The Mass and Protestant Services very different

[O.S.Luke]

Luther never said the word “consubstantiation.” It is also interesting to note that the Eastern Orthodox no longer use the word “transubstantiation.”

It is a difference between Western and Eastern thought.

Byzantines never dealt with the concept of ‘essence’ in the context of Eucharist (the Greek word would be ousia, I think). Thus, a concept would like transubstantiation (Gr: metousiosis - note the deriviative) would make no sense when speaking about a sacramental mystery. The concept of metabole is embraced, however. To be honest, terms like ‘trans-elementation’ (Gk: metastoicheiosis) or ‘re-ordination’ (Gk: metarrhythmisis) make much more sense when talking about matters involving mystery.

Catholic (and Western) scholar Edward Schillebeeckx may have coined an even better term: transsignification.

Western philosophy is just a poor discipline to characterize the Eucharist. I don’t see how you can use Thomism/Aristotelianism to explain a mystery!

O+

 

[Nan_S]

How is this a sacrifice on your part. Are you suffering or giving something up.

What exactly did you give, I thought you say you received Him.

I am sure there are some people who seriously feel they worship God in Protestant services.

So you offering Jesus to the Father is a sacrifice on your part?

I do not see where you are giving to God? The very nature of the mass is your receiving something, not giving.

You state you are offering something to God.

Except that Jesus is the one who offered Himself for the us. But what is sacrificial about the service on the part of the catholic? Is the catholic giving up something, suffering during the mass?

Would you rather be somewhere else, and therefore it is a sacrifice.

I see nothing the catholic offers God at all. I see the catholic just going to receive, just in a different format.

In a Catholic mass we offer ourselves to God in humility, fully aware of our shortcomings. With a most humble and submissive attitude, we worship God and we offer thanks to God for His glory and mercy.

In the opening of the mass, having confessed that we fall short, we offer anyway all that we have and have done, and ask God to use both our fruits and our failings for His glory. We praise and worship God for His infinite glory and mercy. We give our mind and soul to God by opening ourselves to His instruction when we listen to the proclamation of His word. The priest or deacon then speaks on the word of God, that we might better understand it and apply it.

We stand and proclaim the truths of the Christian faith, as handed down from the earliest days of the Church. We lift up very hearts and souls to God in thanksgiving and worship, asking that our spirits be strengthened and our own faith be increased.

Still we know that everything we have already offered or could offer is lacking. Therefore, we then kneel and re-present (we do not re-sacrifice) the one perfect and unending sacrifice that was done once for all and for all time, Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We share in community and fellowship the consecrated bread and wine, now transformed into His Most Precious Body and His Most Precious Blood. Having received spiritual sustenance we offer thanks once again, then go in love and fellowship to serve the world.

That’s what the Catholic mass is about, my friend. And no, when I am in mass, there is no place else I would like to be, except in heaven itself where I will see God face-to-face.

Nan

 

[ALLFORHIM]

In a Catholic mass we offer ourselves to God in humility, fully aware of our shortcomings. With a most humble and submissive attitude, we worship God and we offer thanks to God for His glory and mercy.

In the opening of the mass, having confessed that we fall short, we offer anyway all that we have and have done, and ask God to use both our fruits and our failings for His glory. We praise and worship God for His infinite glory and mercy. We give our mind and soul to God by opening ourselves to His instruction when we listen to the proclamation of His word. The priest or deacon then speaks on the word of God, that we might better understand it and apply it.

We stand and proclaim the truths of the Christian faith, as handed down from the earliest days of the Church. We lift up very hearts and souls to God in thanksgiving and worship, asking that our spirits be strengthened and our own faith be increased.

Still we know that everything we have already offered or could offer is lacking. Therefore, we then kneel and re-present (we do not re-sacrifice) the one perfect and unending sacrifice that was done once for all and for all time, Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We share in community and fellowship the consecrated bread and wine, now transformed into His Most Precious Body and His Most Precious Blood. Having received spiritual sustenance we offer thanks once again, then go in love and fellowship to serve the world.

That’s what the Catholic mass is about, my friend. And no, when I am in mass, there is no place else I would like to be, except in heaven itself where I will see God face-to-face.

Nan

Hi,
That is GREAT!. Sounds almost exactly like my evangelical/non-denom church service minus the transubstantiation .

 

[Nan_S]

Hi,
That is GREAT!. Sounds almost exactly like my evangelical/non-denom church service minus the transubstantiation .

Thank you.

I’d like to invite you to visit a Catholic church sometime. Our pews are filled with Catholics and non-Catholics on high holy days, particularly when Christmas falls on a weekday and many small Protestant churches don’t hold special Christmas-eve or Christmas-day servies.

Nan

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thank you.

I’d like to invite you to visit a Catholic church sometime. Our pews are filled with Catholics and non-Catholics on high holy days, particularly when Christmas falls on a weekday and many small Protestant churches don’t hold special Christmas-eve or Christmas-day servies.

Nan

Hi,
Thank you.I would invite you as well(to my church anyway) I have actually been many times. My husband and family are catholic. My kids go to C church when they are visiting with their grandparents. My husband is what you would call a non-practicing catholic. My in laws are devout catholics. I was suppose to go to a confirmation in Feb. but they are only allowed to have 5 people. So, I got ousted.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Catholic (and Western) scholar Edward Schillebeeckx may have coined an even better term: transsignification.

“Transignification” is not a good “replacement” for transubstantiation because the way I’ve read about it and heard it explained doesn’t seem to jive with an orthodox Catholic understanding. I’ve also discussed the issue with a priest, orthodox and competent in these matters, and he agreed that “transignification” is not an adequate way of describing the Eucharist.

Schillebeeckx’s theology isn’t erroneous in all matters (or at least I don’t think it all is, I could be wrong), but there is a reason the Vatican silenced him.

 

[O.S.Luke]

“Transignification” is not a good “replacement” for transubstantiation because the way I’ve read about it and heard it explained doesn’t seem to jive with an orthodox Catholic understanding. I’ve also discussed the issue with a priest, orthodox and competent in these matters, and he agreed that “transignification” is not an adequate way of describing the Eucharist.

Schillebeeckx’s theology isn’t erroneous in all matters (or at least I don’t think it all is, I could be wrong), but there is a reason the Vatican silenced him.

Schillebeeckx has never been silenced or censured by the Vatican.

There is no way to adequately describe the Eucharist. The Eucharist is a mystery… and words are at best inadequate. And that’s the point with the dogma of transubstantiation - it goes over the line in my opinion is trying to explain away a mystery that cannot be adequately explained to begin with, nor SHOULD be! God is supernatural - and by the mystery of faith, ordinary bread and wine become for us the extraordinary body and blood of Christ. Period.

That explanation worked well for 11 centuries. Why we had to justify ourselves to the world of science and philosophy is beyond me.

 

[Mary3]

So what i get is that Catholics to go church to give to God, and protestants to go church to get from God. Am I the only one that thinks this? Am I totally wrong?

Here’s something that happened in my town today. We live in the part of the country that’s currently being blasted by an arctic ice storm. All of the local news stations were streaming a list of church closures today (Sunday). 100% of the 60+ church closures were Protestant churches. Not a single Catholic parish cancelled a Mass, as far as I can tell.

Is it a difference in purpose, or is it because priests usually live in walking distance of the church building? I don’t know, but I tend to think it’s because the Mass must go on, no matter how few or many people come, because it gives worship that is rightly owed to God.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Here’s something that happened in my town today. We live in the part of the country that’s currently being blasted by an arctic ice storm. All of the local news stations were streaming a list of church closures today (Sunday). 100% of the 60+ church closures were Protestant churches. Not a single Catholic parish cancelled a Mass, as far as I can tell.

Is it a difference in purpose, or is it because priests usually live in walking distance of the church building? I don’t know, but I tend to think it’s because the Mass must go on, no matter how few or many people come, because it gives worship that is rightly owed to God.

Hi,
I would venture to say it is both. My church is in the middle of no one being able to walk to it. So if the weather is bad and even the minister lives 20 min. away then church cannot go on. Im sure God is fine with this. It certainly would not be worth the lives of anyone.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Schillebeeckx has never been silenced or censured by the Vatican.

My mistake, that is true. He wasn’t silenced or censured but he was ordered to make clarifications.

There is no way to adequately describe the Eucharist. The Eucharist is a mystery… and words are at best inadequate. And that’s the point with the dogma of transubstantiation - it goes over the line in my opinion is trying to explain away a mystery that cannot be adequately explained to begin with, nor SHOULD be! God is supernatural - and by the mystery of faith, ordinary bread and wine become for us the extraordinary body and blood of Christ. Period.

That explanation worked well for 11 centuries. Why we had to justify ourselves to the world of science and philosophy is beyond me.

Faith and reason can go hand in hand and the Catholic Church has decided that transubstantiation is a good way to describe what happens to the gifts at the Consecration. I think it is foolish to try to pull the, “I dunno, its just a mystery…” card for everything. Granted, we can’ t know every single thing about a mystery but we can know something about it. A mystery is something that we can continuously delve into and the issue will never be exhausted.

Pope Paul VI rejected the errors of transignification and transfinalization in his encyclical, Mysterium Fidei. Also, according to Fr. John Hardon, S. J., Fr. Karl Rahner was the proponent of transignification and Fr. Edward Schillibeeckx O.P. was the proponent of transfinalization. Either way, both are modernist errors.

 

[water]

Today, my priest said people should not not think the Church as a “religious service” but a “disciple service”.

He went on and said many people come to the church thinking that the Church is a service place and that they come as customers and the church has to please them as if “customers are first and they are always right”. They believe they come to the Church to get what they want.

He then said what he said when he first came to the parish in 1999 that he came here not to please the people but to help them be holy. He would not ask more than what Jesus asked, but he would not ask less than what Jesus asked either.

 

[mozart-250]

Most hardcore Evangelical Christians or Born Again Christians believe that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and that we worship Mary. One even claim that Catholics believe the Pope to be God.

Just a point of corrections…

Evangelicals/Born Again Christians are divided on the Catholic Church. For every Jack Chick/John MacArthur type, there are also Billy Graham/Charles Colson types.

From where I have been, I have seen more of the latter, but I admittedly others may have different experiences. Also, Vermont is not Alabama.

 

[Sabda]

Here’s something that happened in my town today. We live in the part of the country that’s currently being blasted by an arctic ice storm. All of the local news stations were streaming a list of church closures today (Sunday). 100% of the 60+ church closures were Protestant churches. Not a single Catholic parish cancelled a Mass, as far as I can tell.

Is it a difference in purpose, or is it because priests usually live in walking distance of the church building? I don’t know, but I tend to think it’s because the Mass must go on, no matter how few or many people come, because it gives worship that is rightly owed to God.

Where do you live? I live in the Tulsa Ok, diocese. I noticed the exact same thing. All the churches that were closed were Protestant. No Catholic or Orthodox Churches were closed. I don’t recall seeing any Lutheran or Episcoplian churches closed either. It was mostly Baptist/Pentecostal. I did see one Anglican church closed. The only thing that was closed as far as the Catholic Church is concerned were the ccd classes.

Not all priest live with in walking distants of the parish. Our priest has 3 parishes that he serves. All of these parishes are at least a 30 min drive from each other. Not one of those 3 parishes was on the list.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just a point of corrections…

Evangelicals/Born Again Christians are divided on the Catholic Church. For every Jack Chick/John MacArthur type, there are also Billy Graham/Charles Colson types.

From where I have been, I have seen more of the latter, but I admittedly others may have different experiences. Also, Vermont is not Alabama.

They are divided, that I know of. When I was in Ft. Drum with the 10th MTN in Iraq, I know one Evangelical Baptist. We have some discussion, and I share my faith and he shared his.

We point out what we have in common rather than what divides us.

He admire my zeal for my Catholic faith and the love of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I admire his love of Jesus Christ, and Scripture.

 

[JWilson]

We protestants are very divided on the catholic faith and obviously very divided in ourselves.We have so many different denominations I can’t keep up with them.This is why I prefer to just call myself a Christian as it makes it so much easier than to argue back and forth with my protestant and catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.Only my belief,but I think that if we continue to bicker over our differences and not focus on what we do have in common the fighting will never end.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

We protestants are very divided on the catholic faith and obviously very divided in ourselves.We have so many different denominations I can’t keep up with them.This is why I prefer to just call myself a Christian as it makes it so much easier than to argue back and forth with my protestant and catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.Only my belief,but I think that if we continue to bicker over our differences and not focus on what we do have in common the fighting will never end.

I second that!!

 

[AlegreFe]

Hi,
I would venture to say it is both. My church is in the middle of no one being able to walk to it. So if the weather is bad and even the minister lives 20 min. away then church cannot go on. Im sure God is fine with this. It certainly would not be worth the lives of anyone.
(emphasis added)

I would never say that about the Catholic Mass. I would die to participate in the Mass. Short of being -]dead/-] alive and actually in Heaven with God, we are in Heaven here on earth when we are in Mass. See all of Revelations!

If I can’t make it to Mass on Sunday because of weather or if I’m very sick, then it would not be considered a mortal sin. Otherwise, it’s a mortal sin, but that is not the driving force for me to be at Mass. Jesus is the driving force for me to want to be at Mass! I love being at Mass! And Mass is worth everything, including my life!

 

[Tonks40]

Like in most love-relationships, a husband gives himself to his wife, a mother gives herself to her children, and vice-versa. In the Mass, Christ gives himself through the Mass, especially through the Eucharist. We give of ourselves to Him and offer up our joys, our sufferings - our lives - to honor, worship and praise Him. He receives us - and we receive Him!

The Mass is like a two-way love highway! I wouldn’t have it any other way!

 

[AlegreFe]

Like in most love-relationships, a husband gives himself to his wife, a mother gives herself to her children, and vice-versa. In the Mass, Christ gives himself through the Mass, especially through the Eucharist. We give of ourselves to Him and offer up our joys, our sufferings - our lives - to honor, worship and praise Him. He receives us - and we receive Him!

The Mass is like a two-way love highway! I wouldn’t have it any other way!

The Mass is Heaven on earth… literally!! We are at the Lambs Supper and we are happy to be called to the Lambs Supper!

 

[JWilson]

The Mass is Heaven on earth… literally!

This statement is not true.As great as taking part in communion is it is not heaven on earth.It is something we do in rememberance of Him but Jesus Himself said that His kingdom is not of this world.It is in many other places in the Bible as well.I can understand your joy and jubilance to partake in the Holy communion but the phrase "heaven on earth "is untrue.It’s a contradiction in terms.God bless.