The Masons

[ffg]

If someone comes up to me and says, “Ben, I’m concerned that you’re spending time in Masons” I’ll listen.

I think this is about right in how I would view my thought process and intent on the subject. Though I haven’t built the full argument as it’s a process in considering the dialogue, other commentary, as well as written docs, etc… I would hope that most would understand that time is taken to discuss because one cares. I guess with this internet thing, it can be used to just spew and run, but at least in this site, you’ll have some backup of like minds, if not for like tone’s, that can carry the bag.

I’m looking at this subject from a 10,000 foot view, I’m not going to quote here or there necessarily to prove this or that point. The great gift of common sense can always be used to navigate the waters and determine the right path.

Getting back to where we left off, - “Worshipful Master” and I’m sure other names, words and terms. You can tell me it’s ancient origin until you are blue in the face, because that’s what someone told you.

I can also tell you that the sky is green, in the city boundry of greenville, USA and give you a historical context.

Considering this, I do not think ‘Master’ is refering to a title alone when the subject is the person holding said title. Worshipful might be an old word or greeting for ‘judge’ as in ‘your honor’, but if that is the case and reason you think you use it the way you do in the lodge, you would not need to add ‘Master’ as ‘your Worshipful’ would be the similarity.

The title of the person is “Master” and he is Worshipful, in the eyes of the serious intent of the greeting. Playing games with definitions and describing origins, doesn’t change the intent.

Perhaps, only in the play, but I’ve already stated why it’s not a play, due to intent.

With regard to religion / the hospitals, etc. being an important part of the group / promoted, I see this in the same light that the garbage and recycling in the US (and possibly throughout the world) are important parts of the Mafia and Mob.

Having a front of a generally acceptable good that helps society is always in the plans and actions of an organization that wants to keep the eyes off the inside business. This is a classic case and maybe the blueprint for the above couple groups.

You could even relate this to the Catholic Church in all the good things it’s done over the years, yet has hidden some things that we learn about that are not good.

The difference - we are able to continue to research and conclude with certainty the intent and nature of the Church in whole. Recognizing it is filled with people and thus by nature will have people who make mistakes, big or small.

With the Mason’s, there is no concluding, as the ‘hidden’ does not want to be disclosed.

Why? Because what would be learned might not be good?

I guess a good thing to consider here - In general there isn’t a lot of good where there isn’t a lot of light. All men are sinful and most notably when unseen.

 

[benjohnson]

The title of the person is “Master” and he is Worshipful, in the eyes of the serious intent of the greeting. Playing games with definitions and describing origins, doesn’t change the intent.

I think though in order to be an effective anti-Mason, you have to understand what a Mason is talking about. If you come up to me and say “Worshipful Master” means you’re in a religious master/slave relationship, it won’t work, because my WM is a kindly guy named Bob, and I just spent last Saturday washing cars with him to donate the proceeds to the local children’s hospital.

So… even if you’re correct… you still have to understand the way Masons think in order to be effective.

With the Mason’s, there is no concluding, as the ‘hidden’ does not want to be disclosed.

Why? Because what would be learned might not be good?

I guess a good thing to consider here - In general there isn’t a lot of good where there isn’t a lot of light. All men are sinful and most notably when unseen.

That’s fair - I’d like to see the ritual opened up myself. Frankly, they should be accessible as they are a witness to the good morals and decency of a bygone era.

 

[Georgia]

If you watch some of the documentary programs, you will see pretty much anything you want about the Masons or about any other group for that matter. The secrecy, it seems to me, is only symbolic. If there were any real concern about secrets, the rituals would have been changed the first time a preacher had them on television.

 

[White_Tree]

If you watch some of the documentary programs, you will see pretty much anything you want about the Masons or about any other group for that matter. The secrecy, it seems to me, is only symbolic. If there were any real concern about secrets, the rituals would have been changed the first time a preacher had them on television.

You do not tamper with rituals.

What you have described would be tantamount to the Catholic Church changing the Baptismal formula, or the Words of Consecration.

 

[peace2u2]

I thought that if we were followers of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is our Master and the one that we Worship.

How can you serve 2 Masters? It sounds more like a conflict of interest.

 

[benjohnson]

How can you serve 2 Masters? It sounds more like a conflict of interest.

In the Masonic lodge there’s all sort of officers with silly names such as -“Grand Pursuivant” “Poet Laureate” and “Worshipful Master.” Wikipedia has a good explination:

“The honorific Worshipful does not suggest that the Master is worshiped, but is used in its original meaning, “worthy of respect”. (Mayors and magistrates in parts of England are also traditionally called “Worshipful” or “Your Worship”, as are certain bodies such as livery companies). French Masons use the word Vénérable as the honorific for their Masters.”

 

[ffg]

So I think we’ve beat this naming / phrasing convention bit to death. I don’t think it’s an avenue that would lead an “outsider” and an “insider” finding common ground due to definition games.

I’m sure Bob is a great guy doing great things in public, as you mentioned.

I do wonder if you would agree that how someone addresses you can very much have an effect on you, as well as the person making the greeting and anyone in earshot?

Further, how you are titled has a psychological effect on you and others.

I see people posture change immediately when they know the boss is around.

 

[TEPO]

What about Hiram Abiff, and Tubalcain…? Can we delve into uncovering their roles into Masonic plays at this point. Or should we keep quiet?

 

[Indifferently]

RCs just seem determined in this thread to find something wrong or evil about the Masons, almost like they decided Masonry was bad first and only then started looking for the evidence to back it up.

I see that sort of thing on this forum all the time, come to think of it.

 

[TEPO]

RCs just seem determined in this thread to find something wrong or evil about the Masons, almost like they decided Masonry was bad first and only then started looking for the evidence to back it up.

I see that sort of thing on this forum all the time, come to think of it.

I think Masons worship Hiram Abiff.

 

[KyivAndrew]

RCs just seem determined in this thread to find something wrong or evil about the Masons, almost like they decided Masonry was bad first and only then started looking for the evidence to back it up.

I see that sort of thing on this forum all the time, come to think of it.

Masons must choose lodge or church: Australian Anglican Synod:
smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/20/1066631355799.html

Heck, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams in a leaked private letter said that he “had real misgivings about the compatibility of Masonry and Christian profession” and that whilst Bishop of Monmouth he had prevented the appointment of Freemasons to senior positions within his diocese. Well, after that disclosure, Grand Lodge hit back hard and, as there are many Masons in England, it appears Williams, despite his profound feelings, had to backtrack on his original comments. I would suggest the following book, written not by some nutty preacher, but by Martin Short and reviewed positively by England’s premiere book reviewer The Times Literary Supplement:

amazon.com/Inside-Brotherhood-Explosive-Secrets-Freemasons/dp/0007334141

There you can study yourself some of the problems the Anglican Church has had with Freemasonry. And by the way, I don’t subscribe personally to any gobbledygook Masonic world conspiracy - that’s just warped - what with Freemasonry desperate for members and such suggestions being quite beyond the pale now. I just can’t see how a devout Christian can participate in some of the ceremonies in Masonry, particularly Exaltation to the Royal Arch where one learns the secret omnific name for God, and also the ceremonies in the Scottish rite. I can elaborate further on these issues if need be.

Nobody has anything against the good work Shriners do, but there are real misgivings about the rituals. One doesn’t have to give secret ceremonies for secret names of God, in order to be a charitable brotherhood.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Sorry by the way, for those not in the know, the Royal Arch Ceremony and the Scottish rite degrees do not belong the Blue Lodge (that is the first three Masonic Degrees), but to the extra Masonic bodies appendant to the blue lodge, be it the York Rite in which the Royal Arch Degree is bestowed, or the Scottish Rite which goes up to the 33rd Degree. Remarkably, with membership and extra-time hard to get, some Blue Lodges get angry if their membership and activity goes down if one leaves for the more time-consuming higher degrees, though many want to to get closer to the light, the Masonic Light which is promised to be found in the higher degrees.

In the first three degrees of Craft Masonry, the Mason is given a substitute word but it is only in the higher degree of the Exalted Royal Arch where one is given the Sacred Name for God. From the ceremony:

“As we three agree,
in peace, love and unity,
the sacred word to keep.
So we three do agree,
in peace, love and unity,
the sacred word to search.
Until we three,
or three such as we shall agree,
this Royal Arch Chapter to close.”

They then reveal, the original ‘sacred Omnific Word’ - ‘Jah-Bal-On.’

This is given in low breath and is performed three times by three lecturers, each taking turns to pronounce a name each:

(1) “Jah” (2) “Bal” (3) “On”
(2) “Jah” (3) “Bal” (1) “On”
(3) “Jah” (1) “Bal” (2) “On.”

The Royal Arch candidate is then told that “It is the name of Deity in three language, viz Chaldee, Hebrew and Syriac. Which is the long lost Master Mason’s Word, and has now become the Grand Omnific Royal Arch Word”. (Some ceremonies put Bul for Bal, given what Baal represented in the Bible).

The lecture explains of the above: "The names by which the Supreme Being was known to the three leading nations of antiquity, Chaldean, Syriac and Egyptian:

*1. Jah. the Chaldean name of God, and signifies, ‘His essence in Majesty - incomprehensible.’ It is also a Hebrew word, signifying, ‘I am and shall be’ thereby expressing the actual future and eternal existence of the Most High.
2. Bal. is a Syriac word which signifies ‘Lord or Powerful’ also ‘Lord in heaven or on high.’
3. On. is an Egyptian word signifying ‘Father of all’ as is expressed in the Lord’s prayer."
*

No Royal Arch Mason can pronounce this Omnific Word himself on pain of decapitation. I get that’s a ridiculous penalty not to be believed, but as for the ceremony, you actually would be surprised, as I have from personal experience, asking Royal Arch Masons to pronounce the name for God - JahBulon. I have seen grown men who aknowlege to me they are Royal Arch quite surprised when I utter this word and they refuse to even utter this word when I say Masonry is just fun and games with these secret ceremonies and names right? C’mon just say it. Indeed, in the Royal Arch degree, “Jah - Bul- On” can only be pronounced with one syllable by one person, the second by another, and the third another - the sacred and not substitute name for God cannot be uttered in its entirety by any Royal Arch Mason. If all this ritual is harmless, why go to such steps to prevent anyone mentioning the Sacred Masonic Name for God? And that was when I kind of realized that this whole Masonic ritual thing was not just some fun and games and dress-ups (as I originally opined) but that the Ritual itself was to be treated with all the seriousness in the world, just as much as the ritual of the Catholic Mass is.

Remarkably, Martin Short’s book mentions a show on English TV in which a top Mason, quite educated, was simply asked to utter the word Jahbulon and explain it. He chuckled, called it an “old chestnut” and went on to another topic.

Thereafter, attempts were made to convince the public that Jahbulon might be removed from the ceremony by Masons themselves seeing how the word itself, an amalgam of deities, some pagan, would come across. I have no idea how the Sacred Omnific Name has been changed, but to this day I can’t get a Royal Arch Mason to utter their God’s Sacred Name.

 

[anika001]

This could be a long thread

 

[ffg]

RCs just seem determined in this thread to find something wrong or evil about the Masons, almost like they decided Masonry was bad first and only then started looking for the evidence to back it up.

I see that sort of thing on this forum all the time, come to think of it.

This is quite wrong. I’m not looking for something to hang my hat on. I don’t need to prove anything about the subject to conclude it’s worth or danger, that’s for a person who still has the ability to think and is on the inside.

Ben seems to be a thoughtful person.

The subject matter is meaningless to me but save for some entertainment and good conversation. The PEOPLE personally involved in the subject matter are who I care about.

I’m simply trying to have a conversation about the subject and in that process looking for thoughtful responses, not simply the company line.

This helps one realize hopefully, it is ok to think.

People are not taught to think these days, just repeat.

With regard to your last line, take note of the name of the website. If it is not approved by the Church, that is all we need to know.

If the subject matter is interesting, we can dig, research and see why the Church has this stance. Like in this case, I’ve been reading straight from the horses mouth in the last few days, it’s been interesting, and also quite confirming.

Unfortunately, some of the links found on the site I posted are already down.

Take care,

 

[TEPO]

I want to talk about Hiram Abiff and Tubalcain.

 

[benjammin]

I’ve said it once and i’ll say it again to those Catholics, and really all christians who are masons. Why not join the Knights of Columbus if your catholic. We wear funny hats and have some secrets too Or if you’re not Catholic, join a club that isn’t as relativist (by this i mean it thinks all religions are equal and true) and still promotes charity. Masonry may be just a club, but I think it promotes religious indifference. Thats my main beef with it.

 

[Elizium23]

I am still waiting for an answer as to why Plutarco Elías Calles received a medal from the Masons during the Cristero War. That’s the persecution of Catholics that gained us many martyrs and got the Knights of Columbus to pressure the U.S. to join the fray on the side of the Cristeros. It appears to me that Calles was rewarded for his efforts to destroy the Church. Is there some kind of innocent excuse for that?

 

[TEPO]

I am still waiting for an answer as to why Plutarco Elías Calles received a medal from the Masons during the Cristero War. That’s the persecution of Catholics that gained us many martyrs and got the Knights of Columbus to pressure the U.S. to join the fray on the side of the Cristeros. It appears to me that Calles was rewarded for his efforts to destroy the Church. Is there some kind of innocent excuse for that?

Oh sure. He was only ‘fixing’ the world up a bit by planting seeds of agnosticism. Getting things to ‘work’ right.

 

[benjohnson]

It appears to me that Calles was rewarded for his efforts to destroy the Church. Is there some kind of innocent excuse for that?

No innocent excuse at all - some Masons are horrid evil people.

In particular, some of the "Lodges’ in continental Europe, South America and a few in Asia fully deserve any horrid reputation that may come their way.

Check our Lodge P2 in Italy for example - this is real, not just conspiracy wacko stuff:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

 

[ffg]

Good to see you are back. I thought we might have lost you Ben.

I wouldn’t put it past a sensitive Mason to login and message you to stop conversing. If this does happen, I hope you would see where your freedom lies (and doesn’t).

I need to go back and find the name of one person that seemed to be writing to his lodge’s about the Masonic Religion. I thought that was curious. It also made me think about how an altar is in the lodge. There are not many places where an altar exists without some kind of worship. Also, since a “Masonic Bible” exists, one could easily conclude religion. But I’m sure that isn’t mentioned much in the lower blue lodge’s.

Take care,