The Masons

[KyivAndrew]

I swore an oath of secrecy in the Knights of Columbus also. Not sure how that fits into your argument but it was sworn and it was serious.

Big difference. The Knights of Columbus requires a Fraternal Pledge, while Freemasonry imposes a Bloody Oath - there is a difference between the two.

In Freemasonry you are swearing by God to ritual self-mutilation (even if symbolic which is irrelevant if you invoke God) to keep a brother Mason’s secrets secret (barring murder and treason) and swearing just not to fool around with a brother Mason’s wife, mother, sister, or daughter.

In Freemasonry, unlike in the Knights of Columbus pledge, you are not even allowed to see beforehand what exactly you are swearing and binding yourself to beforehand. You are invoking God to witness your bloody oath even before you know what you’re swearing to in Freemasonry. Seems fair right?

For the 3rd Degree Master Mason oath in the Masonic Temple, you kneel on naked knees at the Masonic Altar blind-folded, bare-chested, legs and arms bare, with a cable tow rope tied three times around your waist. You’re kneeling half-naked in the middle of your Temple with a bunch of other grown men in aprons looking at you. At the end of oath (which oath is given by the Worshipful Master and which you as a candidate simply repeat) you repeat these words:

“All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steady resolution to perform the same, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind what-ever, binding myself, under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had of so vile and wicked a wretch as I would be, should I ever, knowingly, violate this my Master Mason’s obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.”

Your head is then lowered between the vesica piscis of the compass and square to kiss the Volume of Sacred Law on the altar. Finally you have the blindfold removed after the Worshipful Master asks “what do you most desire?” and the Conductor prompts you to say, “Further light in Masonry”.

You see above? You have just taken an oath by simply repeating what the Worshipful Master has told you to repeat after him, on the Bible, on pain of self-mutilation, with God as your witness. You weren’t even allowed to read beforehand what you were using God to bind yourself to, but simply repeated the Worshipful Master’s words like an automaton.

A candidate may think at this stage the ceremony is over, but no, then comes the whole pagan-inspired ceremony of ritual murder of the character the candidate enacts, Hiram Abiff, with the raising by King Solomon at the end of the dead Hiram Abiff. A raising which occurs because the candidate kept his Masonic secret in the ritual without disclosing it. It is secrecy which is the virtue being rewarded and enables Hiram’s raising from the dead by Solomon’s lion’s paw grip.

This is obviously different than what is in K of C, but at this point of the thread, I pretty well get it Ess: you love Freemasonry and you’re not really interested in listening to how it is incompatible with Catholicism which seems to only embitter you. People like you come on threads like this simply to defend Freemasonry, without seriously considering, or being wilfully blind to, why it is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[ess1113a]

No sir,
You dont get it. I am not embittered and hold no malice with the exception of ignorance. You have to admit if Freemasonry is so conspired against Catholic then we are doing a pretty poor job of it.

I sit with 85% senior citizens who talk about helping the poor and the needy and I dont hear or see conspiracy and deception. NOBODY I have ever sat with in lodge has ever mentioned any religion or church in any manner so I personally feel that there is no threat to me or the Church.

We have a huge threat to our Church from a variety of other sources but Freemasonry isnt one of them. I sit in mass with other Masons and we are labelled heretics and sinners. I sit in Knights of Columbus with several members that openly talk about how sore they are after their vasectomies, and we ignore the sinners in our midst. I sit in mass with the state senator (doctor) and his wife (OB/GYN) that conducts tubiligations and prescribes artificial birth control openly and freely, yet we dont address those issues cause they arent visible. I am not condemning either but the hypocrisy is apparent. Their actions and beliefs are between them and God.

I will accept the sinner label that you place on me because I am sinning by trying to be a better person. Until the Holy Catholic Church stations members at the condom aisle in the drug store, administers blood test to weed out artifical birth control users, before communion then I will tend to my own faults and you should administer to your own, if any.

The only reason I spoke up on this topic is because its wrong to condemn any organization without knowing all the facts. Thats all. I am not seeking new members nor do I particularly care if anyone joins after reading these. This is my attempt to educate the readers on fact versus fiction. I am not angry nor am I bitter towards you or any poster here. I know the truth and I know the facts from a perspective that few posters know. My apathy isnt total however. I will continue to celebrate the sacraments that my cardinal allows me to celebrate. Despite the many people that dont agree with him on here, he is a wise and holy man and that shows in his acceptance of many in his diocese.

As Cardinal Arize stated this week: The Church exists for God. God does not exist for the Church. We are mortal men in a mortal world trying to do our best for our God. The rule and guide to my faith and practice are the Ten Commandments and the Holy Bible. I dont see anything in either that is in contradiction to what I am as a Freemason. If that situation ever occurs then I will be the first to renounce my membership but until then I will remain committed to making myself a better person from what I am learning in both the Church and in my personal life.

I am always welcome to suggestions but I am not open to personal ridicule.
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” John 8:7
Feel free to refute and contradict anything I write but when you start getting personal then its time to disassociate myself from the forum. Hope to see you in mass. Feel free to introduce yourself and shake my hand at the sign of peace. You can recognize me by my ring. I am the Catholic and the sinner that we all are so I may blend in pretty well with the other sinners.

Future conversation is welcome but not on a public forum. I cannot convince you and you are failing in your attempt to sway me. I am not a great debater so that isnt anything new. Peace be with you always.

 

[Gricken]

I’ve met a mason online before. He was actually defending our church in front of atheist and the like. Later he gave me a private message saying that although he doesn’t believe exactly what I do, the conduct and lack of respect the others were showing had disgusted him,

 

[ess1113a]

I’ve met a mason online before. He was actually defending our church in front of atheist and the like. Later he gave me a private message saying that although he doesn’t believe exactly what I do, the conduct and lack of respect the others were showing had disgusted him,

I can see that easily. Thank you for sharing.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I will accept the sinner label that you place on me because I am sinning by trying to be a better person. Until the Holy Catholic Church stations members at the condom aisle in the drug store, administers blood test to weed out artifical birth control users, before communion then I will tend to my own faults and you should administer to your own, if any.

I never once in this entire thread called you a sinner. Please show me anywhere in my posts where I have called you a sinner. Nor have I in this entire thread claimed a Masonic conspiracy against the Church. I don’t believe in any conspiracies and I think my first post on this thread made that point; I had problems with the Masonic ritual and the oaths and what else I mentioned, not conspiracies.

I’m a sinner as well, but you in fact started with the ridicule on this thread by claiming that you were sure everyone was waiting to hear what I would have to say about Masonry (as a non-Mason obviously, but you called me a Mason). That was your sarcastic response to me when I asked you if you had any problems with the Masonic oaths as a Christian. You start off by ridiculing me as the “expert” and now you put words in my mouth that I have called you a sinner. I have actually avoided that term on this thread as I know we are all sinners and have thought about the first stone story throughout this thread. The subject of this thread is Masonry however.

In any event we’re not kids. If you don’t wish to deal with my questions by responding to the issues I raise in them - the ritual, the oaths, the search for God’s lost name in Masonry - then that’s fine. In all my posts, I have relied on Masonic authors or rituals to make my points, and have quoted Masonic authors at you. I never once used a non-Masonic source I think to make my point on why Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. Besides the Church, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, a Methodist study group, a part of the Lutheran Church have all come to the same conclusion that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity.

This doesn’t fly with you so, as you said, peace be with you then.

 

[1AugustSon7]

No sir,
You dont get it. I am not embittered and hold no malice with the exception of ignorance. You have to admit if Freemasonry is so conspired against Catholic then we are doing a pretty poor job of it.

I sit with 85% senior citizens who talk about helping the poor and the needy and I dont hear or see conspiracy and deception. NOBODY I have ever sat with in lodge has ever mentioned any religion or church in any manner so I personally feel that there is no threat to me or the Church.

We have a huge threat to our Church from a variety of other sources but Freemasonry isnt one of them…

This is spiritual blindnes. Read what you just wrote. If you do not see the problem as a Catholic Christian, then it is because of spiritual blindness, which is a punishment from God for violating your conscience.

You are a Christian and a Catholic. If you are sitting around with a bunch of men who do not know Christ as fully as the Catholic Church does -as fully as you can and are called to- and are not compelled by a profound movement within you [the Holy Spirit] to communicate at every opportunity your faith and joy to them - i.e., your RELIGION (which is a VIRTUE, by the way: religion is a virtue and is the aspect of the virtue of Justice wherein we render to God His due) - your Church - to them, then there is something seriously wrong there. You have exchanged the Creator for the creature - you have drawn a line on your own authority in the sand saying, “This is good enough for a man. If he speaks well and has good-will toward men then he is fine. This is sufficient.” However, you are robbing him of the greatest good and source of all good - be it brotherly love, good-will or charity/philanthropy, etc.- these things alone cannot and do not redeem us -we can’t do that ourselves no matter what effort or good works we do- nor can they satisfy our souls’ deepest needs and longings: our essential happiness. There is no light that can supplant the Light of Christ: there is absolutely no substitution for Him.

 

[Brendan_64]

The rule and guide to my faith and practice are the Ten Commandments and the Holy Bible. I dont see anything in either that is in contradiction to what I am as a Freemason. If that situation ever occurs then I will be the first to renounce my membership but until then I will remain committed to making myself a better person from what I am learning in both the Church and in my personal life.

As a Catholic, do you accept the authority of Rome? What you seem to be saying above is that it is up to YOU to decide whether or not an organisation you belong to is compatible with your membership of the Catholic Church. Rome has decided that being a Freemason is incompatible with being a Catholic, but you seem to be overuling the Vatican on this issue.

Like it or not, the governing body of our Church (which as Catholics we believe has supreme authority on Earth on such matters) has deemed that Freemasonry is not compatible with being a Roman Catholic, and that Freemasons cannot take Communion. You are not at liberty to simply ignore this should you feel that you personally disagree with it. As Roman Catholics we submit to the authority of Rome.

 

[ess1113a]

As a Catholic, do you accept the authority of Rome? What you seem to be saying above is that it is up to YOU to decide whether or not an organisation you belong to is compatible with your membership of the Catholic Church. Rome has decided that being a Freemason is incompatible with being a Catholic, but you seem to be overuling the Vatican on this issue.

Like it or not, the governing body of our Church (which as Catholics we believe has supreme authority on Earth on such matters) has deemed that Freemasonry is not compatible with being a Roman Catholic, and that Freemasons cannot take Communion. You are not at liberty to simply ignore this should you feel that you personally disagree with it. As Roman Catholics we submit to the authority of Rome.

I am not ignoring Rome. I am complying with the guidance from my Cardinal (see earlier posting)
Rome has never spoken to me personally but my Cardinal has.

 

[Brendan_64]

The Vatican may not have written to you personally, but you are still bound to obey Rome.

“The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

That quote was from a document prepared by none other than the man who is now our current Pope, in 1988, and approved and ordered by Pope John Paul II. You can’t get higher authority within the Chirch on earth than that.

As to anyone else giving another judgment at a more local level (i.e. the source you claim).

“It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above.”

In other words if any other priest, bishop, or even cardinal indicates otherwise to you, then they have absolutely no authority to do so.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

Can you really read that document and still insist that membership of the Freemasons doesn’t constitute disobedience of Rome?

The document is very clear, simple, and easy to understand. How can you possibly square (pardon the pun) that document (and it’s authority) with membership of the Masons?

 

[ess1113a]

The Church doesnt exist for Rome. Rome exists for the Church.
The Pope is a servant of the servants of Christ.
I truthfully dont think the Pope is aware of my personal existence but I know my parish priest does and is aware of my affiliations. To date every single one of my tithing checks have been cashed without any hesitation. Seems like a Church that is so adamant that I be excluded does a pretty good job of profiting from my tithing. Just a little issue with that.

I am fully prepared to comply with the edicts of the Pope when my Cardinal and priest tell me to. Not until then and not from the direction of a forum member. I guess I have until 28 February to comply.

Peace be with you all always

 

[Gricken]

President doesn’t know you. Doesn’t mean you aren’t bound by his laws just because he didn’t tell you personally.

 

[Brendan_64]

I am fully prepared to comply with the edicts of the Pope when my Cardinal and priest tell me to. Not until then and not from the direction of a forum member.

So you only have to obey Rome if instructions from the Pope have recieved the approval of your Parish Priest? I didn’t know he was a greater authority within the Church than the Pope.

The Church’s ruling on Freemasonry is very clear and simple and is laid out for all to see. You’re an intelligent man, you can read. If you choose to read what has clearly been laid down by our Pope, and ignore it because it doesn’t suit you, then that’s your choice I guess.

“The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

Your Parish Priest I presume has the moral and spiritual authority to over-rule that statement made by our Pope?

 

[draco_cupri]

The Church doesnt exist for Rome. Rome exists for the Church.
The Pope is a servant of the servants of Christ.
I truthfully dont think the Pope is aware of my personal existence but I know my parish priest does and is aware of my affiliations. To date every single one of my tithing checks have been cashed without any hesitation. Seems like a Church that is so adamant that I be excluded does a pretty good job of profiting from my tithing. Just a little issue with that.

I am fully prepared to comply with the edicts of the Pope when my Cardinal and priest tell me to. Not until then and not from the direction of a forum member. I guess I have until 28 February to comply.

Peace be with you all always

Respectfully, ess1113a, you call yourself a Roman Catholic. What sort of Roman Catholicism is this, where a cardinal and a priest determine for a lay person when he must obey the Pope and when he may freely disobey?

Here is a the solemn Catholic teaching to the contrary. You are not in fact at liberty to decide these things for yourself. Consider this a warning in the Holy Spirit.

everything2.com/title/Pastor+Aeternus

1. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

 

[ffg]

Just catching up on this one. A couple of thoughts.

I appreciate Ess and prior, BenJohnson for their (name removed by moderator)ut as it made the thread a great read.

It can be a testy subject, but as we can all see, it’s one that interests people.

I do hope that we can get an entry from an “ex-mason” be him Catholic or not, for a contribution about why he decided to leave.

Does anyone know if there is a group for Ex-masons, like AA?

I did find Ess’ last point interesting.

One of the key things that we all like about the Catholic Church is that the people change, but the teaching stays the same. It’s the foundation that never changes, so needed in today’s shaky world of trends.

Therefore, this discussion about listening to the Pope or the Cardinal or the Priest is simply irrelevant; the rule is the Catholic rule. Not the Catholics in Texas rule vs the Catholics in Canada.

No Catholic is complying with the Catholic rule about Freemasonry, if in the group. There should not be confusion here.

It should be noted that the Cardinal did say this in the Letter by acknowledging the rule “Catholics are prohibited”.

The rule doesn’t change simply because a Pope, Cardinal or Priest wants to hold out an olive branch.

The olive branch exists to help guide the wayward back, not accommodate them.

 

[Love4All]

The Church doesnt exist for Rome. Rome exists for the Church.
The Pope is a servant of the servants of Christ.
I truthfully dont think the Pope is aware of my personal existence but I know my parish priest does and is aware of my affiliations. To date every single one of my tithing checks have been cashed without any hesitation. Seems like a Church that is so adamant that I be excluded does a pretty good job of profiting from my tithing. Just a little issue with that.

I am fully prepared to comply with the edicts of the Pope when my Cardinal and priest tell me to. Not until then and not from the direction of a forum member. I guess I have until 28 February to comply.

Peace be with you all always

ess1113a, can you show me where in Catholic Doctrine it is stated that obedience to the Pope is conditional on a direct personal order from your local bishop or priest? That idea seems contradicted in what I have read about the Papacy, particularly the following. Also, I do not think the Papal prohibition against membership in a sect like Freemasonry is tied to the particular occupant, in other words, February 28 should have no significance at all to the question of whether a Catholic can be a Freemason.

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The pope’s immediate and ordinary jurisdiction

In the Constitution “Pastor Aeternus”, cap. 3, the pope is declared to possess ordinary, immediate, and episcopal jurisdiction over all the faithful:

We teach, moreover, and declare that, by the disposition of God, the Roman Church possesses supreme ordinary authority over all Churches, and that the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is true episcopal jurisdiction is immediate in its character (Enchir., n. 1827).

It is further added that this authority extends to all alike, both pastors and faithful, whether singly or collectively. An ordinary jurisdiction is one which is exercised by the holder, not by reason of any delegation, but in virtue of the office which he himself holds. All who acknowledge in the pope any primacy of jurisdiction acknowledge that jurisdiction to be ordinary. This point, therefore, does not call for discussion. That the papal authority is likewise immediate has, however, been called in question. Jurisdiction is immediate when its possessor stands in direct relation to those with whose oversight he is charged. If, on the other hand, the supreme authority can only deal directly with the proximate superiors, and not with the subjects save through their intervention, his power is not immediate but mediate. That the pope’s jurisdiction is not thus restricted appears from the analysis already given of Christ’s words to St. Peter. It has been shown that He conferred on him a primacy over the Church, which is universal in its scope, extending to all the Church’s members, and which needs the support of no other power. A primacy such as this manifestly gives to him and to his successors a direct authority over all the faithful. This is also implied in the words of the pastoral commission, “Feed my sheep”. The shepherd exercises immediate authority over all the sheep of his flock. Every member of the Church has been thus committed to Peter and those who follow him.

 

[traveler357]

So let’s say that one job applicant gives you a handshake that you recognize as being a Masonic handshake and the other job applicant doesn’t. All other things being equal, who would you pick for the job?

…

If everything else was equal, I would probably hire the one who did not give a Masonic handshake. Seeking preferential treatment on the basis of Masonic membership is decidedly un-Masonic. I heard a story of a judge-- who was a Mason-- going harder than usual on a Mason in court because he felt the Mason should “know better.”

I was an active Mason and past master until I recently withdrew from Masonry upon learning that the Church forbids Masonic membership to Catholics. I am in RCIA and looking forward to first communion at Easter.

 

[traveler357]

I agree with this. I hope it is possible to hash out what can be shared and found on the subject without closing the door on the discussion using statements that would only discourage communication. The quickest way to do this is to tell someone what they believe. It’s like the presidential debates when the guys are sitting next to each other telling us what the other guy thinks.
…

Well said!

There are reasonable and intelligent arguments to be made as to why a serious Christian (especially a Catholic) should not be a Mason. There are also some amazingly ignorant assertions that are made against Freemasonry. Unfortunately, the people who make the latter type of argument have no clue as to how preposterous they sound to the Mason. So, after reading some absurd claim about Masonry for the umpteenth time, we should not be too surprised if a Mason makes a testy reply.

Ironically, by repeating erroneous claims, the well-meaning Catholic undermines the effectiveness that the valid arguments might otherwise have upon the Christian Mason. When he sees that the anti-Masonic critic is wrong on one (or on several) points, as is often the case, the Mason will tend to dismiss everything, as being offered in bad faith.

 

[KyivAndrew]

There are reasonable and intelligent arguments to be made as to why a serious Christian (especially a Catholic) should not be a Mason.

traveler, thanks for joining the discussion. As a former Mason, would you like to give us some of these reasonable and intelligent arguments as to why a serious Christian should not be a Mason.

 

[hn160]

traveler, thanks for joining the discussion. As a former Mason, would you like to give us some of these reasonable and intelligent arguments as to why a serious Christian should not be a Mason.

As a former Mason, I agree with you why a Christian should not be a Mason.

 

[KyivAndrew]

As a former Mason, I agree with you why a Christian should not be a Mason.

Yes, thanks hn. Actually, I’m not a former Mason but was asking the poster above me, traveller, to give his reasons as a former Mason why Christianity is not compatible with Freemasonry. I’m familiar enough with masons and have on more than one occasion discussed with Masons, no matter how great guys they were, why the ritual and oaths in Freemasonry are incompatible with Christianity. Guys who went 32nd degree Scottish rite, one 33rd degree also exalted to Royal Arch in York Rite, etc. I’ve made my points earlier in this thread anyway.

hn160, it seems like some of the posters on this thread want to hear from former Masons themselves as to what conflicted in freemasonry with being a Christian. Do you have any thoughts? Did you stick with Blue Lodge, or did you go into the Scottish or York Rites after?

I mean the Scottish rite for instance is still putting out updated books on Pike and the rituals and instructions in Morals and Dogma, updated for the 21st century by a bloke who is furthering his Masonic knowledge by going to the Quatuor Coronati Lodge in England. Most guys in Blue Lodge probably never would have heard of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge Masonic Research Lodge but even in Blue Lodge the Masonic Monitors of states like Texas are clear about the pagan sparks for the rituals. Any Mason just has to read his Masonic Monitor and the gibberish about Egyptian mystery religions, etc. to see what the authors of Masonic ritual looked to for their inspiration.