonderful efficacy of the precious instrument, and the dawn saw the great mass of bronze cast. The artist felt the most lively joy. The Queen exulted.*"